NationStates

The Liberated Territories wrote:It looks like Detroit needs a little capitalism.

So private companies will provide for reduced cost what a public government shut off completely?

No. I understand Detroit's government has been extremely inefficient these past few decades, but if they shut off water because they need money, so will a private business. That's capitalism. I support it for computers, but not for water.

The Liberated Territories wrote:It looks like Detroit needs a little capitalism.

How do you have competition for water delivery?

The Liberated Territories wrote:It looks like Detroit needs a little capitalism.

It's the failure of local government trying to tax its' way to prosperity. Detroit's property taxes were too high thus creating an exodus. The city increased water fees as to make up for the exodus.

The Serbian Empire wrote:

The Liberated Territories wrote:It looks like Detroit needs a little capitalism.

It's the failure of local government trying to tax its' way to prosperity. Detroit's property taxes were too high thus creating an exodus. The city increased water fees as to make up for the exodus.

How much are the property taxes?

Lalaki wrote:

The Liberated Territories wrote:It looks like Detroit needs a little capitalism.

So private companies will provide for reduced cost what a public government shut off completely?

No. I understand Detroit's government has been extremely inefficient these past few decades, but if they shut off water because they need money, so will a private business. That's capitalism. I support it for computers, but not for water.

Detroit might be the only place where capitalism could have worked as the city was overcharging in hopes of avoiding bankruptcy. According to what I have read, Detroit's water rate was more than five times higher than Washington D.C.'s

The Serbian Empire wrote:

Lalaki wrote:
So private companies will provide for reduced cost what a public government shut off completely?

No. I understand Detroit's government has been extremely inefficient these past few decades, but if they shut off water because they need money, so will a private business. That's capitalism. I support it for computers, but not for water.

Detroit might be the only place where capitalism could have worked as the city was overcharging in hopes of avoiding bankruptcy. According to what I have read, Detroit's water rate was more than five times higher than Washington D.C.'s

Detroit seems to be an extremely strange anomaly in the United States. What made it collapse? Usually the places we hear of being full of poverty are minor cities and neighborhoods, but Detroit used to be the top of its class.

The Black Forrest wrote:

The Serbian Empire wrote:It's the failure of local government trying to tax its' way to prosperity. Detroit's property taxes were too high thus creating an exodus. The city increased water fees as to make up for the exodus.

How much are the property taxes?

Here's a chart. They're pretty high.

The Black Forrest wrote:

The Serbian Empire wrote:It's the failure of local government trying to tax its' way to prosperity. Detroit's property taxes were too high thus creating an exodus. The city increased water fees as to make up for the exodus.

How much are the property taxes?

An effective rate of 3%... so $300 for a house worth $10,000 for example. Only Columbus, Ohio has a higher rate.

Lalaki wrote:

The Serbian Empire wrote:Detroit might be the only place where capitalism could have worked as the city was overcharging in hopes of avoiding bankruptcy. According to what I have read, Detroit's water rate was more than five times higher than Washington D.C.'s

Detroit seems to be an extremely strange anomaly in the United States. What made it collapse? Usually the places we hear of being full of poverty are minor cities and neighborhoods, but Detroit used to be the top of its class.

Really? You don't know the Ballad of the Motor City?
Well, it ain't much of a ballad. But it's tragic enough. After the War, lots of soldiers came back and moved to Detroit- they worked in the auto plants. That was the city's only significant industry. Cars were the beating heart of Detroit. But as time went on, and things changed as they're liable to do, the Japanese car companies moved their production to the states, elsewhere. And that was the death knell. The plants began to close in the '80s, you know? It's been going down for a while. And the big crash in '09, that was the end of it. GM and all those companies, they hit the bottom like their shocks gave out. And with 'em, Detroit hit bottom too.

There's a lesson to take out of it: don't put all your eggs in one basket, especially when that basket is the auto industry.

Neo Arcad wrote:

Lalaki wrote:
Detroit seems to be an extremely strange anomaly in the United States. What made it collapse? Usually the places we hear of being full of poverty are minor cities and neighborhoods, but Detroit used to be the top of its class.

Really? You don't know the Ballad of the Motor City?
Well, it ain't much of a ballad. But it's tragic enough. After the War, lots of soldiers came back and moved to Detroit- they worked in the auto plants. That was the city's only significant industry. Cars were the beating heart of Detroit. But as time went on, and things changed as they're liable to do, the Japanese car companies moved their production to the states, elsewhere. And that was the death knell. The plants began to close in the '80s, you know? It's been going down for a while. And the big crash in '09, that was the end of it. GM and all those companies, they hit the bottom like their shocks gave out. And with 'em, Detroit hit bottom too.

There's a lesson to take out of it: don't put all your eggs in one basket, especially when that basket is the auto industry.

Many cities who have based themselves off of a primary industry have found ways to avoid collapse after it started to withdraw. I do understand Detroit's history and position, but what made it go down that drastically?

Lalaki wrote:

The Serbian Empire wrote:Detroit might be the only place where capitalism could have worked as the city was overcharging in hopes of avoiding bankruptcy. According to what I have read, Detroit's water rate was more than five times higher than Washington D.C.'s

Detroit seems to be an extremely strange anomaly in the United States. What made it collapse? Usually the places we hear of being full of poverty are minor cities and neighborhoods, but Detroit used to be the top of its class.

