Israel / Gaza / Hamas Mega-Thread

[Rehansu Tir]

This is the issue with this:
Someone says CHILDREN are dying at the hands of Israel, and you don't express any sadness. Any sympathy. You ignore it. You move on. You tell them, hey accept the ~generous~ terms they've been offered.
Because WE as a colonizing force in YOUR land can tell YOU where YOU get to live because WE'VE decided that WE can. And then, you have to prove yourself to us, the murderers of your children and fathers and friends, so that WE can give you basic rights and basic sovereignty.
You don't see anything wrong with that, at all, do you?

There is nothing that I or you can do about palestinians who have died, whether they have died at the hands of israelis, or other palestinians and arabs. Similarly, there is nothing that I or you can do about the israelis who have died under similar circumstances. But we can do something to prevent further deaths. We all know that the surest way to end unnecessary death is israel, the WB and gaza is through a peace settlement.

Now, the israelis and the palestinians have been in a constant state of war for more then 60 years, interrupted only by short cease-fires, that seem to never last more than a few days. In that war, the palestinians have been supported by their arab neighbours, who have committed their money, resources and armies to the cause of destroying israel. Regardless of which side inthe war you support, the fact of the matter is that the israelis have effectively won the war. some states, like egypt and jordan have admitted that fact, while other like syria, iraq, iran, lebanon and the palestinians themselves refuse to accept it.

What does one do when they've won the war but the other side insists on continuing the fight, even though they have no chance of winning?

Israel has tried to negotiate peace with the palestinians, offering them peace and their own state many time, including 3 times in the past 15 years. One two of those occasions the offer included virtually all of the territory of the WB and gaza, and east jerusalem as the palestinian capital - everything the palestinians say they want - yet every time they have walked away from the negotiations without even making a counter offer. In fact when abbas walked away from the negotiations with olmert, olmert and the israelis at first didn't even realize that the negotiations were over, because abbas left under the auspices of going to consult with his cabinet and advisors. he just never bothered to come back.

Now, as to your claim of colonialism, here are the facts. 80% of israeli jews were born and raised in israel, having never known another home. Less than 30% of palestinians have ever even been to the WB or gaza (let alone israel), and that number falls to less than 25% when you include palestinian "refugees" living in western europe, canada and the US, who somehow still claim to be refugees even as they enjoy citizenship, etc in those countries.

But that begs the question (and I do hope you will answer it this time): how long does a population have to live somewhere before they can be considered native to the land? And how long can a population not live somewhere before they can no longer claim the land of their ancestors? Keep in mind that there are native american populations in the US that were forcibly removed from their land by the US military at the same time that jews from around the world were moving to the british palestinian mandate seeking safety and security and a homeland of their own - if the israelis are illegitimate landlords and the palestinians the legitimate landlords, does this mean that those native americans should also be allowed to reclaim the land that was taken from their grandparents by white european americans? If so, much of the mid-west, the dakotas west to idaho and south to oklahoma and new mexico, need to be cleared of the illegal white european american settlers and returned to the native americans who were forced from the land and forced onto reservations.

I would also remind you that the palestinians, like all arabs living outside the arabian peninsula, are themselves colonizers. arabs are not native to the lavant any more than they are to mesopotamia and north africa. Yet their violent and bloody colonization of those lands, which involved the genocide and total subjugation of native populations, is ignored as if it never even happened.

[Rehansu Tir]

Basically, the untermenschen should be thankful they're allowed by their Israeli ubermenschen to continue breathing.

just as the jews expelled from arab countries, including the WB, gaza and east jerusalem post 1948 should be fortunate that most of them were allowed to leave with the clothes on their back and seeing only a handful of their relatives murdered in pogroms by their arab/persian neighbours and the local and national authorities.

Like these jews native to east jerusalem who were cleansed from their homes in east jerusalem by the jordanian army when it annexed the WB, as shown in Life Magazine pictures from the time:

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.ca/2011/06 ... -army.html

they're lucky they were allowed to leave, when the arabs would have been justified in killing them all, right?

[Alyakia]

This is the issue with this:
Someone says CHILDREN are dying at the hands of Israel, and you don't express any sadness. Any sympathy. You ignore it. You move on. You tell them, hey accept the ~generous~ terms they've been offered.
Because WE as a colonizing force in YOUR land can tell YOU where YOU get to live because WE'VE decided that WE can. And then, you have to prove yourself to us, the murderers of your children and fathers and friends, so that WE can give you basic rights and basic sovereignty.
You don't see anything wrong with that, at all, do you?

