Pope says communists are closet Christians

[4years]

What if a Communist is an open Christian?

There are plenty of Christian communists.

How does it contradict any leftist philosophies, exactly?

Well, there is the whole materialism part of dialectical materialism.

Beyond that religion is anti-science and conservative by its vary nature whereas leftist thought tends more towards rationalistic and progressive tendencies. The main roles of religion in any society are to a) justify what exits and b) provide 'explanations' for what scientific inquiry has yet to explain. Leftist thought tends to be opposed to what exists and demands rational investigation of the natural world.

...along with the whole "Opium of the People" rhetoric.

For the record:

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."
-Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

It annoys me when "the opium of the people" is all people get from that.

[Dundee Derry]

err. might want to review your use of the phase 'national' socialists there. The entire film/speech was anti National Socialism. Or did I seriously misinterpret the film?

Edit : Though I think I agree with what I think you are trying to say: Chaplin was basically a Socialist (though he didn't like using the term), and quoted the gospel of Luke in the passage at the end of the Great Dictator. Can't recall Chaplin's religion off hand. *googles*

It was mostly a joke.

Charlie Chaplin, if I'm not mistaken, was one of those people that kinda liked the idea of Fascism before Hitler decided to be a dick and declare war on everybody and all that.

OK. Cool. I'm quite tired so didn't pick up on the jokey tone in the original post. Like I say, not sure about the man's politics/ religious persuasion. But this is bit of a thread jack. So I'll get back on topic.

[Geilinor]

err. might want to review your use of the phase 'national' socialists there. The entire film/speech was anti National Socialism. Or did I seriously misinterpret the film?

Edit : Though I think I agree with what I think you are trying to say: Chaplin was basically a Socialist (though he didn't like using the term), and quoted the gospel of Luke in the passage at the end of the Great Dictator. Can't recall Chaplin's religion off hand. *googles*

It was mostly a joke.

Charlie Chaplin, if I'm not mistaken, was one of those people that kinda liked the idea of Fascism before Hitler decided to be a dick and declare war on everybody and all that.

I don't think Chaplin was ever a fascist.

[Neo Rome Republic]

What if a Communist is an open Christian?

There are plenty of Christian communists.

How does it contradict any leftist philosophies, exactly?

Well, there is the whole materialism part of dialectical materialism.

Beyond that religion is anti-science and conservative by its vary nature whereas leftist thought tends more towards rationalistic and progressive tendencies. The main roles of religion in any society are to a) justify what exits and b) provide 'explanations' for what scientific inquiry has yet to explain. Leftist thought tends to be opposed to what exists and demands rational investigation of the natural world.

...along with the whole "Opium of the People" rhetoric.

For the record:

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."
-Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

It annoys me when "the opium of the people" is all people get from that.

Well the Marxist-Leninists in the USSR did use it to spread an Anti-Religious message.
So don't get cranky at me when I use it that way, to try and prove a point.

[Conservative Idealism]

He's right.

Well, partially. Many of Christ's teachings bear ideological similarities to the works of philosophers who, in turn, inspired early communist writers and helped shape its doctrine. Is this a coincidence? Possibly. Does a similarity/correlation exist? Yes, indeed.

[Planeia]

They're technically not due to the Leviticus 18:22 clause, but if they want to retcon the criteria for their fictional heaven and hell, they could be my guest.

Of course they are. Many of the laws in Leviticus were targeted towards Jews specifically,

Does that mean I can kill, cheat on my ugly bitch of a wife, disrespect my parents, and hate my neighbor now? FUCKING FINALLY!

and sinning doesn't make you non-Christian.

If I recall correctly, continuing the sin does.

Anyway, 'tis for another thread.

[Sklavinia]

Jesus was a socialist

Jesus didn't believe in ideology.

Well to be honest theirs a heavy influence of Catholicism in Russia be it their take on it however it still is Christian.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fwayNilvk6I/UhKSNPKKgOI/AAAAAAAAARA/kFWNDTc5ECI/s1600/St-Basils-Cathedral-Red-Square-Moscow-Architecture-Dome-1050x1680.jpg
or did we think this was a candy land monument?

St. Basil's (the picture you just gave) is an Eastern Othodox Cathedral. Not the Kremlin. And not Roman Catholic). What was your point?

