Israel / Gaza / Hamas Mega-Thread

[Evraim]

Good.

However, I'm sure they haven't arrested anyone for the beating of his (the murdered Palestinian boy) American cousin by Israeli police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhFa_kgB1cc

Is there a newsletter source?

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Birth control is not equivalent to sterilization. Your source says the women were given long-lasting birth control shots. From the articles, I've read all parties consented, though there may have been problems with communication and cultural differences, namely linguistic and cultural barriers prevented women from understanding what the exact effects of the drugs would be. The drug in question has an effective duration of three months. That is far from sterilization, which generally entails permanent infertility.

Still not okay, and a slippery slope that could easily lead to sterilization. Which people on this very thread has said may be a solution to Palestinians overpopulating Israelis.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

I'll trust this person's opinion about what constitutes Apartheid over anyone else:
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ans-344874

Remember when Israel apologists were bitching about Jimmy Carter calling it an apartheid state? Yeah, I'd like to see what kind of excuse they'll come up with to dismiss Tutu, a man who arguably knows about apartheid first hand.

Jimmy Carter is bae. And I'll come for anyone who comes for him.

[Evraim]

Remember when Israel apologists were bitching about Jimmy Carter calling it an apartheid state? Yeah, I'd like to see what kind of excuse they'll come up with to dismiss Tutu, a man who arguably knows about apartheid first hand.

Israel is committing apartheid, but, then again, many countries are at this point in time. Turkey made it illegal for Kurds to speak their own language or to express themselves culturally or politically for a long time. Syria openly discriminates against Sunnis. Egypt has allowed pogroms against the Coptic community. Iraq discriminated against the Shiites and Kurds. Saudi Arabia and the UAE discriminate against Jews, Shiites, and anyone who isn't a Sunni, even blocking non-Muslims from certain cities. These were official policies of governments. The reason Israel is the epicenter of debates on apartheid is because it plays into the anti-colonialist myth.

Still not okay, and a slippery slope that could easily lead to sterilization. Which people on this very thread has said may be a solution to Palestinians overpopulating Israelis.

It isn't okay, which is why the government took measures to ensure that clinics would convey adequate information to women before administering the drugs in the future, according to your own source. I would prefer not to assume the worst of people, namely that they performed such injections for racist motives, but rather I'll give credence to the mainstream sources that are asserting that linguistic and cultural barriers caused a misunderstanding that is now being rectified.

I haven't seen a source saying that this was part of a eugenics program or that it affected the Israeli Arab minority. I doubt this would even apply to self-identified Palestinians, though it might well be to their benefit to control the rate of population growth considering their economic conditions. The same applies to the Charedim and other destitute groups. Having five to ten children when you can barely afford a non-condemned house isn't the brightest idea.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Remember when Israel apologists were bitching about Jimmy Carter calling it an apartheid state? Yeah, I'd like to see what kind of excuse they'll come up with to dismiss Tutu, a man who arguably knows about apartheid first hand.

Israel is committing apartheid, but, then again, many countries are at this point in time. Turkey made it illegal for Kurds to speak their own language or to express themselves culturally or politically for a long time. Syria openly discriminates against Sunnis. Egypt has allowed pogroms against the Coptic community. Iraq discriminated against the Shiites and Kurds. Saudi Arabia and the UAE discriminate against Jews, Shiites, and anyone who isn't a Sunni, even blocking non-Muslims from certain cities. These were official policies of governments. The reason Israel is the epicenter of debates on apartheid is because it plays into the anti-colonialist myth.

That hardly makes it okay, for one.
Two, a lot of people are talking about those countries as well, and their disgusting actions.
Three, all of those countries have one thing in common: they're American allies. America has a key part in all of these things, and it's important that we acknowledge that.
Four, while I'm unsure of what you mean with the "anti-colonialist myth" I'm sure I disagree with whatever it is.

[Rehansu Tir]

They are using force to occupy land that's not theres. THAT'S LITERALLY COLONIZATION.

NO - THAT'S WAR! you do realize that they're at war with one another, don't you?

So you're actually claiming Palestinians are a privileged group on the world stage? Because I'd have to beg to differ with that idea.

Yes, actually. They receive more aid per capita than any other population in the world, approximately $8,000 per person, in a country where the average annual salary is less than $2,000.

