Israel / Gaza / Hamas Mega-Thread

[Rehansu Tir]

I don't defend the settlements, I think they should be removed, but I also don't defend palestinian violence against settlers or against civilians inside israel. Especially knowing that the settlement/settler issue would be resolved through a peace agreement. As I stated in an earlier post: the settlements are not a real obstacle to peace.

"Hey, sorry we are bulldozing your homes and taking your land and refuse to leave. Let's negotiate on those terms!"

that's an idiotic statement. the existence of the settlements does not prevent negotiations, nor does their existence today require that they must exist after a peace agreement is reached and implemented.

By that reasoning the israelis could say: "sorry we can't negotiate peace with the palestinians because of all the israeli civilians who have been killed by palestinian terrorists." The dead are more certain not to return than the land occupied by the settlers is not to be back in the possession of the palestinians.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Immigration is not colonization. You need power, you need force to colonize.

By that definition the israelis are not colonizers, but immigrants. They immigrated slowly over 80 years to the palestinian mandate, starting long before the mandate existed, while it was still an Ottoman province that included what is now jordan and parts of sourthern lebanon and southwestern syria. and when they population reach a threshhold, they established their own state, with the support of international bodies and foerign governments in the territory where they represented the majority. They certainly didn't have the force to colonize or even to defend their new state, as they and everyone else, the palestinians included, expected that their state would be defeated in short order.

I highly doubt the Palestinian people left their homes and their homeland to "make room" for fighters.

you can doubt it all you want, but it's been thoroughly research and written about by many scholars from all over the world. The findings have been consistent that a significant number, at least half, of the palestinian "refugees" left at the urging of their leaders and the military to avoid getting caught in the arab attack on israel.

But the state of Israel is a colonizing nation. It's an imperialist nation. Regardless of whether there were Jewish people immigrating to that area before Israel, Israel is an imperialist force. The government of Israel routinely uses its military to attack Palestinians. They routinely ignore the bulldozing of houses. Israel takes land away from Palestinian people. The government of Israel is supported by all major powers in the world.

Any sources to provide of all these "scholars." Also, you claimed they left to "make room" for the "Arab attack." If they left for their safety, they are refugees, regardless.

[Scholmeria]

They have gone through much like the holocault and a little compasion for them wont kill you.

Sweetie, being anti-Zionism/pro-Palestinian /=/ hating Jewish people.
Nor does hating Israel /=/ hating Jewish people.
If you can't have a conversation with us without calling us antisemitic then no dialogue can happen.
Also, likewise, a little compassion for the Palestinian people won't kill you.[/quote]
I give my best but unfortunately I get always convinced that the Palestinians are the one who are full of hatred. They were the one who were dancing during 9/11.

Besides all evidence that Israel wants peace you are still blaming the poor Jews for defend themself from Hamas. The pnly explanation is that you are anti-semitic and even if Israel gave a state to the Palestinians it would still be considered a rogue state.

[Rehansu Tir]

Why do you hate Israel and the Jewish people?

They have gone through much like the holocault and a little compasion for them wont kill you.

Why do Israel apologists keep bringing up the Holocaust like it just happened yesterday? And by "a little compassion" do you mean "look the other way when they do the exact same shit to the Palestinians"?

Why do palestinian apologists keep bringing up the nakba like it happened yesterday? and why do you ignore the fact that the palestinians/arabs are responsible for the nakba happening in the first place?

[Scholmeria]

Why do Israel apologists keep bringing up the Holocaust like it just happened yesterday? And by "a little compassion" do you mean "look the other way when they do the exact same shit to the Palestinians"?

Why do palestinian apologists keep bringing up the nakba like it happened yesterday? and why do you ignore the fact that the palestinians/arabs are responsible for the nakba happening in the first place?

Hvala.

As of you were reading my mind.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

"Hey, sorry we are bulldozing your homes and taking your land and refuse to leave. Let's negotiate on those terms!"

that's an idiotic statement. the existence of the settlements does not prevent negotiations, nor does their existence today require that they must exist after a peace agreement is reached and implemented.

By that reasoning the israelis could say: "sorry we can't negotiate peace with the palestinians because of all the israeli civilians who have been killed by palestinian terrorists." The dead are more certain not to return than the land occupied by the settlers is not to be back in the possession of the palestinians.

I haven't insulted you, and there's no reason to insult me. Neither is it an "idiotic statement."
Why would you trust a government that doesn't stop its people from taking your land and bulldozing your houses? If you're coming into negotiations with you already losing lands and already having the lower hand, than how is there to be negotiations? A good place for Israel to show that they are actually dedicated to a two-state solution and negotiations would be removing their ILLEGAL settlements, stopping their citizens from those actions, and STOP BUILDING NEW ONES.

