Biggest US Supreme Court ruling of the year

[Mavorpen]

I'm sorry, I can't help you if you think the development of human life is exactly the same thing as an infectious disease that takes life.

You do realize that pregnancies have caused deaths before, right?

Such completely moronic comparisons are why the far-right groups in America think liberals are crazy. You can make a better comparison.

No, not really.

If you can't tell us why they're different enough to make an absolute distinction, I'll just accept your concession then.

[Doitsu-san]

If you wish to have sex, you should fund it yourself. It isn't the employer's responsibility to pay for an employee's sexual activities when the activities are a risk taken with consent and not necessary to everyday life or the health of a human being.

Obviously the part about contraceptives preventing actual diseases and not just being for baby prevention flew over your head.

Contraception prevents diseases during sex, and sex is completely optional. It isn't an employer's responsibility to pay for an employee doing something that they could live without and isn't necessary to their health.

It's like asking employers to pay for protective football gear, when their employees could just not play football in the first place or buy the gear themselves.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

No, really, why ARE they different things?

I'm sorry, I can't help you if you think the development of human life is exactly the same thing as an infectious disease that takes life. You need to take that up with your psychiatrist.

Such completely moronic comparisons are why the far-right groups in America think liberals are crazy. You can make a better comparison.

But contraception is NOT just about preventing pregnancy nor is it just for things relating to sexual activity. And if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she has every right to obtain contraception. And if that woman is poor, or even lower-middle class she may not be able to afford that contraception by herself.

[Ashmoria]

no

its more "if corporations are people too, can they have a religious conscience that overrules some details of federal law?"

or "if you own a corporation yourself can your religious beliefs count as the beliefs of the corporation?"

My gut feeling though, was that there was more to it than that under the surface. My reason is that these corporations never before demanded religious exemption to allowing employees to have contraceptions or abortions but now that they have to help the employees pay for the stuff, now they are claiming religious exemptions.

not to mention that (I have read) hobby lobby used to offer insurance that paid for contraceptives that they now find horribly offensive to their religious sensibilities.

[Neo Rome Republic]

No, really, why ARE they different things?

I'm sorry, I can't help you if you think the development of human life is exactly the same thing as an infectious disease that takes life. You need to take that up with your psychiatrist.

Such completely moronic comparisons are why the far-right groups in America think liberals are crazy. You can make a better comparison.

And we should care about the opinions of Far-Right groups, because?

[Estrain (Ancient)]

Obviously the part about contraceptives preventing actual diseases and not just being for baby prevention flew over your head.

Contraception prevents diseases during sex, and sex is completely optional. It isn't an employer's responsibility to pay for an employee doing something that they could live without and isn't necessary to their health.

It's like asking employers to pay for protective football gear, when their employees could just not play football in the first place or buy the gear themselves.

That's kind of a false comparison. One, contraception is used for other things not relating to sexual activity. Two, it IS under federal law corporations/employers responsibility to help pay for their employees health coverage. Contraception is an important part of health coverage.

[Trollzilla]

So my thoughts:

Honestly, the only good side of this ruling is that it only applies to companies that are owned by families. So if you have a family like the Greens who own Hobby Lobby, then this ruling applies to them. This is ironic considering that my brother and I are now running a dog kennel together, which means this ruling also applies to me.

With that being said though, I do think this ruling opened up a Pandora's Box because now religious freedom can, and most likely will be used in discriminatory practices in these type of businesses. I also feel like this court went against the spirit and purpose of the 1993 Freedom Restoration Act (FRA). FRA was created and passed by Congress, signed by President Clinton to protect Native Americans in Oregon from being denied employment benefits because they smoke something that I cannot spell for religious purpose. FRA was meant to protect the little guys from big government and big corporations when it comes to their religion, not the other way around.

This ruling could also destroy the Corporate Veil, which could be bad news for corporate owners and shareholders.

Considering I was on the battle ground for the FRA, peyote was only one of the reasons and a minor one. The main reason Congress passed it was because schools across the US were suspending students for reading bibles, having religious meetings during lunch time, or wearing clothes that had scripture on them. The peyote issue only brought the Democrats to support a bill that was already going to pass because of Republican dominance of Congress at the time.

EDIT: I want to add that when we lobbied for this law, we never intended it to be used as cover by secular corporations to escape their legal responsibilities.

[Farnhamia]

No, really, why ARE they different things?

I'm sorry, I can't help you if you think the development of human life is exactly the same thing as an infectious disease that takes life. You need to take that up with your psychiatrist.

Such completely moronic comparisons are why the far-right groups in America think liberals are crazy. You can make a better comparison.

Do not start down the road of implying anything about anyone's mental health in this discussion. That goes for everybody.

