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For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:27 am

Trollzilla wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
In the UK, my party (The labour party) uses gender quotas.

what purpose does it serve them?

I'd assume it's something to do with generally having few women in politics. Which is an issue for a variety of reasons, and the allegations of parliamentary sexual harassment probably doesn't help.
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PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:27 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:And that helps reaffirm your identity as two very special and unique snowflakes I'm sure. Just as my gender identity continues to help me negotiate social structures and existence. Luckily you cannot force compliance with your ideas of "freedom" and instead can only frustratedly assert that it must go away on the internet while everyone else goes on with their lives as usual.

:hug:

Fuck, there's a tear in my right eye.

I'm sure if gender was an arbitrary personal psychological construct, I wouldn't heavily empathize with what you feel.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Arglorand
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Posts: 12597
Founded: Jan 08, 2013
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Postby Arglorand » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:27 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I agree entirely.


And that helps reaffirm your identity as two very special and unique snowflakes I'm sure. Just as my gender identity continues to help me negotiate social structures and existence. Luckily you cannot force compliance with your ideas of "freedom" and instead can only frustratedly assert that it must go away on the internet while everyone else goes on with their lives as usual. Have fun~!

Did I mention that I have a shitton of respect for you locked away in my closet? Here, have it.
Kosovo is Morrowind. N'wah.
Impeach Dagoth Ur, legalise Daedra worship, the Empire is theft. Nerevarine 3E 427.

Pros: Dunmeri independence, abolition of the Empire, the Daedra, Morag Tong, House Redoran, Ashlander interests, abolitionism, Dissident Priests, canonisation of St. Jiub the Cliff Racer Slayer.
Cons: Imperials, the Empire, the False Tribunal, Dagoth Ur, House Hlaalu, Imperials, the Eight Divines, "Talos", "Nords", Imperial unionism, Imperials.

I am a: Social Democrat | Bright green | Republican | Intersectional feminist | Civic nationalist | Multiculturalist
(and i blatantly stole this from Old Tyrannia)

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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:28 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Aurora Novus wrote:It's the absurdity of gender that is the very reason why I reject transgender people's genders, as I do with all genders.

:roll:

People with a lack of gender and an absence of gender identity besides said lack generally suffer from gender dysphoria.

I'd know since I feel far more misgendered by being interpreted as man instead of neutral/agender.

How does your theory explain gender dysphoria? Gender isn't an option, it isn't an arbitrary assessment, it is part of the integrity and essence of the person you are. You would probably understand what I mean if suddenly you started to get your body slowly get the physical characteristics associated with the opposite set of binary people.

If it wasn't uncomfortable, suffocating and very real like that, people wouldn't be transgender, because nobody's cray-cray enough to choose such a thing!


It's real man / real womaning.
If people just shut the fuck up and stopped telling a person born male who identifies as a woman
"You're a male" and "That is what a female looks like."
If they just stopped doing that shit, then when/if the person identifies as a female, they wouldn't be so distraught by it.
I'm not saying they choose it. I'd explicitly deny that.
(Though in my opinion, someone can carefully DECONSTRUCT their gender identity to become genderless, it isn't really possible to choose a gender.)
I'd say they simply identify with another gender because of cultural and social factors. It's a symptom of granfalloons.

If I declare myself a fuzzylumpkin, and say you are a didgeradon, and we convince society to divide itself between those camps and start insisting that it isn't arbitrary bullshit, eventually, someone will start identifying as both. Or neither. Or cross the floor.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Aurora Novus
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Posts: 4067
Founded: Jan 25, 2013
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Postby Aurora Novus » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:28 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:People with a lack of gender and an absence of gender identity besides said lack generally suffer from gender dysphoria.

I'd know since I feel far more misgendered by being interpreted as man instead of neutral/agender.

How does your theory explain gender dysphoria? Gender isn't an option, it isn't an arbitrary assessment, it is part of the integrity and essence of the person you are. You would probably understand what I mean if suddenly you started to get your body slowly get the physical characteristics associated with the opposite set of binary people.

If it wasn't uncomfortable, suffocating and very real like that, people wouldn't be transgender, because nobody's cray-cray enough to choose such a thing!