[Gauthier]

Why do Israel apologists keep bringing up the Holocaust like it just happened yesterday? And by "a little compassion" do you mean "look the other way when they do the exact same shit to the Palestinians"?

Why do palestinian apologists keep bringing up the nakba like it happened yesterday? and why do you ignore the fact that the palestinians/arabs are responsible for the nakba happening in the first place?

Nakba? What's that?

Nice try at a false equivalence by the way.

[United Marxist Nations]

Why do palestinian apologists keep bringing up the nakba like it happened yesterday? and why do you ignore the fact that the palestinians/arabs are responsible for the nakba happening in the first place?

Nakba? What's that?

Nice try at a false equivalence by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

[Gauthier]

Nakba? What's that?

Nice try at a false equivalence by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

Ah.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

I give my best but unfortunately I get always convinced that the Palestinians are the one who are full of hatred. They were the one who were dancing during 9/11.

Besides all evidence that Israel wants peace you are still blaming the poor Jews for defend themself from Hamas. The pnly explanation is that you are anti-semitic and even if Israel gave a state to the Palestinians it would still be considered a rogue state.

I don't give a shit if they were as you claim "dancing during 9/11" they have a right to express opinions in such a way.

What evidence is that? By continuing building new illegal settlements? Killing a Palestinian child every three days? Bulldozing homes? Seizing and arresting mass amounts of Palestinians? Denying Palestinians rights within Israel?

Nope, I'm not, sorry. That's not "the only explanation." I have nothing against Jews, I have everything against the state of Israel and it's awful actions against Palestinians and its flagrant abuse of international law.
So you're not for a two-state solution, like I have routinely said that I am? You're for a one-majority apartheid state?

[Rehansu Tir]

But the state of Israel is a colonizing nation. It's an imperialist nation. Regardless of whether there were Jewish people immigrating to that area before Israel, Israel is an imperialist force.

Why? How? By the definition you provided they aren't. Do you now have a different definition that you would like to use for israel and no one else?

They routinely ignore the bulldozing of houses.

For the love of... the palestinian authorities regularly bulldoze palestinian houses as well.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle ... s_in_gaza/

"If they left for their safety, they are refugees, regardless."

No, if they left to protect themselves from the israelis/jews they are refugees. if they left to make it easier for their own military to attack and kill israeli/jews, they are complicit in the war.

But even so, those "refugees" are almost all dead. The vast majority of people living in palestinian "refugee camps" today have never even seen the WB or gaza, let alone israel. The UN had to twist and reinterpret their own definitions of refugees so much to make these individuals qualify as refugees, that they had to create a separate agency to address palestinian "refugees" than the one that addresses and serves all other refugees in the world. No other group in the world is permitted to use the definition of "refugee" that has been created for the palestinians.

[Scholmeria]

I don't give a shit if they were as you claim "dancing during 9/11" they have a right to express opinions in such a way.

What evidence is that? By continuing building new illegal settlements? Killing a Palestinian child every three days? Bulldozing homes? Seizing and arresting mass amounts of Palestinians? Denying Palestinians rights within Israel?

Nope, I'm not, sorry. That's not "the only explanation." I have nothing against Jews, I have everything against the state of Israel and it's awful actions against Palestinians and its flagrant abuse of international law.
So you're not for a two-state solution, like I have routinely said that I am? You're for a one-majority apartheid state?

So you dont care that they were gloating for alqaida? Good than so did Israelis had a right to express their opinion in Palestine.

Arabs in Israel have more rights than in Saudi Arabia and you are just poisoned by neo-nazi propagnda. But unfortunately for you the golden ages of Auschwitz are gone forever.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

But the state of Israel is a colonizing nation. It's an imperialist nation. Regardless of whether there were Jewish people immigrating to that area before Israel, Israel is an imperialist force.

Why? How? By the definition you provided they aren't. Do you now have a different definition that you would like to use for israel and no one else?

They routinely ignore the bulldozing of houses.

For the love of... the palestinian authorities regularly bulldoze palestinian houses as well.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle ... s_in_gaza/

"If they left for their safety, they are refugees, regardless."

No, if they left to protect themselves from the israelis/jews they are refugees. if they left to make it easier for their own military to attack and kill israeli/jews, they are complicit in the war.