*edit: former cathedral

^This

They're technically not due to the Leviticus 18:22 clause, but if they want to retcon the criteria for their fictional heaven and hell, they could be my guest.

Of course they are. Many of the laws in Leviticus were targeted towards Jews specifically, and sinning doesn't make you non-Christian.

^This too.

2. 'Brainwashing'? Really? It's not 'brainwashing'. You can opt out if you want.

Can you really? Think about it. Imagine your self in an early 20th century society where religion is a far greater part of everyday life than it is for us today. Everyone goes to church. If you don't, you are a pariah. And everyone does what the church tells them. If you don't, you are a pariah. You can see how that gets annoying for someone who is already convinced the system is oppressing people.

And whats wrong with believing without proof?

Yea we are pretty much done here. If you have to ask this than you can not ever understand the point. As you pretty much just admitted to being against the fundamental principals of the scientific method.

Where exactly did you get the idea that not going to church every Sunday makes you a pariah? Maybe in a theocracy...

And no, we're not done here. Faith is all about believing without knowing. That's the point. It's a test to see if you can truly believe in something without having to know if it's real or not. Everyone has faith in something, everyone believes in something that cannot be proven. It's what we do. You can't truly believe in only things that have factual evidence, even intellectuals can have faith and belief without knowledge.

[Dundee Derry]

As a Communist I can safely say I am spiritual but not christian.

As a Christian I can safely say I am socialist but not communist.

BTW: Satire.

[Sklavinia]

Of course they are. Many of the laws in Leviticus were targeted towards Jews specifically,

Does that mean I can kill, cheat on my ugly bitch of a wife, disrespect my parents, and hate my neighbor now? FUCKING FINALLY!

and sinning doesn't make you non-Christian.

If I recall correctly, continuing the sin does.

Anyway, 'tis for another thread.

Where does it say continuing the sin makes you non-Christian? That's not how it works.

And no, you can't kill or cheat. Disrespect and hate? That's up for debate.

[Geilinor]

Of course they are. Many of the laws in Leviticus were targeted towards Jews specifically,

Does that mean I can kill, cheat on my ugly bitch of a wife, disrespect my parents, and hate my neighbor now? FUCKING FINALLY!

The 10 Commandments were referred to in the New Testament, so no. There's also the law which prevents you from murdering. Are you sure you understand your religion as well as you think you do?

[Purpelia]

Where exactly did you get the idea that not going to church every Sunday makes you a pariah? Maybe in a theocracy...

No, in a theocracy it gets you imprisoned and killed.

And no, we're not done here. Faith is all about believing without knowing. That's the point. It's a test to see if you can truly believe in something without having to know if it's real or not. Everyone has faith in something, everyone believes in something that cannot be proven. It's what we do. You can't truly believe in only things that have factual evidence, even intellectuals can have faith and belief without knowledge.

Yes you can and you must. For if we place belief into things that are unproven or worse yet unprovable than we are no better than the caveman drawing animals on the walls of our caves believing it will help in the hunt to come. Only through intellectualism and the constant quest to question everything can we advance as a culture, society and species.

[ALMF]

(Reuters) - Pope Francis, whose criticisms of unbridled capitalism have prompted some to label him a Marxist, said in an interview published on Sunday that communists had stolen the flag of Christianity.

The 77-year-old pontiff gave an interview to Il Messaggero, Rome's local newspaper, to mark the feast of Saints Peter and Paul, a Roman holiday.

He was asked about a blog post in the Economist magazine that said he sounded like a Leninist when he criticised capitalism and called for radical economic reform.

"I can only say that the communists have stolen our flag. The flag of the poor is Christian. Poverty is at the centre of the Gospel," he said, citing Biblical passages about the need to help the poor, the sick and the needy.

"Communists say that all this is communism. Sure, twenty centuries later. So when they speak, one can say to them: 'but then you are Christian'," he said, laughing.

Since his election in March 2013, Francis has often attacked the global economic system as being insensitive to the poor and not doing enough to share wealth with those who need it most.

