Christian Discussion Thread IV

[Benuty]

We view speaking in tongues as a spiritual moment that affects you whenever the Holy Ghost moves you (or "descends" like during the biblical Pentecost). That being said, there is no set time, because we believe that when you speak in tongues you have surrendered yourself in that moment to the Holy Spirit, and you can't choose or will yourself to be moved.

Speaking in tongues often happens during prayer, especially when someone is receiving prayer in the church. It is not uncommon for someone to stand up and begin speaking in tongues in the middle of a sermon.

I remember people doing that at my old church. Pretty fake.

Epileptic seizures are hardly fake. Or so I have been told as for some of the fits encountered during speaking tongues.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

All I know is Jesus wasn't real and all priests are pedophiles.

Alas, now I can give up this life of crime.

[Othelos]

I remember people doing that at my old church. Pretty fake.

Epileptic seizures are hardly fake. Or so I have been told as for some of the fits encountered during speaking tongues.

They don't seize, but they do get very emotional sometimes and blab gibberish. One time this woman 'received a message from god' and the whole church got quiet to hear what she was saying. I think it's a form of hysteria, not something spiritual.

[Constantinopolis]

On a related note, I think it might be interesting to discuss the various forms of "audience participation" (for lack of a better term) during Christian services. What do people in the congregation do during services, in your Church/denomination?

In the Orthodox Church, people can either sing the hymns and responses, or stand in quiet prayer/contemplation/meditation. There is a choir composed of those who want to sing, but this is a rather fluid group in most parish churches. Usually, people can walk over to the choir area to sing for a time, then walk to another part of the church to quietly pray or meditate if they wish. Only the big cathedrals have professional choirs with a well-defined membership. The open floor plan of most churches allows people to move around largely unhindered during services, unless the church is especially full (which happens at the major feast days). Also, in many parishes there is a tradition for the entire congregation to sing or chant certain prayers (most often the Lord's Prayer and/or the Creed), but this varies from parish to parish.

Personally, I actually prefer to stand in prayer or contemplation rather than to sing. I find that singing takes my focus away from what is being said and makes me focus instead on making sure that I hit the right notes (which I'm not very good at doing, anyway). Standing quietly allows me to pray, and when I am not praying I can contemplate the particular event or person that the Church is celebrating that day, or take in the chants and hymns, or (at Vespers) try to remember as many of my recent sins as I can in order to repent and confess them, or just thank God for all my blessings, etc.

[Comalander]

Well, I knew Pentecostals were kind of the black sheep, but I didn't know you felt so strongly about it

Speaking in tongues is common in the bible, and calling someone else's moment with the Holy Spirit "fake" or an "epileptic seizure" seems rather intolerant and - frankly - unChristian.

[Benuty]

Well, I knew Pentecostals were kind of the black sheep, but I didn't know you felt so strongly about it

Speaking in tongues is common in the bible, and calling someone else's moment with the Holy Spirit "fake" or an "epileptic seizure" seems rather intolerant and - frankly - unChristian.

Kind of hard to be "un", when a person is not even one. Besides skepticism in dosage is healthy, and keeps the mind from blindly stagnating.

[Comalander]

We view speaking in tongues as a spiritual moment that affects you whenever the Holy Ghost moves you (or "descends" like during the biblical Pentecost). That being said, there is no set time, because we believe that when you speak in tongues you have surrendered yourself in that moment to the Holy Spirit, and you can't choose or will yourself to be moved.

Speaking in tongues often happens during prayer, especially when someone is receiving prayer in the church. It is not uncommon for someone to stand up and begin speaking in tongues in the middle of a sermon.

I see. So this is an act that interrupts something else which was going on at the time (like a prayer, or a sermon)? Then does the prayer/sermon continue while a person is speaking in tongues, or does the congregation wait for him or her to finish first?

I asked about there being a set time because I have been to Quaker services, and they set aside a time to wait for the Holy Spirit to move them to speak. They also do not believe that they can choose or will themselves to be moved, but the idea is that they open themselves to the Holy Spirit and at least one or two of them will typically feel moved to speak after some time. Sometimes none of them will feel moved, and that's ok too.