[Doitsu-san]

If you wish to have sex, you should fund it yourself. It isn't the employer's responsibility to pay for an employee's sexual activities when the activities are a risk taken with consent and not necessary to everyday life or the health of a human being.

But according to the ACA it is the employer's responsibility to pay for their employees health coverage at least in some way. Contraception is a vital piece of health care and health coverage. But sex is an everyday life thing? (for a lot of people, barring asexual people and the like) Contraception stops unwanted pregnancy from happening, disease spreading, etc.
Also, again to quote Justice Ginsburg:
"It bears note in this regard that the cost of an IUD is nearly equivalent to a month's full-time pay for workers earning the minimum wage."
Contraception isn't cheap, and a lot of people cannot afford to pay for it on their own.

No, contraception is not a vital piece of health coverage. Contraception is covering an optional activity that has little benefit to human health.

With contraception being so pricey, employees can either choose not to have sex or buy a pack of condoms, which I recall cost about $10.

[The American Natives]

You do realize that pregnancies have caused deaths before, right?

So causing deaths is what makes something an infectious disease? We better ban pools, there's an epidemic of poolitis causing drownings.

No, not really.

If you can't tell us why they're different enough to make an absolute distinction, I'll just accept your concession then.

Yes, really. If you can't fine any reason why they're the same thing besides both can cause death (in completely disproportionate levels), you aren't making a case at all. I'll just accept you're shitposting.

[Farnhamia]

Obviously the part about contraceptives preventing actual diseases and not just being for baby prevention flew over your head.

Contraception prevents diseases during sex, and sex is completely optional. It isn't an employer's responsibility to pay for an employee doing something that they could live without and isn't necessary to their health.

It's like asking employers to pay for protective football gear, when their employees could just not play football in the first place or buy the gear themselves.

Only condoms can prevent the transmission of disease. The Pill, for instance, cannot.

[The American Natives]

And we should care about the opinions of Far-Right groups, because?

Healthy attitude there. Giving no fucks is certainly the best way to resolve conflict and find common ground.

Of course, why should they care either? Their side won.

[Ashmoria]

Obviously the part about contraceptives preventing actual diseases and not just being for baby prevention flew over your head.

Contraception prevents diseases during sex, and sex is completely optional. It isn't an employer's responsibility to pay for an employee doing something that they could live without and isn't necessary to their health.

It's like asking employers to pay for protective football gear, when their employees could just not play football in the first place or buy the gear themselves.

except that the insurance company is paying for the contraceptives. the employer is paying for he insurance. the federal government has passed a (really great) law mandating what has to be covered in a standard insurance plan so that no one gets tricked into buying substandard insurance that will crap out when you get sick. preventing unintended pregnancies is one of the very best health-insuring, cost-cutting measures for insurance to cover.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

But according to the ACA it is the employer's responsibility to pay for their employees health coverage at least in some way. Contraception is a vital piece of health care and health coverage. But sex is an everyday life thing? (for a lot of people, barring asexual people and the like) Contraception stops unwanted pregnancy from happening, disease spreading, etc.
Also, again to quote Justice Ginsburg:
"It bears note in this regard that the cost of an IUD is nearly equivalent to a month's full-time pay for workers earning the minimum wage."
Contraception isn't cheap, and a lot of people cannot afford to pay for it on their own.

No, contraception is not a vital piece of health coverage. Contraception is covering an optional activity that has little benefit to human health.

With contraception being so pricey, employees can either choose not to have sex or buy a pack of condoms, which I recall cost about $10.

But they shouldn't have to /choose/ not to have sex. Sex is a vital part of relationships (not including asexual relationships, etc). Ten dollars can be a lot to some people, sweetie. Also, condoms aren't 100% effective and aren't always available. An IUD is always available because it's inside of a woman's body. And yes, contraception is an important part of health coverage because women need it.

[Mavorpen]

So causing deaths is what makes something an infectious disease? We better ban pools, there's an epidemic of poolitis causing drownings.

Who said it's an infectious disease?

Yes, really. If you can't fine any reason why they're the same thing besides both can cause death (in completely disproportionate levels), you aren't making a case at all.

Yeah, you might want to learn what the burden of proof is. Because you made the original claim that they are different enough to provide one but not the other. So far you've just made childish remarks about "HERP SHITPOSTING!" and mental health. You've put no effort in presenting ANYTHING resembling a coherent argument.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Contraception prevents diseases during sex, and sex is completely optional. It isn't an employer's responsibility to pay for an employee doing something that they could live without and isn't necessary to their health.

It's like asking employers to pay for protective football gear, when their employees could just not play football in the first place or buy the gear themselves.

Only condoms can prevent the transmission of disease. The Pill, for instance, cannot.

I've never been clear on this: does the mandate cover condoms?

[Neo Rome Republic]

And we should care about the opinions of Far-Right groups, because?