Gender dysphoria is the product of a social environment where gender is pandered to as a real and relevant thing, obviously. That's not that hard to explain away. Remove the social environment where gender is reocgnized as a real thing, and gender dysphoria would cease to be a thing. People would no longer experience the sensation of being misclassified or that certain labels don't fit them, because there would be no such classifications to list them by.
Last edited by Aurora Novus on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:34 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:29 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I agree entirely.


And that helps reaffirm your identity as two very special and unique snowflakes I'm sure. Just as my gender identity continues to help me negotiate social structures and existence. Luckily you cannot force compliance with your ideas of "freedom" and instead can only frustratedly assert that it must go away on the internet while everyone else goes on with their lives as usual. Have fun~!


Heres the thing. I don't identify as genderlerss. I just am.
That's what you don't get. I don't think i'm a special snowflake or anything. I just think the rest of you are acting ridiculous. It isn't about me. It's about the rest of you.
It's like "Believing" in atheism.
No. That isn't what it's like.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45240
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:30 am

Arglorand wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
And that helps reaffirm your identity as two very special and unique snowflakes I'm sure. Just as my gender identity continues to help me negotiate social structures and existence. Luckily you cannot force compliance with your ideas of "freedom" and instead can only frustratedly assert that it must go away on the internet while everyone else goes on with their lives as usual. Have fun~!

Did I mention that I have a shitton of respect for you locked away in my closet? Here, have it.


I'm a bit skeptical of closets having spent most of my teens stuck alone in one apart from occasional moments where I'm sure I saw Tom Cruise.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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Aurora Novus
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Posts: 4067
Founded: Jan 25, 2013
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Postby Aurora Novus » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:30 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:And that helps reaffirm your identity as two very special and unique snowflakes I'm sure. Just as my gender identity continues to help me negotiate social structures and existence. Luckily you cannot force compliance with your ideas of "freedom" and instead can only frustratedly assert that it must go away on the internet while everyone else goes on with their lives as usual. Have fun~!


I see that you have no actual counter-argument.

It should be noted that false beliefs and meaningless concepts bring people solace all the time. Look at religion.
It does not make them any less of a false and meaningless concept however, and ultimately, society would be far better off without such conceptualizations and groupings.
Last edited by Aurora Novus on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:33 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:And that helps reaffirm your identity as two very special and unique snowflakes I'm sure. Just as my gender identity continues to help me negotiate social structures and existence. Luckily you cannot force compliance with your ideas of "freedom" and instead can only frustratedly assert that it must go away on the internet while everyone else goes on with their lives as usual.

:hug:

Fuck, there's a tear in my right eye.

I'm sure if gender was an arbitrary personal psychological construct, I wouldn't heavily empathize with what you feel.


Just like how if Jeebus wasn't real you wouldn't empathize with what people say when they declare they feel his touch.
People act delusional because they feel things all the time.
Oh you empathize with someone because they identify as X?
Did it occur to you that that feeling you share with that person should be shared with all persons and that you're just unnecessarily partitioning humanity?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Arglorand
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Posts: 12597
Founded: Jan 08, 2013
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Postby Arglorand » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:35 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote: :roll:

People with a lack of gender and an absence of gender identity besides said lack generally suffer from gender dysphoria.

I'd know since I feel far more misgendered by being interpreted as man instead of neutral/agender.

How does your theory explain gender dysphoria? Gender isn't an option, it isn't an arbitrary assessment, it is part of the integrity and essence of the person you are. You would probably understand what I mean if suddenly you started to get your body slowly get the physical characteristics associated with the opposite set of binary people.

If it wasn't uncomfortable, suffocating and very real like that, people wouldn't be transgender, because nobody's cray-cray enough to choose such a thing!


It's real man / real womaning.
If people just shut the fuck up and stopped telling a person born male who identifies as a woman
"You're a male" and "That is what a female looks like."
If they just stopped doing that shit, then when/if the person identifies as a female, they wouldn't be so distraught by it.
I'm not saying they choose it. I'd explicitly deny that.
(Though in my opinion, someone can carefully DECONSTRUCT their gender identity to become genderless, it isn't really possible to choose a gender.)
I'd say they simply identify with another gender because of cultural and social factors. It's a symptom of granfalloons.