But even so, those "refugees" are almost all dead. The vast majority of people living in palestinian "refugee camps" today have never even seen the WB or gaza, let alone israel. The UN had to twist and reinterpret their own definitions of refugees so much to make these individuals qualify as refugees, that they had to create a separate agency to address palestinian "refugees" than the one that addresses and serves all other refugees in the world. No other group in the world is permitted to use the definition of "refugee" that has been created for the palestinians.

They are using force to occupy land that's not theres. THAT'S LITERALLY COLONIZATION. I'm not using a different definition for Israel. I've been talking about Israel in the same way I have been talking about America when you brought that up.

That's hardly what they did though, if they left for their safety. Whether that "made it easier for an attack" as you claim, that's really neither here nor there frankly.
So you're actually claiming Palestinians are a privileged group on the world stage? Because I'd have to beg to differ with that idea.

[Rehansu Tir]

I haven't insulted you, and there's no reason to insult me. Neither is it an "idiotic statement."
Why would you trust a government that doesn't stop its people from taking your land and bulldozing your houses? If you're coming into negotiations with you already losing lands and already having the lower hand, than how is there to be negotiations? A good place for Israel to show that they are actually dedicated to a two-state solution and negotiations would be removing their ILLEGAL settlements, stopping their citizens from those actions, and STOP BUILDING NEW ONES.

I didn't insult you, I insulted the statement you made which was idiotic.

As to your question, how does the losing side of a war ever negotiate a peace treaty? They always do it from a position of disadvantage because they lost.

Israel should not preemptively remove the settlements because the settlements are the only thing that is forcing the palestinians to the peace table in the first place. The removal of settlements is something that needs to be determined by the negotiations, just as the final borders and other terms of the peace are to be. The only show of good faith that either side need show is a ceasefire. However, the palestinians regularly violate ceasefire agreements.

Tell me this: If israel did remove the settlements, what would be left to negotiate? The terms under which the palestinians would stop attacking israel and israeli civilians?

[Rehansu Tir]

Why do palestinian apologists keep bringing up the nakba like it happened yesterday? and why do you ignore the fact that the palestinians/arabs are responsible for the nakba happening in the first place?

Nakba? What's that?

Nice try at a false equivalence by the way.

You're right. half the world's jewish population died in the holocaust, while the palestinians all survived the nakba, so it's hardly the same thing at all.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

I don't give a shit if they were as you claim "dancing during 9/11" they have a right to express opinions in such a way.

What evidence is that? By continuing building new illegal settlements? Killing a Palestinian child every three days? Bulldozing homes? Seizing and arresting mass amounts of Palestinians? Denying Palestinians rights within Israel?

Nope, I'm not, sorry. That's not "the only explanation." I have nothing against Jews, I have everything against the state of Israel and it's awful actions against Palestinians and its flagrant abuse of international law.
So you're not for a two-state solution, like I have routinely said that I am? You're for a one-majority apartheid state?

So you dont care that they were gloating for alqaida? Good than so did Israelis had a right to express their opinion in Palestine.

Arabs in Israel have more rights than in Saudi Arabia and you are just poisoned by neo-nazi propagnda. But unfortunately for you the golden ages of Auschwitz are gone forever.

Of course, they can dance all they want. What, do you also want Israel to stop Palestinian people from dancing?
I hate Saudi Arabia too, so nice try. Wow, you're disgusting if you're going to use Nazism as a point in your argument to shut me up. Sweetie, I despise nazis and neo-nazism. I find Auschwitz deplorable and awful.

[Alyakia]

I haven't insulted you, and there's no reason to insult me. Neither is it an "idiotic statement."
Why would you trust a government that doesn't stop its people from taking your land and bulldozing your houses? If you're coming into negotiations with you already losing lands and already having the lower hand, than how is there to be negotiations? A good place for Israel to show that they are actually dedicated to a two-state solution and negotiations would be removing their ILLEGAL settlements, stopping their citizens from those actions, and STOP BUILDING NEW ONES.

I didn't insult you, I insulted the statement you made which was idiotic.

As to your question, how does the losing side of a war ever negotiate a peace treaty? They always do it from a position of disadvantage because they lost.

Israel should not preemptively remove the settlements because the settlements are the only thing that is forcing the palestinians to the peace table in the first place. The removal of settlements is something that needs to be determined by the negotiations, just as the final borders and other terms of the peace are to be. The only show of good faith that either side need show is a ceasefire. However, the palestinians regularly violate ceasefire agreements.

Tell me this: If israel did remove the settlements, what would be left to negotiate? The terms under which the palestinians would stop attacking israel and israeli civilians?

i really need to check at this point you know the difference between the west bank and gaza the the administrations thereof

[Evraim]

Israel has just arrested 6 Jewish extremists in connection with the murder of the Palestinian boy.