There is nothing that I or you can do about palestinians who have died, whether they have died at the hands of israelis, or other palestinians and arabs. Similarly, there is nothing that I or you can do about the israelis who have died under similar circumstances. But we can do something to prevent further deaths. We all know that the surest way to end unnecessary death is israel, the WB and gaza is through a peace settlement.

Now, the israelis and the palestinians have been in a constant state of war for more then 60 years, interrupted only by short cease-fires, that seem to never last more than a few days. In that war, the palestinians have been supported by their arab neighbours, who have committed their money, resources and armies to the cause of destroying israel. Regardless of which side inthe war you support, the fact of the matter is that the israelis have effectively won the war. some states, like egypt and jordan have admitted that fact, while other like syria, iraq, iran, lebanon and the palestinians themselves refuse to accept it.

What does one do when they've won the war but the other side insists on continuing the fight, even though they have no chance of winning?

Israel has tried to negotiate peace with the palestinians, offering them peace and their own state many time, including 3 times in the past 15 years. One two of those occasions the offer included virtually all of the territory of the WB and gaza, and east jerusalem as the palestinian capital - everything the palestinians say they want - yet every time they have walked away from the negotiations without even making a counter offer. In fact when abbas walked away from the negotiations with olmert, olmert and the israelis at first didn't even realize that the negotiations were over, because abbas left under the auspices of going to consult with his cabinet and advisors. he just never bothered to come back.

Now, as to your claim of colonialism, here are the facts. 80% of israeli jews were born and raised in israel, having never known another home. Less than 30% of palestinians have ever even been to the WB or gaza (let alone israel), and that number falls to less than 25% when you include palestinian "refugees" living in western europe, canada and the US, who somehow still claim to be refugees even as they enjoy citizenship, etc in those countries.

But that begs the question (and I do hope you will answer it this time): how long does a population have to live somewhere before they can be considered native to the land? And how long can a population not live somewhere before they can no longer claim the land of their ancestors? Keep in mind that there are native american populations in the US that were forcibly removed from their land by the US military at the same time that jews from around the world were moving to the british palestinian mandate seeking safety and security and a homeland of their own - if the israelis are illegitimate landlords and the palestinians the legitimate landlords, does this mean that those native americans should also be allowed to reclaim the land that was taken from their grandparents by white european americans? If so, much of the mid-west, the dakotas west to idaho and south to oklahoma and new mexico, need to be cleared of the illegal white european american settlers and returned to the native americans who were forced from the land and forced onto reservations.

I would also remind you that the palestinians, like all arabs living outside the arabian peninsula, are themselves colonizers. arabs are not native to the lavant any more than they are to mesopotamia and north africa. Yet their violent and bloody colonization of those lands, which involved the genocide and total subjugation of native populations, is ignored as if it never even happened.

dear palestine

please

let us annex this territory
take all of jerusalem
control your airspace and station troops in your land at our convenience
take the water in your land
quash the palestinian right of return
have no military and do not make any alliances without our approval
annex these settlements (67? no!!!)
take 9% of your land in exchange for 1% of ours
make no further demands or negotiations after this
be our bitch

in return we will

uninvade you. sort of. we'll still basically be in control though.

thanks

signed, israel, peacefully pursuing peace

*builds settlement*

yeah, what an amazing fucking deal huh?

[Estrain (Ancient)]

There is nothing that I or you can do about palestinians who have died, whether they have died at the hands of israelis, or other palestinians and arabs. Similarly, there is nothing that I or you can do about the israelis who have died under similar circumstances. But we can do something to prevent further deaths. We all know that the surest way to end unnecessary death is israel, the WB and gaza is through a peace settlement.

Now, the israelis and the palestinians have been in a constant state of war for more then 60 years, interrupted only by short cease-fires, that seem to never last more than a few days. In that war, the palestinians have been supported by their arab neighbours, who have committed their money, resources and armies to the cause of destroying israel. Regardless of which side inthe war you support, the fact of the matter is that the israelis have effectively won the war. some states, like egypt and jordan have admitted that fact, while other like syria, iraq, iran, lebanon and the palestinians themselves refuse to accept it.

What does one do when they've won the war but the other side insists on continuing the fight, even though they have no chance of winning?

