Israel / Gaza / Hamas Mega-Thread

[Knask]

I don't give a shit if Israel has "LGBT rights," I don't want my rights to come at the expense of other's.

The question is: do you want someone else's right to come at the expense of yours?

As a gay man, I don't want to see the LGBT community in israel (secular, jewish, christian, arab) suffer for the palestinians, which is what would happen to LGBTs in a palestinian controlled state, as it already does to palestinian gays and lesbians - which is why so many of them risk their lives to sneak into israel.

It almost seems like you're saying that LGBT interests would be best served through a two-state solution...

[Estrain (Ancient)]

I don't give a shit if Israel has "LGBT rights," I don't want my rights to come at the expense of other's.

The question is: do you want someone else's right to come at the expense of yours?

As a gay man, I don't want to see the LGBT community in israel (secular, jewish, christian, arab) suffer for the palestinians, which is what would happen to LGBTs in a palestinian controlled state, as it already does to palestinian gays and lesbians - which is why so many of them risk their lives to sneak into israel.

Palestinian queer people are going to suffer under the Israeli regime regardless, along with all of the other Palestinians in Palestine. So, to answer your question, no. I don't want queer folk to lose rights, or not have rights, but I don't want those rights to come from an illegal occupation, violence perpetrated against Palestinians, eugenics of non-Jews, or the Palestinian people living in fear of the Israeli state.

[Rehansu Tir]

Also, why the Hell shouldn't the Jews be allowed to be an ethnic majority in their own land? Shouldn't France have a French majority, Poland a Polish majority, China a Chinese majority and Israel an Israeli majority?

i don't think the israeli government actually recognizes israeli as a nationality, but i'll need someone else to cover it

Ok, let's clarify for everyone sake.

Jews are an ethnic group.

Judaism is a religion/faith.

Israel is a country/state/nation.

some ethnic jews practice the jewish faith, not all do.

Most people who practice the jewish faith are ethnic jews, but not all (see ethiopian jews and converts to judaism).

Some ethnic jews are israeli citizens, some or citizens of other countries.

Some israelis are ethnic jews, others are ethnic arabs.

Some israelis practice the jewish faith, some the christian, some the islamic, some the druze, some others, and some practice no faith.

Israel is the nation state of ethnic jews.

Israel is not the nation state of the jewish faith/religion.

The proposed palestinian state is the nation state of ethnic arabs who identify as palestinians.

The proposed palestinian state is not the nation state of the islamic, christian, druze or any other state (theoretically, based on the position of fatah - hamas may disagree).

zionism is ethnic jewish nationalism and support for a ethnic jewish state = israel.

if ethnic jewish nationalism and an ethnic jewish state (zionism) is wrong, why is ethnic arab/palestinian nationalism and the desire for an ethnic palestinian state not also wrong?

[Anollasia]

May they RIP.

Also, the OP is pretty biased to an extent.

[Rehansu Tir]

Also, why the Hell shouldn't the Jews be allowed to be an ethnic majority in their own land? Shouldn't France have a French majority, Poland a Polish majority, China a Chinese majority and Israel an Israeli majority?

why shouldn't a white country have a white majority?

Do you know the difference between race and ethnicity?

arabs and jews are members of the same race (caucasian aka white), but they are of two different ethnic groups - ethnic jews and ethnic arabs.

[Rehansu Tir]

Also, why the Hell shouldn't the Jews be allowed to be an ethnic majority in their own land? Shouldn't France have a French majority, Poland a Polish majority, China a Chinese majority and Israel an Israeli majority?

So you have no objection to the First Nations people throwing most of US out of North America?

No, but that ship has sailed. The native americans/first nations no longer have the numbers, let alone the power to remove a foreign population that refuses to leave.

But that begs the question: How long does a group of people have to live somewhere before they are no longer immigrants or foreigners and are instead native to the land?

The reason I ask is that there are places in the continental united states where the native population was pushed off their land and into reservations only at the beginning of the 20th century - a mere 40 years or so before the state of israel was founded and at roughly the same period of time that the much maligned ashkenazi and sephardic jews began to immigrate to what is now israel. There's also the fact that 80% of ethnic israeli jews were born and raised in israel and have never known another home - do they have no right to live there because their parents, grandparents, great grandparents or great great grandparents weren't born there?

[Rehansu Tir]

why shouldn't a white country have a white majority?

The idea that there is one single white ethnicity is ridiculous. White doesn't exist. The idea that a Finn and a Briton are somehow ethically more related than a white and black Briton is laughable.

Ethnicity is a lot more than just race too, ethnicity includes culture and language. For example an ethnicity could encompass several racial groups, who are united under one culture and language, such as the American ethnicity.