Compare that to say South sudan, which receives $146 per capita, or the poorest country in the world the DR Congo, which receives a paltry $44 per capita.

The fact that all that aid money is squandered and disappears into the private bank accounts of the palestinian leaders is a different issue altogether.

then there's the obesity crisis (because you know they're all starving) with an obesity rate nearly 3 times that in the united states.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf21QqvHauw
http://www.who.int/hac/crises/internati ... ne2005.pdf

And there's the 5 star hotels in gaza, the luxury malls, the theme parks, the shelves stocked with food, and the fact that most of the "refugees" in the WB and Gaza don't have to work because they receive a salary from UNWRA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o37GHxe ... re=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yOJQuL ... re=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU5NmRk ... re=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHBwE0c ... re=related

[Alyakia]

Remember when Israel apologists were bitching about Jimmy Carter calling it an apartheid state? Yeah, I'd like to see what kind of excuse they'll come up with to dismiss Tutu, a man who arguably knows about apartheid first hand.

Israel is committing apartheid, but, then again, many countries are at this point in time. Turkey made it illegal for Kurds to speak their own language or to express themselves culturally or politically for a long time. Syria openly discriminates against Sunnis. Egypt has allowed pogroms against the Coptic community. Iraq discriminated against the Shiites and Kurds. Saudi Arabia and the UAE discriminate against Jews, Shiites, and anyone who isn't a Sunni, even blocking non-Muslims from certain cities. These were official policies of governments. The reason Israel is the epicenter of debates on apartheid is because it plays into the anti-colonialist myth.

i think the reason israel is the epicenter of debates on apartheid is that obama and half of NSG have never come out and defended not letting women drive

[Gauthier]

Israel is committing apartheid, but, then again, many countries are at this point in time. Turkey made it illegal for Kurds to speak their own language or to express themselves culturally or politically for a long time. Syria openly discriminates against Sunnis. Egypt has allowed pogroms against the Coptic community. Iraq discriminated against the Shiites and Kurds. Saudi Arabia and the UAE discriminate against Jews, Shiites, and anyone who isn't a Sunni, even blocking non-Muslims from certain cities. These were official policies of governments. The reason Israel is the epicenter of debates on apartheid is because it plays into the anti-colonialist myth.

That hardly makes it okay, for one.
Two, a lot of people are talking about those countries as well, and their disgusting actions.
Three, all of those countries have one thing in common: they're American allies. America has a key part in all of these things, and it's important that we acknowledge that.
Four, while I'm unsure of what you mean with the "anti-colonialist myth" I'm sure I disagree with whatever it is.

Syria is the only exception, but the other examples still stand.

Also, Iraq has turned around 180 and openly discriminates against Sunnis now. This along with Syria has roused up Sunni resentment to where they pretty much supported ISIS/ISIL in its land grab.

[Gravlen]

But the state of Israel is a colonizing nation. It's an imperialist nation. Regardless of whether there were Jewish people immigrating to that area before Israel, Israel is an imperialist force.

Why? How? By the definition you provided they aren't. Do you now have a different definition that you would like to use for israel and no one else?

They routinely ignore the bulldozing of houses.

For the love of... the palestinian authorities regularly bulldoze palestinian houses as well.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle ... s_in_gaza/

"If they left for their safety, they are refugees, regardless."

No, if they left to protect themselves from the israelis/jews they are refugees. if they left to make it easier for their own military to attack and kill israeli/jews, they are complicit in the war.

But even so, those "refugees" are almost all dead. The vast majority of people living in palestinian "refugee camps" today have never even seen the WB or gaza, let alone israel. The UN had to twist and reinterpret their own definitions of refugees so much to make these individuals qualify as refugees, that they had to create a separate agency to address palestinian "refugees" than the one that addresses and serves all other refugees in the world. No other group in the world is permitted to use the definition of "refugee" that has been created for the palestinians.

You've got it the wrong way around. UNWRA and the definition of refugee used by the agency came into existence before UNHCR and the definition used in the Refugee Convention; in 1949 and 1950 respectively. It should also be noted that the UNHCR was not intended to be a permanent body when it was founded.