If I declare myself a fuzzylumpkin, and say you are a didgeradon, and we convince society to divide itself between those camps and start insisting that it isn't arbitrary bullshit, eventually, someone will start identifying as both. Or neither. Or cross the floor.

And the problem is... where?

Why is it a fundamentally bad thing to declare yourself a fuzzylumpkin?

Let's take this to another sphere, that of ethnicity, which is not at all different from gender in this case. Fundamentally, there's no difference between me and a Russian. I'm an atheist. Lots of Russians are atheist. My native language is Lithuanian, but I'm sure there are Russians, especially in Lithuania, whose native language is also Lithuanian. I'm sure my blood type is the same as many Russians'. And I personally know Russians who enjoy high fantasy as much as me. So fundamentally, there's no physical difference between two different ethnicities.

But I am a Lithuanian. Not a Russian. And I would find it immensely offensive if someone called me Russian. And I know your rants about how "it's offensive" is not an argument, which are completely safe for you to post on the internet, because in real life people stop talking, storm off or downright punch you in the face when they hear something offensive coming from your lips. But I have this identity and it's mine and no matter how much anyone tries to abolish it I will have it because this arbitrary group is my group. It might be arbitrary, but it's mine.

And same goes for gender. My gender identity might be arbitrary, but it's fucking mine. And the only reason you don't understand this, forgive me for this implication, is because I think you just might not be able to empathise with me because you are agender and don't understand that some people can't be you.
Last edited by Arglorand on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kosovo is Morrowind. N'wah.
Impeach Dagoth Ur, legalise Daedra worship, the Empire is theft. Nerevarine 3E 427.

Pros: Dunmeri independence, abolition of the Empire, the Daedra, Morag Tong, House Redoran, Ashlander interests, abolitionism, Dissident Priests, canonisation of St. Jiub the Cliff Racer Slayer.
Cons: Imperials, the Empire, the False Tribunal, Dagoth Ur, House Hlaalu, Imperials, the Eight Divines, "Talos", "Nords", Imperial unionism, Imperials.

I am a: Social Democrat | Bright green | Republican | Intersectional feminist | Civic nationalist | Multiculturalist
(and i blatantly stole this from Old Tyrannia)

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Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45240
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:36 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
And that helps reaffirm your identity as two very special and unique snowflakes I'm sure. Just as my gender identity continues to help me negotiate social structures and existence. Luckily you cannot force compliance with your ideas of "freedom" and instead can only frustratedly assert that it must go away on the internet while everyone else goes on with their lives as usual. Have fun~!


Heres the thing. I don't identify as genderlerss. I just am.
That's what you don't get. I don't think i'm a special snowflake or anything. I just think the rest of you are acting ridiculous. It isn't about me. It's about the rest of you.
It's like "Believing" in atheism.
No. That isn't what it's like.


"Everyone apart from me is nuts - I'm the only one who can see clearly through the fog of sheeple and ideology". Let's be honest, without warning you find yourself falling from the sky sometimes on cold winters days, dontcha?

Advice offered honestly, the "special snowflake" thing in your sig really needs to go - why would you append to each of your posts something that subtracts credibility?
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:37 am

Arglorand wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It's real man / real womaning.
If people just shut the fuck up and stopped telling a person born male who identifies as a woman
"You're a male" and "That is what a female looks like."
If they just stopped doing that shit, then when/if the person identifies as a female, they wouldn't be so distraught by it.
I'm not saying they choose it. I'd explicitly deny that.
(Though in my opinion, someone can carefully DECONSTRUCT their gender identity to become genderless, it isn't really possible to choose a gender.)
I'd say they simply identify with another gender because of cultural and social factors. It's a symptom of granfalloons.

If I declare myself a fuzzylumpkin, and say you are a didgeradon, and we convince society to divide itself between those camps and start insisting that it isn't arbitrary bullshit, eventually, someone will start identifying as both. Or neither. Or cross the floor.

And the problem is... where?

Why is it a fundamentally bad thing to declare yourself a fuzzylumpkin?

Let's take this to another sphere, that of ethnicity, which is not at all different from gender in this case. Fundamentally, there's no difference between me and a Russian. I'm an atheist. Lots of Russians are atheist. My native language is Lithuanian, but I'm sure there are Russians, especially in Lithuania, whose native language is also Lithuanian. I'm sure my blood type is the same as many Russians'. And I personally know Russians who enjoy high fantasy as much as me. So fundamentally, there's no physical difference between two different ethnicities.