Good.

Old story that was discredited shortly after it was published. The women were at a women's health clinic and voluntarily received depoprovara shots, which is a short-term birth control that doesn't have to be taken daily, unlike the pill. No one was forced and no one was sterilized. What a joke.

Any evidence of what you say? Because all I can find is articles saying that it happened and was done without genuine consent.
Here's haaretz saying Israel admitted to the sterilization:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... m-1.496519

Birth control is not equivalent to sterilization. Your source says the women were given long-lasting birth control shots. From the articles, I've read all parties consented, though there may have been problems with communication and cultural differences, namely linguistic and cultural barriers prevented women from understanding what the exact effects of the drugs would be. The drug in question has an effective duration of three months. That is far from sterilization, which generally entails permanent infertility.

[Rehansu Tir]

You're for a one-majority apartheid state?

I suggest you read this article before you start with the apartheid bullshit.

For Israel's Arabs It Is Not Apartheid by Khaled Abu Toameh

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1102/ ... -apartheid

[Estrain (Ancient)]

I haven't insulted you, and there's no reason to insult me. Neither is it an "idiotic statement."
Why would you trust a government that doesn't stop its people from taking your land and bulldozing your houses? If you're coming into negotiations with you already losing lands and already having the lower hand, than how is there to be negotiations? A good place for Israel to show that they are actually dedicated to a two-state solution and negotiations would be removing their ILLEGAL settlements, stopping their citizens from those actions, and STOP BUILDING NEW ONES.

I didn't insult you, I insulted the statement you made which was idiotic.

As to your question, how does the losing side of a war ever negotiate a peace treaty? They always do it from a position of disadvantage because they lost.

Israel should not preemptively remove the settlements because the settlements are the only thing that is forcing the palestinians to the peace table in the first place. The removal of settlements is something that needs to be determined by the negotiations, just as the final borders and other terms of the peace are to be. The only show of good faith that either side need show is a ceasefire. However, the palestinians regularly violate ceasefire agreements.

Tell me this: If israel did remove the settlements, what would be left to negotiate? The terms under which the palestinians would stop attacking israel and israeli civilians?

Sure, that could be one way to start the negotiations. But we should definitely allow the Israeli people to illegally seize land and destroy homes so they can build illegal settlements (settlements even the US GOVERNMENT has called illegal) so that we can have this peace process. That makes no sense. Israel shouldn't be allowed to seize land and destroy homes for any reason. Those settlements are illegal, regardless of a peace process.

[United Marxist Nations]

Israel has just arrested 6 Jewish extremists in connection with the murder of the Palestinian boy.

Good.

However, I'm sure they haven't arrested anyone for the beating of his (the murdered Palestinian boy) American cousin by Israeli police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhFa_kgB1cc

[Estrain (Ancient)]

You're for a one-majority apartheid state?

I suggest you read this article before you start with the apartheid bullshit.

For Israel's Arabs It Is Not Apartheid by Khaled Abu Toameh

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1102/ ... -apartheid

I'll trust this person's opinion about what constitutes Apartheid over anyone else:
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ans-344874

[Scholmeria]

quote="Estrain";p="20817927"]Of course, they can dance all they want. What, do you also want Israel to stop Palestinian people from dancing?
I hate Saudi Arabia too, so nice try. Wow, you're disgusting if you're going to use Nazism as a point in your argument to shut me up. Sweetie, I despise nazis and neo-nazism. I find Auschwitz deplorable and awful.[/quote]
In that case the Pales will never be the friends on the West as they are having sympathies for bin Laden.

Your anti-semitic hate speechs against Israel shows about your subconscious mind. You would probably be a good Capo in Auschwitz.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

In that case the Pales will never be the friends on the West as they are having sympathies for bin Laden.

Your anti-semitic hate speechs against Israel shows about your subconscious mind. You would probably be a good Capo in Auschwitz.

I'm not talking to you because you're disgusting and can't have an actual conversation.

[Gauthier]

I suggest you read this article before you start with the apartheid bullshit.

For Israel's Arabs It Is Not Apartheid by Khaled Abu Toameh

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1102/ ... -apartheid

I'll trust this person's opinion about what constitutes Apartheid over anyone else:
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ans-344874

Remember when Israel apologists were bitching about Jimmy Carter calling it an apartheid state? Yeah, I'd like to see what kind of excuse they'll come up with to dismiss Tutu, a man who arguably knows about apartheid first hand.