Israel has tried to negotiate peace with the palestinians, offering them peace and their own state many time, including 3 times in the past 15 years. One two of those occasions the offer included virtually all of the territory of the WB and gaza, and east jerusalem as the palestinian capital - everything the palestinians say they want - yet every time they have walked away from the negotiations without even making a counter offer. In fact when abbas walked away from the negotiations with olmert, olmert and the israelis at first didn't even realize that the negotiations were over, because abbas left under the auspices of going to consult with his cabinet and advisors. he just never bothered to come back.

Now, as to your claim of colonialism, here are the facts. 80% of israeli jews were born and raised in israel, having never known another home. Less than 30% of palestinians have ever even been to the WB or gaza (let alone israel), and that number falls to less than 25% when you include palestinian "refugees" living in western europe, canada and the US, who somehow still claim to be refugees even as they enjoy citizenship, etc in those countries.

But that begs the question (and I do hope you will answer it this time): how long does a population have to live somewhere before they can be considered native to the land? And how long can a population not live somewhere before they can no longer claim the land of their ancestors? Keep in mind that there are native american populations in the US that were forcibly removed from their land by the US military at the same time that jews from around the world were moving to the british palestinian mandate seeking safety and security and a homeland of their own - if the israelis are illegitimate landlords and the palestinians the legitimate landlords, does this mean that those native americans should also be allowed to reclaim the land that was taken from their grandparents by white european americans? If so, much of the mid-west, the dakotas west to idaho and south to oklahoma and new mexico, need to be cleared of the illegal white european american settlers and returned to the native americans who were forced from the land and forced onto reservations.

I would also remind you that the palestinians, like all arabs living outside the arabian peninsula, are themselves colonizers. arabs are not native to the lavant any more than they are to mesopotamia and north africa. Yet their violent and bloody colonization of those lands, which involved the genocide and total subjugation of native populations, is ignored as if it never even happened.

dear palestine

please

let us annex this territory
take all of jerusalem
control your airspace and station troops in your land at our convenience
take the water in your land
quash the palestinian right of return
have no military and do not make any alliances without our approval
annex these settlements (67? no!!!)
take 9% of your land in exchange for 1% of ours
make no further demands or negotiations after this
be our bitch

in return we will

uninvade you. sort of. we'll still basically be in control though.

thanks

signed, israel, peacefully pursuing peace

*builds settlement*

yeah, what an amazing fucking deal huh?

[Rehansu Tir]

dear palestine

please

let us annex this territory
take all of jerusalem
control your airspace and station troops in your land at our convenience
take the water in your land
quash the palestinian right of return
have no military and do not make any alliances without our approval
annex these settlements (67? no!!!)
take 9% of your land in exchange for 1% of ours
make no further demands or negotiations after this
be our bitch

in return we will

uninvade you. sort of. we'll still basically be in control though.

thanks

signed, israel, peacefully pursuing peace

*builds settlement*

yeah, what an amazing fucking deal huh?

And this sort of glib response, which is the equivalent of the palestinian response at peace negotiations, is why the fighting will continue and why palestinians and israelis will continue to die.

Congratulations, you've won the right to continue the war. Good luck with that.

[Alyakia]

dear palestine

please

let us annex this territory
take all of jerusalem
control your airspace and station troops in your land at our convenience
take the water in your land
quash the palestinian right of return
have no military and do not make any alliances without our approval
annex these settlements (67? no!!!)
take 9% of your land in exchange for 1% of ours
make no further demands or negotiations after this
be our bitch

in return we will

uninvade you. sort of. we'll still basically be in control though.

thanks

signed, israel, peacefully pursuing peace

*builds settlement*

yeah, what an amazing fucking deal huh?

And this sort of glib response, which is the equivalent of the palestinian response at peace negotiations, is why the fighting will continue and why palestinians and israelis will continue to die.

Congratulations, you've won the right to continue the war. Good luck with that.

have you considered that maybe, just maybe, israel isn't 100% innocent here?

[Rehansu Tir]

And this sort of glib response, which is the equivalent of the palestinian response at peace negotiations, is why the fighting will continue and why palestinians and israelis will continue to die.

Congratulations, you've won the right to continue the war. Good luck with that.

yeah, the palestinians are 100% to blame. you got it.