But I am a Lithuanian. Not a Russian. And I would find it immensely offensive if someone called me Russian. And I know your rants about how "it's offensive" is not an argument, which are completely safe for you to post on the internet, because in real life people stop talking, storm off or downright punch you in the face when they hear something offensive coming from your lips. But I have this identity and it's mine and no matter how much anyone tries to abolish it I will have it because this arbitrary group is my group. It might be arbitrary, but it's mine.

And same goes for gender. My gender identity might be arbitrary, but it's fucking mine. And the only reason you don't understand this, forgive me for this implication, is because I think you just might not be able to empathise with me because you are agender and don't understand that some people can't be you.


If your best argument is that it's only as arbitrary as Nationality, you wont convince someone who is a EUnificationist now will you.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:39 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Heres the thing. I don't identify as genderlerss. I just am.
That's what you don't get. I don't think i'm a special snowflake or anything. I just think the rest of you are acting ridiculous. It isn't about me. It's about the rest of you.
It's like "Believing" in atheism.
No. That isn't what it's like.


"Everyone apart from me is nuts - I'm the only one who can see clearly through the fog of sheeple and ideology". Let's be honest, without warning you find yourself falling from the sky sometimes on cold winters days, dontcha?

Advice offered honestly, the "special snowflake" thing in your sig really needs to go - why would you append to each of your posts something that subtracts credibility?


Can you show me where I act entitled or anything? No?
Then it doesn't apply to me. It does however apply to a lot of other people.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45240
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:39 am

Arglorand wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It's real man / real womaning.
If people just shut the fuck up and stopped telling a person born male who identifies as a woman
"You're a male" and "That is what a female looks like."
If they just stopped doing that shit, then when/if the person identifies as a female, they wouldn't be so distraught by it.
I'm not saying they choose it. I'd explicitly deny that.
(Though in my opinion, someone can carefully DECONSTRUCT their gender identity to become genderless, it isn't really possible to choose a gender.)
I'd say they simply identify with another gender because of cultural and social factors. It's a symptom of granfalloons.

If I declare myself a fuzzylumpkin, and say you are a didgeradon, and we convince society to divide itself between those camps and start insisting that it isn't arbitrary bullshit, eventually, someone will start identifying as both. Or neither. Or cross the floor.

And the problem is... where?

Why is it a fundamentally bad thing to declare yourself a fuzzylumpkin?

Let's take this to another sphere, that of ethnicity, which is not at all different from gender in this case. Fundamentally, there's no difference between me and a Russian. I'm an atheist. Lots of Russians are atheist. My native language is Lithuanian, but I'm sure there are Russians, especially in Lithuania, whose native language is also Lithuanian. I'm sure my blood type is the same as many Russians'. And I personally know Russians who enjoy high fantasy as much as me. So fundamentally, there's no physical difference between two different ethnicities.

But I am a Lithuanian. Not a Russian. And I would find it immensely offensive if someone called me Russian. And I know your rants about how "it's offensive" is not an argument, which are completely safe for you to post on the internet, because in real life people stop talking, storm off or downright punch you in the face when they hear something offensive coming from your lips. But I have this identity and it's mine and no matter how much anyone tries to abolish it I will have it because this arbitrary group is my group. It might be arbitrary, but it's mine.

And same goes for gender. My gender identity might be arbitrary, but it's fucking mine. And the only reason you don't understand this, forgive me for this implication, is because I think you just might not be able to empathise with me because you are agender and don't understand that some people can't be you.


Fuckin' nailed.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:40 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Arglorand wrote:And the problem is... where?

Why is it a fundamentally bad thing to declare yourself a fuzzylumpkin?

Let's take this to another sphere, that of ethnicity, which is not at all different from gender in this case. Fundamentally, there's no difference between me and a Russian. I'm an atheist. Lots of Russians are atheist. My native language is Lithuanian, but I'm sure there are Russians, especially in Lithuania, whose native language is also Lithuanian. I'm sure my blood type is the same as many Russians'. And I personally know Russians who enjoy high fantasy as much as me. So fundamentally, there's no physical difference between two different ethnicities.