It's a combination of lack of economic diversification, taxation, and crime. The last two were present back as early as the 60s resulting in white flight. A fifty year string of fiscally liberal politicians left the city in high taxation as well.

The Serbian Empire wrote:

Lalaki wrote:
Detroit seems to be an extremely strange anomaly in the United States. What made it collapse? Usually the places we hear of being full of poverty are minor cities and neighborhoods, but Detroit used to be the top of its class.

It's a combination of lack of economic diversification, taxation, and crime. The last two were present back as early as the 60s resulting in white flight. A fifty year string of fiscally liberal politicians left the city in high taxation as well.

Yeah, you don't get your white middle class to stick around if you fuck 'em over with taxes and let the criminal element get bad. That's the other half, of course. They were riding high back then, economically, so they grew callous, fat, and foolish, the Motor City hetmans. And once they'd jumped down that slippery slope, it was too late.

Neo Arcad wrote:

The Serbian Empire wrote:It's a combination of lack of economic diversification, taxation, and crime. The last two were present back as early as the 60s resulting in white flight. A fifty year string of fiscally liberal politicians left the city in high taxation as well.

Yeah, you don't get your white middle class to stick around if you fuck 'em over with taxes and let the criminal element get bad. That's the other half, of course. They were riding high back then, economically, so they grew callous, fat, and foolish, the Motor City hetmans. And once they'd jumped down that slippery slope, it was too late.

Yep, if it was low taxes and high crime... they might have stuck around. Same if it was high taxes and low crime. But Detroit had both excessive in taxation and in crime.

Detroit's desperate for money. Such a shame.

The Serbian Empire wrote:

Neo Arcad wrote:
Yeah, you don't get your white middle class to stick around if you fuck 'em over with taxes and let the criminal element get bad. That's the other half, of course. They were riding high back then, economically, so they grew callous, fat, and foolish, the Motor City hetmans. And once they'd jumped down that slippery slope, it was too late.

Yep, if it was low taxes and high crime... they might have stuck around. Same if it was high taxes and low crime. But Detroit had both excessive in taxation and in crime.

And by the looks of this water shit, they haven't learned that that's not the solution. I'm damned sick of politicians thinking that taxation and brute force will increase revenue. Lowering taxes and making it easier on folks will make them more willing to pay rather than dodge the fees. Taxing them like this will just make them leave. D'you know, they've had something like a 60% population decrease since the '60s? And they still haven't learned shit.

Neo Arcad wrote:

The Serbian Empire wrote:Yep, if it was low taxes and high crime... they might have stuck around. Same if it was high taxes and low crime. But Detroit had both excessive in taxation and in crime.

And by the looks of this water shit, they haven't learned that that's not the solution. I'm damned sick of politicians thinking that taxation and brute force will increase revenue. Lowering taxes and making it easier on folks will make them more willing to pay rather than dodge the fees. Taxing them like this will just make them leave. D'you know, they've had something like a 60% population decrease since the '60s? And they still haven't learned shit.

It's fifty years of being a safe election spot for Democrats. With no threat from the GOP to win an election; it's become a Democrat policy hugbox. That means tax-and-spend has gone wild there.

I understand that Detroit needs funds to survive, but for the city(or their EFM) to decide that cutting off water to the point where the UN has declared a humanitarian crisis is not only counter-intuitive, it makes the city-and the country it belongs to-a global embarrassment. We are the richest country in the history of the world, yet we have decided that the poor don't deserve one of the key elements of life. If this is what we do to those who need help, then there is little hope for our future.

They should cut some slack in cases where people legitimately don't have the money.

Stuff like this is why I have not bought a house in Detroit, even though it is hard not to be tempted when you see how cheap they are. The city has just fallen apart to the point that I wouldn't feel safe and I wouldn't be comfortable being surrounded by so much poverty and dysfunction.

Water is something the state should ensure everyone has access to, even if the city and some of its people are broke. Bad Michigan, not taking care of your people.

Neo Arcad wrote:D'you know, they've had something like a 60% population decrease since the '60s?

Yeah, that's why they can't support their infrastructure with a normal tax rate, because the infrastructure is designed for a larger population than what they currently have.

Unfortunately, there is not any easy way to fix it at this point.

Nazi Flower Power wrote:They should cut some slack in cases where people legitimately don't have the money.

Stuff like this is why I have not bought a house in Detroit, even though it is hard not to be tempted when you see how cheap they are. The city has just fallen apart to the point that I wouldn't feel safe and I wouldn't be comfortable being surrounded by so much poverty and dysfunction.

Water is something the state should ensure everyone has access to, even if the city and some of its people are broke. Bad Michigan, not taking care of your people.

I think the state budget isn't large enough to fix Detroit. The place has taken terminal injuries from population hemorrhage.

I need to become Mayor of Detroit, these people need jobs.

Shie wrote:I need to become Mayor of Detroit, these people need jobs.

I think King of Spamalot might be more apropos.

I have to agree. There really isn't any way to save the city at this point, but that doesn't mean we have to be cruel to it in its final days.

Shie wrote:I need to become Mayor of Detroit, these people need jobs.

Well that's not easy. You would still be subordinate to that lovely Michigan creation, the Detroit EFM.

What the fuck Detriot.