If it's a prayer, it's usually taken that the speaking in tongues is part of the prayer, and it continues, as when there is prayed you will likely hear multiple people praying out loud at once.

If it's a sermon, there would likely be a pause as people pray an contemplate themselves as another person speaks in tongues.

Do note that there is a lack of uniformity within the Pentecostal denomination more so than almost any other, so I speak from personal experience in the many Pentecostal churches I have attended in the American South.



Please excuse the grammatical errors and the such, I'm on mobile.

[Comalander]

Well, I knew Pentecostals were kind of the black sheep, but I didn't know you felt so strongly about it

Speaking in tongues is common in the bible, and calling someone else's moment with the Holy Spirit "fake" or an "epileptic seizure" seems rather intolerant and - frankly - unChristian.

Kind of hard to be "un", when a person is not even one. Besides skepticism in dosage is healthy, and keeps the mind from blindly stagnating.

Well this is a "Christian discussion thread", and you should at least have the decency to respect the beliefs of Christian denominations if you wish to take part in the discussion. I understand not everyone agrees with Pentecostalism, but you don't have to demean 500 million people as "epileptics" and "fakers" just because you yourself have a different opinion.

[Benuty]

Kind of hard to be "un", when a person is not even one. Besides skepticism in dosage is healthy, and keeps the mind from blindly stagnating.

Well this is a "Christian discussion thread", and you should at least have the decency to respect the beliefs of Christian denominations if you wish to take part in the discussion. I understand not everyone agrees with Pentecostalism, but you don't have to demean 500 million people as "epileptics" and "fakers" just because you yourself have a different opinion.

Last time I checked there hasn't been a genocide so where are the other 1.6 billion?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well, I knew Pentecostals were kind of the black sheep, but I didn't know you felt so strongly about it

Speaking in tongues is common in the bible, and calling someone else's moment with the Holy Spirit "fake" or an "epileptic seizure" seems rather intolerant and - frankly - unChristian.

Yes the words "speaking in tongues" appear in the bible, but there's great debate whether that means what you are saying it means.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

What is the Orthodox position on the relation between divine grace and free will?

Oh my favorite question. Essentially, the Orthodox believe that to be on the path to Salvation, divine grace and free will are required. God will help us achieve salvation, but we must decide wether we want salvation. We need to try to achieve salvation. Salvation is not merely 'by faith alone'. A wonderful example of this Synergy can be found in the Gospel according to Mathew. "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him." (KJV 9:9). As you can see, Jesus calls upon Mathew to follow him (divine grace). But it is not merely divine grace alone, as Mathew could have easily refused. However, "Mathew arose, and followed him" (free will).

But doesn't the power of Divine grace make it such that God makes one choose salvation (irresitible grace), as per Paul's doctrine of Predestination?

[Comalander]

Well this is a "Christian discussion thread", and you should at least have the decency to respect the beliefs of Christian denominations if you wish to take part in the discussion. I understand not everyone agrees with Pentecostalism, but you don't have to demean 500 million people as "epileptics" and "fakers" just because you yourself have a different opinion.

Last time I checked there hasn't been a genocide so where are the other 1.6 billion?

I was speaking for the 500 million Pentecostals.

[Comalander]

Well, I knew Pentecostals were kind of the black sheep, but I didn't know you felt so strongly about it

Speaking in tongues is common in the bible, and calling someone else's moment with the Holy Spirit "fake" or an "epileptic seizure" seems rather intolerant and - frankly - unChristian.

Yes the words "speaking in tongues" appear in the bible, but there's great debate whether that means what you are saying it means.

And I would love to have a civil discussion about that point, where everyone's beliefs are respected.

[Pope Joan]

I really like the Mennonites. Back when I had not yet decided on my faith and I was considering Protestantism, I thought the best Protestant denominations were the Mennonites and the Society of Friends (Quakers).

You seem to be implying that Mennonites do not consider themselves Protestants, though. Is this true?

Yes, pretty much.

Mennonites are not a credal church, so we do not have to sign on to any particular faith statement.

But we generally consider ourselves a "Third Way", between the good works of the Catholics and the minimal hierarchy of the Protestants. We are quite democratic, even perhaps "tribal" in that we tend to govern by consensus.