American isn't an ethnic group because america isn't a nation state (at this time - in a few centuries it may be). america, like canada and australia and brazil and other modern states (last 500 years) are made up of many ethnic groups, who are citizens of that country and identify as such (ie american), but their ethnic identification is different, it can be english, german, french, irish, scottish, chinese, african, etc.

[Rehansu Tir]

since you probably missed it: why the hell don't they have the right to a nation where they are the majority, exactly? why is ethnicity so special?

they themselves don't appear to have a problem discriminating against other jews. they've figured out the divisions pretty well.

but all citizens of israel cannot be equal. one ethnicity is in charge of all others. what happens when that ethnicity becomes a minority?

You tell us: why should palestinians get their own ethnic palestinian state where they are the majority? Why are they so special?

[Gauthier]

since you probably missed it: why the hell don't they have the right to a nation where they are the majority, exactly? why is ethnicity so special?

they themselves don't appear to have a problem discriminating against other jews. they've figured out the divisions pretty well.

but all citizens of israel cannot be equal. one ethnicity is in charge of all others. what happens when that ethnicity becomes a minority?

You tell us: why should palestinians get their own ethnic palestinian state where they are the majority? Why are they so special?

This straight from someone who'll probably recite some Special People excuse to justify Israel. Hilarious.

[Rehansu Tir]

And that solution, given Israel's track record, will most likely be ethnic cleansing.You can't advocate for a one-majority state, with a intrinsic right to maintain that majority, without acknowledging that that idea will lead to very bad things eventually (which it already is). If you're not for ethnic cleansing, you can't really be for a Jewish State of Israel that has a right to maintain a Jewish majority.

What track record would that be? Is the israeli population 100% jewish? has everyone else been ethnically cleansed?

On the other hand, what happened to the jewish residents of the WB and gaza after the 1948 war, when Egypt and Jordan took over? Oh, that's right, they were ethnically cleansed from the land. But the palestinians would never do that, right?

"“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Jew — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo."
July 30, 2013

[Alyakia]

the existence of any state which states that one race has the right to eternally rule over all other races is unjustifiable.

Oh, for Fs sake. Ethnic jews are caucasian. so are ethnic arabs. They are both members of the same race, it also happens to be the same race that include the iranians, the french, the english, the berbers, the bedouins and many others.

If your going to make claims of bigotry, intolerance, racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism, islamophobia, etc. Use the correct terms or use generic terms that aren't so specific as to make a claim that isn't accurate.

racism in common usage has been extended to include discrimination based on ethnicity as well. since there is as of yet no word for ethnicism, we just use racism. 9 times out of 10 people that come in to nitpick over it are, just, well, pointlessly nitpicking.

why shouldn't a white country have a white majority?

Do you know the difference between race and ethnicity?

arabs and jews are members of the same race (caucasian aka white), but they are of two different ethnic groups - ethnic jews and ethnic arabs.

you're going to be hard pressed to find people that consider arabs white. but hey, while you're bringing it up, what do you think of ~~~*causcasian*~~~ nationalism?

since you probably missed it: why the hell don't they have the right to a nation where they are the majority, exactly? why is ethnicity so special?

they themselves don't appear to have a problem discriminating against other jews. they've figured out the divisions pretty well.

but all citizens of israel cannot be equal. one ethnicity is in charge of all others. what happens when that ethnicity becomes a minority?

You tell us: why should palestinians get their own ethnic palestinian state where they are the majority? Why are they so special?

i don't recall saying anything about them having to be an ethnic majority forever in their state? unless you're going to suggest a non-zionist one-state solution i'm not sure what the point of your post is.

[Alyakia]

"and what if they're (non-jews) just breeding faster than you? you've got all the jews you can from all over the world and made sure only people of the right ethnicity can come, but it's still not enough? what do you do?"

and also, could you answer this question Rehansu Tir? just to get us up to speed on your views.

[Rehansu Tir]

Jewgenics. *nod nod*

Ok, that's insulting. And I'm not even jewish, but as a thinking reasoning person, I find that insulting.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Jewgenics. *nod nod*

Ok, that's insulting. And I'm not even jewish, but as a thinking reasoning person, I find that insulting.

What's more insulting is this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutse ... h-control/
So that's how the Jewish majority will be maintained. Forced eugenics! Yay Israel!

[Natoneya]

[*]

so sad

The question is: do you want someone else's right to come at the expense of yours?

As a gay man, I don't want to see the LGBT community in israel (secular, jewish, christian, arab) suffer for the palestinians, which is what would happen to LGBTs in a palestinian controlled state, as it already does to palestinian gays and lesbians - which is why so many of them risk their lives to sneak into israel.

It almost seems like you're saying that LGBT interests would be best served through a two-state solution...