[Rehansu Tir]

Tell me this: If israel did remove the settlements, what would be left to negotiate? The terms under which the palestinians would stop attacking israel and israeli civilians?

i really need to check at this point you know the difference between the west bank and gaza the the administrations thereof[/quote]

So you're not going to answer the question?

And the unity government runs both the WB and Gaza, or haven't you been paying attention?

[Alyakia]

NO - THAT'S WAR! you do realize that they're at war with one another, don't you?

no. it's colonization. you tell by how they tried to annex it, then built colonies there. it's hard to figure out, but you'll get it soon enough. if you need any more help, you can consult the geneva conventions or literally every other country on earth for more information on why israel isn't allowed to do this.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

They are using force to occupy land that's not theres. THAT'S LITERALLY COLONIZATION.

NO - THAT'S WAR! you do realize that they're at war with one another, don't you?

So you're actually claiming Palestinians are a privileged group on the world stage? Because I'd have to beg to differ with that idea.

Yes, actually. They receive more aid per capita than any other population in the world, approximately $8,000 per person, in a country where the average annual salary is less than $2,000.

Compare that to say South sudan, which receives $146 per capita, or the poorest country in the world the DR Congo, which receives a paltry $44 per capita.

The fact that all that aid money is squandered and disappears into the private bank accounts of the palestinian leaders is a different issue altogether.

then there's the obesity crisis (because you know they're all starving) with an obesity rate nearly 3 times that in the united states.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf21QqvHauw
http://www.who.int/hac/crises/internati ... ne2005.pdf

And there's the 5 star hotels in gaza, the luxury malls, the theme parks, the shelves stocked with food, and the fact that most of the "refugees" in the WB and Gaza don't have to work because they receive a salary from UNWRA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o37GHxe ... re=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yOJQuL ... re=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU5NmRk ... re=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHBwE0c ... re=related

None of those last things have anything to do with what this conversation. Except maybe the aid, which again, you provided no source to prove what you've said.

Similar to the war that the white Europeans fought with the Native Americans, right?
I don't consider that a war, I consider that what's the word?? Oh, that's right a genocide, based on imperialism and colonization.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

That hardly makes it okay, for one.
Two, a lot of people are talking about those countries as well, and their disgusting actions.
Three, all of those countries have one thing in common: they're American allies. America has a key part in all of these things, and it's important that we acknowledge that.
Four, while I'm unsure of what you mean with the "anti-colonialist myth" I'm sure I disagree with whatever it is.

Syria is the only exception, but the other examples still stand.

Also, Iraq has turned around 180 and openly discriminates against Sunnis now. This along with Syria has roused up Sunni resentment to where they pretty much supported ISIS/ISIL in its land grab.

Oh that's my bad. Syria slipped through when I read that to double check.

[Rehansu Tir]

I suggest you read this article before you start with the apartheid bullshit.

For Israel's Arabs It Is Not Apartheid by Khaled Abu Toameh

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1102/ ... -apartheid

I'll trust this person's opinion about what constitutes Apartheid over anyone else:
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ans-344874

And I'll trust someone who actually lives there about whether or not he and his family and friends and fellow arab-israelis live in an apartheid situation. I tend to trust the person on the ground over a person who has never been there.

[Rehansu Tir]

I'll trust this person's opinion about what constitutes Apartheid over anyone else:
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ans-344874

Remember when Israel apologists were bitching about Jimmy Carter calling it an apartheid state? Yeah, I'd like to see what kind of excuse they'll come up with to dismiss Tutu, a man who arguably knows about apartheid first hand.

but has never actually been to israel and so has to rely on the biased accounts of palestinian apologists to educate him and form his opinion. I'll trust the arab guy who actually lives there, thanks.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

I'll trust this person's opinion about what constitutes Apartheid over anyone else:
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ans-344874

And I'll trust someone who actually lives there about whether or not he and his family and friends and fellow arab-israelis live in an apartheid situation. I tend to trust the person on the ground over a person who has never been there.

Oh.. So Desmond Tutu doesn't know what Apartheid is? I'm glad we've cleared that up. Also, Tutu has been to Palestine and investigated things there at the behest of the UN. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't hold any weight.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Remember when Israel apologists were bitching about Jimmy Carter calling it an apartheid state? Yeah, I'd like to see what kind of excuse they'll come up with to dismiss Tutu, a man who arguably knows about apartheid first hand.

but has never actually been to israel and so has to rely on the biased accounts of palestinian apologists to educate him and form his opinion. I'll trust the arab guy who actually lives there, thanks.