You will usually not see a cross in our churches, at least not in the conference where I served. Instead, there will be a huge mural behind the altar, either of the good shepherd returning a lost lamb, or of Jesus standing at a door and knocking.

Here is a little sample of our typical tendencies, from the website Third Way Cafe:
http://www.thirdway.com/menno/?Topic=23|Basic+Beliefs

[Neo Rome Republic]

Yes, southern Baptist.

However, I am not a Christian Fundamentalist, unlike a lot of other Baptists.

From what I've seen, you're a very lax Christian with lukewarm positions on a lot of things, excluding parts of the Bible you like and parts of the Bible you don't like stay.

In all honesty, that makes me angry when you have these lukewarm positioned Christians who would rather cling to secularism instead of Christianity.

And that opens up my initial question, why don't you lukewarm positioned Christians just be a theist that follows tenants of Christianity instead of declaring yourself a Christian?

Given that the Religion of Christianity has over 40,000 different denominations, there will be many differing groups of Christians, who have a different take on Christianity than you do. For example, the Episcopalians will have a more Liberal view of gay marriage, as opposed to Catholics. The only thing that requires people to be Christian is to accept the divinity of Christ and accept the Bible as the word of God, whether you or anyone else considers them "True Christians" based on your particular denomination out of the 40,000 is irrelevant.

[Othelos]

Well, I knew Pentecostals were kind of the black sheep, but I didn't know you felt so strongly about it

Speaking in tongues is common in the bible, and calling someone else's moment with the Holy Spirit "fake" or an "epileptic seizure" seems rather intolerant and - frankly - unChristian.

oh no whatever will I do??

Seriously, though, i've been to plenty of different churches, and the only ones where people ever spoke in tongues were in the Pentecostal ones. So idk how 'real' it is.

[Respubliko de Libereco]

Yes, pretty much.

Mennonites are not a credal church, so we do not have to sign on to any particular faith statement.

But we generally consider ourselves a "Third Way", between the good works of the Catholics and the minimal hierarchy of the Protestants. We are quite democratic, even perhaps "tribal" in that we tend to govern by consensus.

You will usually not see a cross in our churches, at least not in the conference where I served. Instead, there will be a huge mural behind the altar, either of the good shepherd returning a lost lamb, or of Jesus standing at a door and knocking.

Here is a little sample of our typical tendencies, from the website Third Way Cafe:
http://www.thirdway.com/menno/?Topic=23|Basic+Beliefs

Both of the Mennonite Brethren churches I have attended have/had crosses, albeit very simple ones.

[Draica]

From what I've seen, you're a very lax Christian with lukewarm positions on a lot of things, excluding parts of the Bible you like and parts of the Bible you don't like stay.

In all honesty, that makes me angry when you have these lukewarm positioned Christians who would rather cling to secularism instead of Christianity.

And that opens up my initial question, why don't you lukewarm positioned Christians just be a theist that follows tenants of Christianity instead of declaring yourself a Christian?

Do not try to argue with me. I have already stopped taking you seriously, based on the way you have debated in other threads.

Ok, good for you, you have a right not to take me seriously(though I am a bit offended since you're the first one who will not take anything I say seriously in a permanent tense in both Real life AND NS.) But my question is, why do you exclude parts of the Bible you like and parts you don't like?

[Draica]

From what I've seen, you're a very lax Christian with lukewarm positions on a lot of things, excluding parts of the Bible you like and parts of the Bible you don't like stay.

In all honesty, that makes me angry when you have these lukewarm positioned Christians who would rather cling to secularism instead of Christianity.

And that opens up my initial question, why don't you lukewarm positioned Christians just be a theist that follows tenants of Christianity instead of declaring yourself a Christian?

Given that the Religion of Christianity has over 40,000 different denominations, there will be many differing groups of Christians, who have a different take on Christianity than you do. For example, the Episcopalians will have a more Liberal view of gay marriage, as opposed to Catholics. The only thing that requires people to be Christian is to accept the divinity of Christ and accept the Bible as the word of God, whether you or anyone else considers them "True Christians" based on your particular denomination out of the 40,000 is irrelevant.