I'm sorry, but the settlements aren't the issue. Contrary to some people's thinking, the settlements aren't a zero sum gain situation. Land isn't like a pie. If you eat a piece of pie, it's gone forever. but the land with the settlements built on it is still there, and potentiall (with a peace agreement) still available to the palestinians. the pros of the settlements for the palestinians is that they will get the homes and other building that exist in those settlements that are turned over to the palestinians as part of a peace agreement, something the palestinians will desperately need when they get their state and have to absorb all those refugees currently located in other arab states.

But there's also a risk. The longer the war goes on, the more settlements will be built. Right now, the settlement population represents less than 4% of the israeli population. This means that they are still not so politically powerful as to dissuade an israeli government from removing most or all of them if it's so agreed in a peace agreement with the palestinians. But the more settlements are built and the larger the settler population becomes, the more political power and influence that group will acquire and the more difficult it will be for any government to remove the settlements and survive as a government, meaning that they'll be less and less likely to agree to such a move.

The reality is that barak, sharon, olmert and even netanyahu (who I don't like or support, by the way) have all offered to remove most of the settlements and offered to negotiate land and even population swaps for the largest settlements with are near the border.

[Gauthier]

Basically, the untermenschen should be thankful they're allowed by their Israeli ubermenschen to continue breathing.

just as the jews expelled from arab countries, including the WB, gaza and east jerusalem post 1948 should be fortunate that most of them were allowed to leave with the clothes on their back and seeing only a handful of their relatives murdered in pogroms by their arab/persian neighbours and the local and national authorities.

Like these jews native to east jerusalem who were cleansed from their homes in east jerusalem by the jordanian army when it annexed the WB, as shown in Life Magazine pictures from the time:

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.ca/2011/06 ... -army.html

they're lucky they were allowed to leave, when the arabs would have been justified in killing them all, right?

"It was being done to them, so it's perfectly fine if they do it to others."

Compelling moral argument.

[Caraani]

Before any zionist talks crap about the suffering Palestinians people that fight with stones against israeli tanks and guns to defend their rightful lands and their own houses, read this.
https://www.facebook.com/freepalestine. ... =1&theater
and then talk.
On and btw, this also happens: https://www.facebook.com/freepalestine. ... =1&theater

[The Principate]

the hashtag #BringBackOurBoys has become popular among Jews around the world. We hoped our boys, 3 teenagers, one of them was an american citizen, will come back to their families. Unfortunately, 3 dead bodies were found...
The bodies are the 3 boys that we hoped to see alive again. Those Hamas dogs inhumane bastards planned to kidnap them and ask for a ransom. Appearently, the boys managed to call the police, but the dogs shot them to death when it happened. For 2 and a half weeks we searched for them, while we didn't realize we were looking for their bodies. May all of them rest in peace, and G-d avenge their death. 3
People thA were never mature enough to start living their own life, or explore the world.
You dont need to like the Jews or Israel to condemn an innocent killing for no reason of 3 teenagers that could have been me, or WILL be me tomorrow, or anyone else. some of you will say Israel 'does worse things...', some of you will even praise it, but this is a national tragedy. Yes, maybe some Arabs and Muslims dont see it as a tragedy because for them maybe, slaughtering 100 children a day is not tragic, but just 3 teenagres for us, IS A NATIONAL TRAGRDY!
Obama instead of condeming this thing, or at least condemn the fact one of them was american, says we should move forward and work for peace. does it seem to you that for now any Israeli (Rightist or Leftist, but Leftist for temporary period), will even think about how Palestine should be created since their people just did, that?
What do you say about it?

I say that the acts of a small group of people do not justify a war that could end hundreds of innocent lives. It is very sad that those three boys died, but I do not see how more death will solve anything. Moving forward and working for peace should be everyone's top priority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

[Rehansu Tir]

"It was being done to them, so it's perfectly fine if they do it to others."

Compelling moral argument.

That's not my argument, it's yours. you also make the argument that we have to accept and tolerate when palestinians and arabs behave in a way that violates international and human rights laws, because they don't have the ability to make moral determinations of right and wrong like you do and like the israelis do, which is why israel has to meet the stardards of these laws, even when the arabs and palestinians don't. It's literally the argument that arabs and palestinians are less capable than western societies and populations.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

This is the issue with this:
Someone says CHILDREN are dying at the hands of Israel, and you don't express any sadness. Any sympathy. You ignore it. You move on. You tell them, hey accept the ~generous~ terms they've been offered.
Because WE as a colonizing force in YOUR land can tell YOU where YOU get to live because WE'VE decided that WE can. And then, you have to prove yourself to us, the murderers of your children and fathers and friends, so that WE can give you basic rights and basic sovereignty.
You don't see anything wrong with that, at all, do you?