[Rehansu Tir]

Just give it a Hebrew name for the same thing. Problem solved.

Wow. Just keep it up. you're really making a strong argument now.

[Rehansu Tir]

It would be a hilarious irony. Israel practicing eugenics. Breeding a new generation of Jewbermensch.

You really need to stop now.

[Gauthier]

Ok, that's insulting. And I'm not even jewish, but as a thinking reasoning person, I find that insulting.

What's more insulting is this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutse ... h-control/
So that's how the Jewish majority will be maintained. Forced eugenics! Yay Israel!

That Israel should allegedly engage in this activity is particularly shocking, considering the practice was widely used by the Germans throughout the Shoah. While the scale and effects of these operations cannot be compared, Israel’s implicit intent to limit ‘burdensome’ (read: undesirable) portions of the population recalls the dark eugenics experiments of World War II.

They complain about being on the receiving end, but once they're at the top they start giving them out. Typical.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

What's more insulting is this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutse ... h-control/
So that's how the Jewish majority will be maintained. Forced eugenics! Yay Israel!

That Israel should allegedly engage in this activity is particularly shocking, considering the practice was widely used by the Germans throughout the Shoah. While the scale and effects of these operations cannot be compared, Israel’s implicit intent to limit ‘burdensome’ (read: undesirable) portions of the population recalls the dark eugenics experiments of World War II.

They complain about being on the receiving end, but once they're at the top they start giving them out. Typical.

Neither is justifiable, but you'd think that the people who'd understand this the best would be the Jewish population.

[Rehansu Tir]

The question is: do you want someone else's right to come at the expense of yours?

As a gay man, I don't want to see the LGBT community in israel (secular, jewish, christian, arab) suffer for the palestinians, which is what would happen to LGBTs in a palestinian controlled state, as it already does to palestinian gays and lesbians - which is why so many of them risk their lives to sneak into israel.

It almost seems like you're saying that LGBT interests would be best served through a two-state solution...

They are. Gays and and lesbians have better lives in israel, whether they are jewish or arab.

You also have to recognize that the animosity and distrust that currently exists between jews and arabs in israel is the by-product of the continued was between israelis and palestinians. After a peace treaty has been signed and there has been time for israeli society to finally move forward (something they are not able to do effectively now), this animosity will decrease. And you may even see changes to israeli immigration laws that will allow arab refugees from palestinian to enter israel on the grounds that they face discrimination on the basis of their sexual orientation in palestine.

[Rehansu Tir]

This straight from someone who'll probably recite some Special People excuse to justify Israel. Hilarious.

I'm of the mind that there should be two states, one for ethnic jews (Israel) with minority populations and one for ethnic palestinians (palestine) with minority populations, including jews who choose to live there.

This has nothing to do with special people one way or another. Just ethnic states to protect ethnic populations, their cultures, beliefs, rights and freedoms.

[Rehansu Tir]

racism in common usage has been extended to include discrimination based on ethnicity as well. since there is as of yet no word for ethnicism, we just use racism. 9 times out of 10 people that come in to nitpick over it are, just, well, pointlessly nitpicking.

No, it hasn't. Ethnic-based bigotry is just that. Racism is something else entirely.

you're going to be hard pressed to find people that consider arabs white.

Oh really? Look at the pictures of the 4 boys who were killed, the three jews and one arab. Three of them look pretty white to me and one is darker skinned, but it's not the palestinian boy.

http://1f0hrf3k9u4d4eiecjguy0r1bn5.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/israeli-teenagers.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/02/article-2677582-1F56CA6F00000578-666_472x516.jpg

[Harkback Union]

In other news, thousands of kids have starved to death in sub-saharan africa... but who cares.

[Rehansu Tir]

Ok, that's insulting. And I'm not even jewish, but as a thinking reasoning person, I find that insulting.

What's more insulting is this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutse ... h-control/
So that's how the Jewish majority will be maintained. Forced eugenics! Yay Israel!

Old story that was discredited shortly after it was published. The women were at a women's health clinic and voluntarily received depoprovara shots, which is a short-term birth control that doesn't have to be taken daily, unlike the pill. No one was forced and no one was sterilized. What a joke.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

What's more insulting is this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutse ... h-control/
So that's how the Jewish majority will be maintained. Forced eugenics! Yay Israel!

Old story that was discredited shortly after it was published. The women were at a women's health clinic and voluntarily received depoprovara shots, which is a short-term birth control that doesn't have to be taken daily, unlike the pill. No one was forced and no one was sterilized. What a joke.

Any evidence of what you say? Because all I can find is articles saying that it happened and was done without genuine consent.
Here's haaretz saying Israel admitted to the sterilization:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... m-1.496519