Where's the bias for Palestine? It's nowhere to be found in America, I can tell you that.
Also, Jimmy Carter is a very intelligent person, who was President of America. And also, once again, Carter has visited Israel. So, ONCE AGAIN, your statements hold no weight.

[Alyakia]

So you're not going to answer the question?

And the unity government runs both the WB and Gaza, or haven't you been paying attention?

just look up some attempts at negotiation and tell me what you find being negotiated. you don't get to continue flagrantly breaking international law and spitting in the face of your allies because you think it'll good for you politically btw.

[Rehansu Tir]

That hardly makes it okay, for one.
Two, a lot of people are talking about those countries as well, and their disgusting actions.
Three, all of those countries have one thing in common: they're American allies. America has a key part in all of these things, and it's important that we acknowledge that.
Four, while I'm unsure of what you mean with the "anti-colonialist myth" I'm sure I disagree with whatever it is.

Personally, I prefer the future palestinian state, which we've been assured by both abbas and his ministers will be a jew-free country, cuz who wants to live with jews. yuck.

"In a recent discussion of the anticipated Palestinian state, Mahmoud Abbas, leader in the territory, said he "would not tolerate one single Jew in his new country, Palestine." Speaking before journalists in Ramallah, he clearly noted, "We have already said, completely openly, and it will stay that way: 'If there is a Palestinian country with Jerusalem as its capital, we will not accept that even one single Jew will live there.'""

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1854/abbas-agenda

"PLO's US Ambassador: 'No Jews Will Be Permitted In Palestine'"

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.ca/2011/09 ... ll-be.html


Maybe israel should learn from the palestinian example - there's no worry about apartheid if you just get rid of the minority population, right abbas.

[Evraim]

i think the reason israel is the epicenter of debates on apartheid is that obama and half of NSG have never come out and defended not letting women drive

That's a shallow answer. The paradigm of anti-colonialism frames the issue and even one's perspective of the world. I don't defend Israel's crimes, though I dispute some the alleged crimes, which generally emerge from more histrionic sources. However, rather few people express interest in Egyptian, Lebanese, Jordanian, or Syrian discrimination against Palestinian minorities. Few people talk about how Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and Iran discriminate and commit(ed) apartheid against the Kurdish minority by denying them adequate cultural expression. Few people talk about how most of the Middle East is filled with bigotry, ethnic and religious discrimination, and misogyny. We don't even chastise authoritarian regimes like China, North Korea, and Uganda as much as we chastise Israel.

When we hear of these crimes, we shrug our shoulders and ask what we could expect from such savages. There are a number of problems with this response. First, in many instances, it has a tinge of racism to it. We shouldn't expect any better from the Arabs because stoning women and bombing mosques is part of their nature and culture. We treat the Jews differently because we see them as white and European. They should know better. Second, it represents a genuine double standard under the classical definition of that term. We're treating two peoples differently because of their figurative race. Third, we accept injustice, electing only to fight against it when the perpetrators may actually change their ways. This strikes me as cowardly. Fourth, we view the Israelis who have lived in the region for more than half a century now, and who have roots there going back thousands of years, as colonizers, corrupting the connotations of said term.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

That hardly makes it okay, for one.
Two, a lot of people are talking about those countries as well, and their disgusting actions.
Three, all of those countries have one thing in common: they're American allies. America has a key part in all of these things, and it's important that we acknowledge that.
Four, while I'm unsure of what you mean with the "anti-colonialist myth" I'm sure I disagree with whatever it is.

Personally, I prefer the future palestinian state, which we've been assured by both abbas and his ministers will be a jew-free country, cuz who wants to live with jews. yuck.

"In a recent discussion of the anticipated Palestinian state, Mahmoud Abbas, leader in the territory, said he "would not tolerate one single Jew in his new country, Palestine." Speaking before journalists in Ramallah, he clearly noted, "We have already said, completely openly, and it will stay that way: 'If there is a Palestinian country with Jerusalem as its capital, we will not accept that even one single Jew will live there.'""