There is nothing that I or you can do about palestinians who have died, whether they have died at the hands of israelis, or other palestinians and arabs. Similarly, there is nothing that I or you can do about the israelis who have died under similar circumstances. But we can do something to prevent further deaths. We all know that the surest way to end unnecessary death is israel, the WB and gaza is through a peace settlement.

Now, the israelis and the palestinians have been in a constant state of war for more then 60 years, interrupted only by short cease-fires, that seem to never last more than a few days. In that war, the palestinians have been supported by their arab neighbours, who have committed their money, resources and armies to the cause of destroying israel. Regardless of which side inthe war you support, the fact of the matter is that the israelis have effectively won the war. some states, like egypt and jordan have admitted that fact, while other like syria, iraq, iran, lebanon and the palestinians themselves refuse to accept it.

What does one do when they've won the war but the other side insists on continuing the fight, even though they have no chance of winning?

Israel has tried to negotiate peace with the palestinians, offering them peace and their own state many time, including 3 times in the past 15 years. One two of those occasions the offer included virtually all of the territory of the WB and gaza, and east jerusalem as the palestinian capital - everything the palestinians say they want - yet every time they have walked away from the negotiations without even making a counter offer. In fact when abbas walked away from the negotiations with olmert, olmert and the israelis at first didn't even realize that the negotiations were over, because abbas left under the auspices of going to consult with his cabinet and advisors. he just never bothered to come back.

Now, as to your claim of colonialism, here are the facts. 80% of israeli jews were born and raised in israel, having never known another home. Less than 30% of palestinians have ever even been to the WB or gaza (let alone israel), and that number falls to less than 25% when you include palestinian "refugees" living in western europe, canada and the US, who somehow still claim to be refugees even as they enjoy citizenship, etc in those countries.

But that begs the question (and I do hope you will answer it this time): how long does a population have to live somewhere before they can be considered native to the land? And how long can a population not live somewhere before they can no longer claim the land of their ancestors? Keep in mind that there are native american populations in the US that were forcibly removed from their land by the US military at the same time that jews from around the world were moving to the british palestinian mandate seeking safety and security and a homeland of their own - if the israelis are illegitimate landlords and the palestinians the legitimate landlords, does this mean that those native americans should also be allowed to reclaim the land that was taken from their grandparents by white european americans? If so, much of the mid-west, the dakotas west to idaho and south to oklahoma and new mexico, need to be cleared of the illegal white european american settlers and returned to the native americans who were forced from the land and forced onto reservations.

I would also remind you that the palestinians, like all arabs living outside the arabian peninsula, are themselves colonizers. arabs are not native to the lavant any more than they are to mesopotamia and north africa. Yet their violent and bloody colonization of those lands, which involved the genocide and total subjugation of native populations, is ignored as if it never even happened.

The land in the United States was brought to us (white Europeans) through genocide and colonization. The United States is a colonozier, an imperialist nation. The Native American population is oppressed in America. And we, the amazing white people (read: colonizers) were like: hey sorry about everything we've done to you, we'll give you these lands that are a fraction of the land that you once occupied. How nice of us to do that. We're gonna now ignore your plight and pat ourselves on the back because we were nice enough to give you those nice reservations. Until such time that those reservations become inconvenient to our goals of government or business, then we'll take the land away from you because so that we can build pipelines through your sacred ground because it's for the ~economic benefit~ to all of us. Don't use the United States as an argument here, because Israel and the United States are both imperialist, colonizing states. White people in America will never "native" because one, they aren't classified as such according to the government or according to their race. Two, because they are not native to this land. Native Americans are.
And I also don't appreciate you doubting Palestinian refugee rights. Are they not fleeing a land plagued by violence and terrorism? Maybe their house was destroyed to make room for a Israeli house. Maybe they couldn't handle Palestinians fighting for their rights from the Israeli government. Maybe their kid was murdered by the Israeli government. Regardless, Palestinians deserve to be able to claim refugee status if they so desire it.
That "colonization" was in the BC era. That's way to far for it to even be considered a viable argument here. The colonization of Palestinian land is happening RIGHT NOW. Similarly, the colonization of America is still ongoing, and it wasn't started that long ago.
Beyond that, I've already expressed that a two-state solution is the only viable solution at this time. While I do not believe that Zionism has a place in Palestine or in the world as an ideology, and that Israel doesn't have a "right" to exist, I acknowledge that there needs to be both an Israeli and Palestinian state.
Why do they insist on continuing the fight? Idk, how would you feel if where you live is suddenly being invaded by a distinct group that were not there in the first place. I wouldn't like it, and I highly doubt you would. While my knowledge about the history of the peace process is limited, I'm not willing to believe your version that solely blames the Palestinian people. While I believe that for the sake of both Israelis and Palestinian people and their lives, a peace process must be gained. That peace process must be fair, which I cannot blame the Palestinian people not thinking it is. This is a human issue, and the Palestinian people have been through so much.