But it doesn't sit well with me to have "Christians" justifying the taking of drugs, pre-marital sex and other things that clearly defy the morals Christ taught and that the Bible teaches. It doesn't sit well with me to have these "Christians" excluding parts of the Bible they like and parts they don't like.

This is why I like the Catholic Church and considered conversion, they KNOW where they stand. They KNOW who they are. They KNOW what they believe. Everyone else? Most of everyone else is chaotic. The Catholic Church has order. A demon said to Jesus in Mark 5:9 - And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

He said we are legion, we come in order, we stand united. And, according to the Bible, the gates of Hades will not stand against the Church - The Catholic Church has awesome reasoning here.

See, in the Bible you will never see a witch fighting against another witch. You will never see a demon fighting against another demon. Only when you look at Church folks do you see Methodists fighting against baptists and baptists fighting against methods, pentecostals fighting against Lutherans, lutherans fighting against -..And the list goes on.

In the Catholic Church we see order. That's what I like about them.

[Othelos]

Yes, southern Baptist.

However, I am not a Christian Fundamentalist, unlike a lot of other Baptists.

From what I've seen, you're a very lax Christian with lukewarm positions on a lot of things, excluding parts of the Bible you like and parts of the Bible you don't like stay.

In all honesty, that makes me angry when you have these lukewarm positioned Christians who would rather cling to secularism instead of Christianity.

And that opens up my initial question, why don't you lukewarm positioned Christians just be a theist that follows tenants of Christianity instead of declaring yourself a Christian?

Literally every christian is like that

i mean, you don't follow all of the OT rules, do you?

[Othelos]

Given that the Religion of Christianity has over 40,000 different denominations, there will be many differing groups of Christians, who have a different take on Christianity than you do. For example, the Episcopalians will have a more Liberal view of gay marriage, as opposed to Catholics. The only thing that requires people to be Christian is to accept the divinity of Christ and accept the Bible as the word of God, whether you or anyone else considers them "True Christians" based on your particular denomination out of the 40,000 is irrelevant.

But it doesn't sit well with me to have "Christians" justifying the taking of drugs, pre-marital sex and other things that clearly defy the morals Christ taught and that the Bible teaches. It doesn't sit well with me to have these "Christians" excluding parts of the Bible they like and parts they don't like.

It's called free will, man. I should start a denomination called Free-willism.

[Shalona]

But it doesn't sit well with me to have "Christians" justifying the taking of drugs, pre-marital sex and other things that clearly defy the morals Christ taught and that the Bible teaches. It doesn't sit well with me to have these "Christians" excluding parts of the Bible they like and parts they don't like.

It's called free will, man. I should start a denomination called Free-willism.

Sign me up.

[Draica]

But it doesn't sit well with me to have "Christians" justifying the taking of drugs, pre-marital sex and other things that clearly defy the morals Christ taught and that the Bible teaches. It doesn't sit well with me to have these "Christians" excluding parts of the Bible they like and parts they don't like.

It's called free will, man. I should start a denomination called Free-willism.

Oh, of course they can do it, but it just doesn't sit well with me my friend. It bothers me that people do stuff that is clearly against the will of God and proclaim to be Christians. That's disturbing to me.

[Shalona]

It's called free will, man. I should start a denomination called Free-willism.

Oh, of course they can do it, but it just doesn't sit well with me my friend. It bothers me that people do stuff that is clearly against the will of God and proclaim to be Christians. That's disturbing to me.

Why does your opinion matter? Let Him do the judgement.

[Draica]

From what I've seen, you're a very lax Christian with lukewarm positions on a lot of things, excluding parts of the Bible you like and parts of the Bible you don't like stay.

In all honesty, that makes me angry when you have these lukewarm positioned Christians who would rather cling to secularism instead of Christianity.

And that opens up my initial question, why don't you lukewarm positioned Christians just be a theist that follows tenants of Christianity instead of declaring yourself a Christian?

Literally every christian is like that

i mean, you don't follow all of the OT rules, do you?

Most of the "laws" in the OT were for a certain group of people, not universial like the Ten Commandments or others in the NT. The shellfish law, clothing laws were specifically for the "Children of Israel"(jews), stoning laws were also for a specific group of people. So no, I do not follow ALL of them, but the ones I am obligated to follow? Yes.