Earlier this month, he criticised the wealth made from financial speculation as intolerable and said speculation on commodities was a scandal that compromised the poor's access to food.

yeah. thats tright. so do you think the communists have stolen the christian flag? is the pope a communist? i dont think the communists have stole cthe cirstian flag because karl marsx wasn an atheist. but i think rancis is a communist sympathizer (he's from argentina. that's in south america).

what do you think about this article? on reuters

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/06/2 ... KC20140629

His historical claim is correct. Marx was based on Christianity. It was trying to take the important step of rescuing the good ideas from the muck of superstition. There is plenty so object to in the Catholic church, and to a lesser extent this pope, but this ain't it.

[The Serbian Empire]

He's saying, in jest, that his previous comments on the poor that some denounced as 'Communist' were simply reiterating 2000 year old Christian teaching, and that the Communists came to the same rhetoric in defence of the poor much later. So no, Francis is not a Communist, nor is he a "Communist sympathiser" (whatever that is).

It's more likely that Communists used Christian arguments to get support.

[Sklavinia]

Where exactly did you get the idea that not going to church every Sunday makes you a pariah? Maybe in a theocracy...

No, in a theocracy it gets you imprisoned and killed.

And no, we're not done here. Faith is all about believing without knowing. That's the point. It's a test to see if you can truly believe in something without having to know if it's real or not. Everyone has faith in something, everyone believes in something that cannot be proven. It's what we do. You can't truly believe in only things that have factual evidence, even intellectuals can have faith and belief without knowledge.

Yes you can and you must. For if we place belief into things that are unproven or worse yet unprovable than we are no better than the caveman drawing animals on the walls of our caves believing it will help in the hunt to come. Only through intellectualism and the constant quest to question everything can we advance as a culture, society and species.

Oh, so believing in something without proof makes you an idiot? Is that it? Because then I'm pretty sure that makes most people idiots, including many intellectuals. Humanity cannot nor must not rely on proof for everything, if we did, the world would be incredibly and drastically different. And not in a good way.

[Estado Paulista]

So, capitalists are open homosexuals? I didn't know this about myself.

...what does this have to do with anything?

[4years]

1. His historical claim is correct. 2. Marx was based on Christianity. It was trying to take the important step of rescuing the good ideas from the muck of superstition. There is plenty so object to in the Catholic church, and to a lesser extent this pope, but this ain't it.

1. His historical claim incorrect taken as stated.

2. A) Marx based himself on Hegelian dialectical philosophy, Feuerbach's materialism, classical political-economy, and utopian socialism for more than on Christian social teachings (although he did seek to retrieve the best of Christian social teaching). B) Communism is far order than Marx.

[Estado Paulista]

He never said he was.

He never said he wasn't one either.

[Sklavinia]

So, capitalists are open homosexuals? I didn't know this about myself.

...what does this have to do with anything?

Planeia thinks you can't be a Christian and LGBT at the same time. Ridiculous, I know.

[Valkalan]

Christian and especially catholic doctrine promote selflessness, service for the less fortunate and mindless devotion known more commonly as faith. Communists advocate many of the same things and despite their calls against religion are quite similar in terms of social and economic policy. Of course both have historically used coercion to export their "goodness" to the world.

[Sklavinia]

He never said he was.

He never said he wasn't one either.

Fair enough.

But what's with the picture? That's not Francis.

[Estado Paulista]

But what's with the picture? That's not Francis.

Exactly.

[Neo Rome Republic]

No, in a theocracy it gets you imprisoned and killed.


Yes you can and you must. For if we place belief into things that are unproven or worse yet unprovable than we are no better than the caveman drawing animals on the walls of our caves believing it will help in the hunt to come. Only through intellectualism and the constant quest to question everything can we advance as a culture, society and species.

Oh, so believing in something without proof makes you an idiot? Is that it? Because then I'm pretty sure that makes most people idiots, including many intellectuals. Humanity cannot nor must not rely on proof for everything, if we did, the world would be incredibly and drastically different. And not in a good way.

So rather than reserving judgement on questions we have not yet answered, you rely on a book of primitive scribblings for the answers? Sees legit. Sarcasm

[New Acardia]

All that I have to say is I am glad that I left the Catholic church for the Orthodox Church .
Because Rome was heading left way before this pope came along.

[Weaponized EMP Monopolies]

Francis is cool.

I was never one for the papacy. but Francis is cool.

[Pandeeria]

Wow, I actually found Pope Francis quote admirable, until he said that. I still like Francis, but that was a silly statement.