[Wind in the Willows]

Have they actually found any evidence that proves Hamas was behind the kidnappings? Or is this just another excuse the Israelis are making up to launch missiles at Palestinians again?

[Mousebumples]

Before any zionist talks crap about the suffering Palestinians people that fight with stones against israeli tanks and guns to defend their rightful lands and their own houses, read this.
https://www.facebook.com/freepalestine. ... =1&theater
and then talk.
On and btw, this also happens: https://www.facebook.com/freepalestine. ... =1&theater

You really should get your numbers from official sources, like the UN. According to the UN:

Casualties Since 2000:

Palestinians: 7978 - 1620 of those under 18

Israelis: 1503 - 142 of those under 18

The Un also found that palestinians disproportionately target israeli civilians. They found that 59% of palestinians killed by israelis were non-combatants (civilians) and the 69% of israelis killed by palestinians were non-combatants (civilians). They further stipulated that the percentage of palestinian civilians killed was very likely inaccurately high, as palestinian combatants tend not to wear uniforms, making it difficult to comfirm that a palestinian casualty was actually a non-combatant (civilian).

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/CAS_Aug07.pdf

As to your second link, people on both sides are killed by murders on the other side. This also happens:

*graphic image links removed*

[Gauthier]

"It was being done to them, so it's perfectly fine if they do it to others."

Compelling moral argument.

That's not my argument, it's yours. you also make the argument that we have to accept and tolerate when palestinians and arabs behave in a way that violates international and human rights laws, because they don't have the ability to make moral determinations of right and wrong like you do and like the israelis do, which is why israel has to meet the stardards of these laws, even when the arabs and palestinians don't. It's literally the argument that arabs and palestinians are less capable than western societies and populations.

Uh, no. Israel's apologists keep touting how it's The Only Democracy in the Middle East and how it's the sole bastion of human rights. Yeah, great way to show that by acting just like the other countries in the Middle East.

[Rehansu Tir]

And I also don't appreciate you doubting Palestinian refugee rights. Are they not fleeing a land plagued by violence and terrorism?

You mean syria? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/1 ... 27428.html Yeah, lots of palestinians are fleeing violence in syria. Most of the palestinian refugees from what is now israel fled, not the israelis, but to clear the way for the arab armies that were going to cleanse the land of the jewish filth... except it didn't work out that way and they ended up being screwed over by their arab brothers and sisters.

That "colonization" was in the BC era.

No, again you have no idea of history. Arab colonization of the lavant, mesopotamia and north africa (and continued occupation into central africa: see darfur and south sudan) started in the 7th century AD and continues to this day. Arab colonization was also seen in israel as recently as the 1920s, when an influx of arabs migrated to the lavant to take advantage of new economic opportunities that had been created by the jewish migrants who came there and started businesses and prosperous communities.

http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking- ... -palestine

I'm not willing to believe your version that solely blames the Palestinian people.

You don't have to believe me. Believe Bill Clinton: "Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace.""

"Clinton wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one.""

[Rehansu Tir]

Uh, no. Israel's apologists keep touting how it's The Only Democracy in the Middle East and how it's the sole bastion of human rights. Yeah, great way to show that by acting just like the other countries in the Middle East.

Israel does what it has to do to protect its citizens from foreign aggressors, just like every other country in the world does. The israeli government is responsible to israeli citizens, jewish, arab and druze alike; it is not responsible to or for the safety of palestinians - that is what the palestinian government is for.

[Gauthier]

Israel does what it has to do to protect its citizens from foreign aggressors, just like every other country in the world does. The israeli government is responsible to israeli citizens, jewish, arab and druze alike; it is not responsible to or for the safety of palestinians - that is what the palestinian government is for.