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1854/abbas-agenda

"PLO's US Ambassador: 'No Jews Will Be Permitted In Palestine'"

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.ca/2011/09 ... ll-be.html


Maybe israel should learn from the palestinian example - there's no worry about apartheid if you just get rid of the minority population, right abbas.

Any actual news sources for any of this? I don't know what either of those are, and have never heard of either. Any confirmation of any of this from reliable, unbiased media? Also way to move past the fact that I've proved your points about Tutu and Carter wrong.

[Rehansu Tir]

NO - THAT'S WAR! you do realize that they're at war with one another, don't you?

no. it's colonization. you tell by how they tried to annex it, then built colonies there. it's hard to figure out, but you'll get it soon enough. if you need any more help, you can consult the geneva conventions or literally every other country on earth for more information on why israel isn't allowed to do this.

They haven't tried to annex it. in fact they've refused to annex it, which is what some palestinian apologists actually want them to do, as it would make the palestinians living there israeli citizens. Israel has only annexed east jerusalem and has a standing offer of citizenship for every palestinian living there.

The geneva conventions allow israel to occupy the wb and gaza during a time of war, which is on-going. what it does not allow them to do, which I've already stipulated to, is to create settlements and move populations into the occupied territories. But the settlements are there and they're the reality on the ground. The occupation itself is not illegal and the presence of israeli troops within the occupied WB is legal, considering the state of war that exists between the israelis and the palestinians.

[Gauthier]

That hardly makes it okay, for one.
Two, a lot of people are talking about those countries as well, and their disgusting actions.
Three, all of those countries have one thing in common: they're American allies. America has a key part in all of these things, and it's important that we acknowledge that.
Four, while I'm unsure of what you mean with the "anti-colonialist myth" I'm sure I disagree with whatever it is.

Personally, I prefer the future palestinian state, which we've been assured by both abbas and his ministers will be a jew-free country, cuz who wants to live with jews. yuck.

"In a recent discussion of the anticipated Palestinian state, Mahmoud Abbas, leader in the territory, said he "would not tolerate one single Jew in his new country, Palestine." Speaking before journalists in Ramallah, he clearly noted, "We have already said, completely openly, and it will stay that way: 'If there is a Palestinian country with Jerusalem as its capital, we will not accept that even one single Jew will live there.'""

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1854/abbas-agenda

"PLO's US Ambassador: 'No Jews Will Be Permitted In Palestine'"

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.ca/2011/09 ... ll-be.html


Maybe israel should learn from the palestinian example - there's no worry about apartheid if you just get rid of the minority population, right abbas.

Gatestone Institute. Headed by John "Wally Walrus Fuck the UN" Bolton. Definitely an impartial source.

And a blog. Another victory for objectivity, yay!

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Personally, I prefer the future palestinian state, which we've been assured by both abbas and his ministers will be a jew-free country, cuz who wants to live with jews. yuck.

"In a recent discussion of the anticipated Palestinian state, Mahmoud Abbas, leader in the territory, said he "would not tolerate one single Jew in his new country, Palestine." Speaking before journalists in Ramallah, he clearly noted, "We have already said, completely openly, and it will stay that way: 'If there is a Palestinian country with Jerusalem as its capital, we will not accept that even one single Jew will live there.'""

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1854/abbas-agenda

"PLO's US Ambassador: 'No Jews Will Be Permitted In Palestine'"

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.ca/2011/09 ... ll-be.html


Maybe israel should learn from the palestinian example - there's no worry about apartheid if you just get rid of the minority population, right abbas.

Gatestone Institute. Headed by John "Wally Walrus Fuck the UN" Bolton. Definitely an impartial source.

And a blog. Another victory for objectivity, yay!

Seriously though. This is a mess.

[Rehansu Tir]

Similar to the war that the white Europeans fought with the Native Americans, right?
I don't consider that a war, I consider that what's the word?? Oh, that's right a genocide, based on imperialism and colonization.

But genocide, by it's very definition, requires that the population that is the victim of genocide decrease.

This is not true of the palestinians. The palestinian population has doubles 3 times since 1968. That's not genocide, it's prosperity. Or they're just too dumb to us condoms.

The palestinians actually have the second highest birth rate in the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7891434.stm