Healthy attitude there. Giving no fucks is certainly the best way to resolve conflict and find common ground.

Of course, why should they care either? Their side won.

Implying I even want to find common ground with them.
Yeah you're likely correct, they probably don't care either. Oh well.

[Mavorpen]

Contraception is covering an optional activity that has little benefit to human health.

Cutting down risk of heart disease in HALF is of little benefit to human health?

[Doitsu-san]

Contraception prevents diseases during sex, and sex is completely optional. It isn't an employer's responsibility to pay for an employee doing something that they could live without and isn't necessary to their health.

It's like asking employers to pay for protective football gear, when their employees could just not play football in the first place or buy the gear themselves.

That's kind of a false comparison. One, contraception is used for other things not relating to sexual activity. Two, it IS under federal law corporations/employers responsibility to help pay for their employees health coverage. Contraception is an important part of health coverage.

Contraception is hardly used outside of sexual activity, and when it is, it's uses have no/little affect on bodily health and can easily be replaced by other products which work far better. The key word is "health coverage", sex has nothing to do with health coverage, as sex is an option that carries risks, not an unknowingly contracted sickness or disease.

[Ashmoria]

But according to the ACA it is the employer's responsibility to pay for their employees health coverage at least in some way. Contraception is a vital piece of health care and health coverage. But sex is an everyday life thing? (for a lot of people, barring asexual people and the like) Contraception stops unwanted pregnancy from happening, disease spreading, etc.
Also, again to quote Justice Ginsburg:
"It bears note in this regard that the cost of an IUD is nearly equivalent to a month's full-time pay for workers earning the minimum wage."
Contraception isn't cheap, and a lot of people cannot afford to pay for it on their own.

No, contraception is not a vital piece of health coverage. Contraception is covering an optional activity that has little benefit to human health.

With contraception being so pricey, employees can either choose not to have sex or buy a pack of condoms, which I recall cost about $10.

contraception is essential to women's health.

[Olivaero]

Why is avoiding small pox and avoiding pregnancy different things?

I can't believe someone made this argument in a serious fashion. Relieve humanity by telling us you're being sarcastic.

I'm not and I would question why you believe they are different things.

[Doitsu-san]

Contraception is covering an optional activity that has little benefit to human health.

Cutting down risk of heart disease in HALF is of little benefit to human health?

If you want to reduce your risk of heart disease, buy the pill yourself. I decrease my risk of heart disease buy buying vitamins, and I don't believe my employers cover that.

[Trollzilla]

I side with the company. If your regligious beliefs are against it, you should not have to deal with it. Besides, they're paying for legalized murder.

1) Using the United States Laws, prove that abortion of legalized murder, keep in mind that a fetus does not have personhood under our current laws.

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It'll be interesting to see if Hobby Lobby's current insurer will back out of the corporation. As far as I can tell, Insurance companies would rather pay for contraceptive than for children, because surprise surprise, contraceptive are cheaper.

As someone who is anti abortion and who has taken the time to actually research what these pills do, I am amazed that a lot of Americans still think the morning after pill causes abortions. I feel that the credibility of the pro life movement suffers somewhat as a result because people won't do their homework.

[Farnhamia]

1) Using the United States Laws, prove that abortion of legalized murder, keep in mind that a fetus does not have personhood under our current laws.

---

It'll be interesting to see if Hobby Lobby's current insurer will back out of the corporation. As far as I can tell, Insurance companies would rather pay for contraceptive than for children, because surprise surprise, contraceptive are cheaper.

As someone who is anti abortion and who has taken the time to actually research what these pills do, I am amazed that a lot of Americans still think the morning after pill causes abortions. I feel that the credibility of the pro life movement suffers somewhat as a result because people won't do their homework.

No true anti-abortion person would soil themselves with that kind of research.

[Estrain (Ancient)]

That's kind of a false comparison. One, contraception is used for other things not relating to sexual activity. Two, it IS under federal law corporations/employers responsibility to help pay for their employees health coverage. Contraception is an important part of health coverage.

Contraception is hardly used outside of sexual activity, and when it is, it's uses have no/little affect on bodily health and can easily be replaced by other products which work far better. The key word is "health coverage", sex has nothing to do with health coverage, as sex is an option that carries risks, not an unknowingly contracted sickness or disease.

Sex has everything to do with health coverage. That's pretty clear, whether you disagree or not, that doesn't matter really.
Other uses of contraception:
1) Lowering cancer rates
2) Lighter, less painful periods
3) Clearer skin
4) PMS relief
5) Endometriosis relief
http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/ ... e-the-pill
Also, 1/3 of teens use contraception exclusively for other reasons, let alone the people who use them for both to prevent pregnancy and the aforementioned reasons:
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2011/11/15/