Especially when protecting its citizens from "foreign" aggressors in illegal settlements out in the West Bank. Great job, guys.

[Rehansu Tir]

Israel does what it has to do to protect its citizens from foreign aggressors, just like every other country in the world does. The israeli government is responsible to israeli citizens, jewish, arab and druze alike; it is not responsible to or for the safety of palestinians - that is what the palestinian government is for.

Especially when protecting its citizens from "foreign" aggressors in illegal settlements out in the West Bank. Great job, guys.

I don't defend the settlements, I think they should be removed, but I also don't defend palestinian violence against settlers or against civilians inside israel. Especially knowing that the settlement/settler issue would be resolved through a peace agreement. As I stated in an earlier post: the settlements are not a real obstacle to peace.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

And I also don't appreciate you doubting Palestinian refugee rights. Are they not fleeing a land plagued by violence and terrorism?

You mean syria? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/1 ... 27428.html Yeah, lots of palestinians are fleeing violence in syria. Most of the palestinian refugees from what is now israel fled, not the israelis, but to clear the way for the arab armies that were going to cleanse the land of the jewish filth... except it didn't work out that way and they ended up being screwed over by their arab brothers and sisters.

That "colonization" was in the BC era.

No, again you have no idea of history. Arab colonization of the lavant, mesopotamia and north africa (and continued occupation into central africa: see darfur and south sudan) started in the 7th century AD and continues to this day. Arab colonization was also seen in israel as recently as the 1920s, when an influx of arabs migrated to the lavant to take advantage of new economic opportunities that had been created by the jewish migrants who came there and started businesses and prosperous communities.

http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoking- ... -palestine

I'm not willing to believe your version that solely blames the Palestinian people.

You don't have to believe me. Believe Bill Clinton: "Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace.""

"Clinton wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one.""

Again, seventh century AD was a long time ago. I don't think your idea of colonization is correct. Immigration is not colonization. You need power, you need force to colonize. According to your definition of colonization both the Jews and Arabs you mentioned we're both colonizers. Also, I highly doubt the Palestinian people left their homes and their homeland to "make room" for fighters.
Also, why would I care what Bill Clinton has to say about the Palestinian people. Also, you blamed the Palestinian people for every failure, but only provided something for one. And that something was a quote from President Clinton, who is president of the United States that has always been staunchly pro-Israel and pro-imperialism. So it proves really nothing at all.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Especially when protecting its citizens from "foreign" aggressors in illegal settlements out in the West Bank. Great job, guys.

I don't defend the settlements, I think they should be removed, but I also don't defend palestinian violence against settlers or against civilians inside israel. Especially knowing that the settlement/settler issue would be resolved through a peace agreement. As I stated in an earlier post: the settlements are not a real obstacle to peace.

"Hey, sorry we are bulldozing your homes and taking your land and refuse to leave. Let's negotiate on those terms!"

[Scholmeria]

There is nothing that I or you can do about palestinians who have died, whether they have died at the hands of israelis, or other palestinians and arabs. Similarly, there is nothing that I or you can do about the israelis who have died under similar circumstances. But we can do something to prevent further deaths. We all know that the surest way to end unnecessary death is israel, the WB and gaza is through a peace settlement.

Now, the israelis and the palestinians have been in a constant state of war for more then 60 years, interrupted only by short cease-fires, that seem to never last more than a few days. In that war, the palestinians have been supported by their arab neighbours, who have committed their money, resources and armies to the cause of destroying israel. Regardless of which side inthe war you support, the fact of the matter is that the israelis have effectively won the war. some states, like egypt and jordan have admitted that fact, while other like syria, iraq, iran, lebanon and the palestinians themselves refuse to accept it.

What does one do when they've won the war but the other side insists on continuing the fight, even though they have no chance of winning?

Israel has tried to negotiate peace with the palestinians, offering them peace and their own state many time, including 3 times in the past 15 years. One two of those occasions the offer included virtually all of the territory of the WB and gaza, and east jerusalem as the palestinian capital - everything the palestinians say they want - yet every time they have walked away from the negotiations without even making a counter offer. In fact when abbas walked away from the negotiations with olmert, olmert and the israelis at first didn't even realize that the negotiations were over, because abbas left under the auspices of going to consult with his cabinet and advisors. he just never bothered to come back.

Now, as to your claim of colonialism, here are the facts. 80% of israeli jews were born and raised in israel, having never known another home. Less than 30% of palestinians have ever even been to the WB or gaza (let alone israel), and that number falls to less than 25% when you include palestinian "refugees" living in western europe, canada and the US, who somehow still claim to be refugees even as they enjoy citizenship, etc in those countries.

But that begs the question (and I do hope you will answer it this time): how long does a population have to live somewhere before they can be considered native to the land? And how long can a population not live somewhere before they can no longer claim the land of their ancestors? Keep in mind that there are native american populations in the US that were forcibly removed from their land by the US military at the same time that jews from around the world were moving to the british palestinian mandate seeking safety and security and a homeland of their own - if the israelis are illegitimate landlords and the palestinians the legitimate landlords, does this mean that those native americans should also be allowed to reclaim the land that was taken from their grandparents by white european americans? If so, much of the mid-west, the dakotas west to idaho and south to oklahoma and new mexico, need to be cleared of the illegal white european american settlers and returned to the native americans who were forced from the land and forced onto reservations.

I would also remind you that the palestinians, like all arabs living outside the arabian peninsula, are themselves colonizers. arabs are not native to the lavant any more than they are to mesopotamia and north africa. Yet their violent and bloody colonization of those lands, which involved the genocide and total subjugation of native populations, is ignored as if it never even happened.

dear palestine

please

let us annex this territory
take all of jerusalem
control your airspace and station troops in your land at our convenience
take the water in your land
quash the palestinian right of return
have no military and do not make any alliances without our approval
annex these settlements (67? no!!!)
take 9% of your land in exchange for 1% of ours
make no further demands or negotiations after this
be our bitch

in return we will

uninvade you. sort of. israel, peacefully pursuing peace

*builds settlement*

yeah, what an amazing fucking deal huh?

Why do you hate Israel and the Jewish people?

They have gone through much like the holocault and a little compasion for them wont kill you.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

dear palestine

please

let us annex this territory
take all of jerusalem
control your airspace and station troops in your land at our convenience
take the water in your land
quash the palestinian right of return
have no military and do not make any alliances without our approval
annex these settlements (67? no!!!)
take 9% of your land in exchange for 1% of ours
make no further demands or negotiations after this
be our bitch

in return we will

uninvade you. sort of. israel, peacefully pursuing peace

*builds settlement*

yeah, what an amazing fucking deal huh?

Why do you hate Israel and the Jewish people?

They have gone through much like the holocault and a little compasion for them wont kill you.

Sweetie, being anti-Zionism/pro-Palestinian /=/ hating Jewish people.
Nor does hating Israel /=/ hating Jewish people.
If you can't have a conversation with us without calling us antisemitic then no dialogue can happen.
Also, likewise, a little compassion for the Palestinian people won't kill you.

[Rehansu Tir]

Immigration is not colonization. You need power, you need force to colonize.

By that definition the israelis are not colonizers, but immigrants. They immigrated slowly over 80 years to the palestinian mandate, starting long before the mandate existed, while it was still an Ottoman province that included what is now jordan and parts of sourthern lebanon and southwestern syria. and when they population reach a threshhold, they established their own state, with the support of international bodies and foerign governments in the territory where they represented the majority. They certainly didn't have the force to colonize or even to defend their new state, as they and everyone else, the palestinians included, expected that their state would be defeated in short order.

I highly doubt the Palestinian people left their homes and their homeland to "make room" for fighters.

you can doubt it all you want, but it's been thoroughly research and written about by many scholars from all over the world. The findings have been consistent that a significant number, at least half, of the palestinian "refugees" left at the urging of their leaders and the military to avoid getting caught in the arab attack on israel.

[Gauthier]

dear palestine

please

let us annex this territory
take all of jerusalem
control your airspace and station troops in your land at our convenience
take the water in your land
quash the palestinian right of return
have no military and do not make any alliances without our approval
annex these settlements (67? no!!!)
take 9% of your land in exchange for 1% of ours
make no further demands or negotiations after this
be our bitch

in return we will

uninvade you. sort of. israel, peacefully pursuing peace

*builds settlement*

yeah, what an amazing fucking deal huh?

Why do you hate Israel and the Jewish people?

They have gone through much like the holocault and a little compasion for them wont kill you.

Why do Israel apologists keep bringing up the Holocaust like it just happened yesterday? And by "a little compassion" do you mean "look the other way when they do the exact same shit to the Palestinians"?