But I am a Lithuanian. Not a Russian. And I would find it immensely offensive if someone called me Russian. And I know your rants about how "it's offensive" is not an argument, which are completely safe for you to post on the internet, because in real life people stop talking, storm off or downright punch you in the face when they hear something offensive coming from your lips. But I have this identity and it's mine and no matter how much anyone tries to abolish it I will have it because this arbitrary group is my group. It might be arbitrary, but it's mine.

And same goes for gender. My gender identity might be arbitrary, but it's fucking mine. And the only reason you don't understand this, forgive me for this implication, is because I think you just might not be able to empathise with me because you are agender and don't understand that some people can't be you.


Fuckin' nailed.


Oh I see. So it really is as stupid as nationality. Then I don't need to even pretend to take you seriously anymore.
"Fuckin' Nailed." indeed.

Partitionists one and all.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:40 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:If people just shut the fuck up and stopped telling a person born male who identifies as a woman
"You're a male" and "That is what a female looks like."
If they just stopped doing that shit, then when/if the person identifies as a female, they wouldn't be so distraught by it.

I don't feel the kind of dysphoria that motivates me to mutilate myself, but I still feel dysphoria, and I personally never really suffered transphobia in real life.

Sure, it was hard to understand myself. Sure, growing up felt like mutilating me by the insides on various occasions in various manners. Sure, nobody ever really had a bigger understand of trans* folk I have now to mention very basic things about it, or to research more before they speak up strengthening inaccurate academic pathologization of our reality and furthering confusion and doubts about yourself. Sure, the misogynistic and transmisogynistic values we are instilled while growing up repealed me from such curiosity, and when I was no longer idiotic because I came out the first time very naturally, I problematized our existence as a "serious social and inner unsatisfaction I shouldn't belittle by associating with what I feel".

But that alone wouldn't make some of the stuff I've been through and the way I am physically forms of aggression, as this whole necessity and issue came from the inside to start with. From the outside, mostly because 'boy' and 'man' are really different value judgments in terms of gender, just like 'girl' and 'woman'. I never felt out of my place being a boy, because boys can be various things that are prohibitive from men, and I was always half afraid, half curious of what impression I'd grow about myself when the time to call myself a 'man' would come, but now I just feel half 'this is a wrong assignment', half 'lol fuck this is disturbing and suffocating just as my body'.

But I was always very neutral and never understood the reasons for me to bother with arbitrary systems of behavior based on stuff like "sex" (I mean gender assigned at birth). I know my demigenderness comes from a very, very young age. And the fact that my gender fluidity also comes from such is its strongest indicator, because I was felt different toward girls and boys in a way that was similarly close and distant.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Dumb Ideologies
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Posts: 45240
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:43 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Fuckin' nailed.


Oh I see. So it really is as stupid as nationality. Then I don't need to even pretend to take you seriously anymore.
"Fuckin' Nailed." indeed.

Partitionists one and all.


:lol:

Ostro's secret identity exposed
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
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Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
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Aurora Novus
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Posts: 4067
Founded: Jan 25, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Aurora Novus » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:44 am

Arglorand wrote:And the problem is... where?

Why is it a fundamentally bad thing to declare yourself a fuzzylumpkin?


1. It's not based on anything relevant. It's an arbitrary label, the existence of which is solely to seperate and group up people, when there is no real reason to. This is fine, say, if you're doing so for fun. But as a method of social organization, it makes no sense. It's simply ridiculous and inane.

2. It can, consequently, be extremenly harmful, as it causes individuals to heavily stake their identities upon something which is, ultimately, absolutely meaningless. It causes unecessary divisions between groups, and leads to all sorts of conundrums (such as people freaking out and demanding people recognize these identities, despite the identities being intrinsically absurd). It leads to people who would, under other cirumstances, associate with one another and see one another as brethren, to instead view each one another as "others", part of the different groups.

When groupism is based upon something significant, that's one thing, and generally it's alright. When it's based upon nonsense gibberish though, it's bad.


And same goes for gender. My gender identity might be arbitrary, but it's fucking mine. And the only reason you don't understand this, forgive me for this implication, is because I think you just might not be able to empathise with me because you are agender and don't understand that some people can't be you.


There's no reason you can't remove your gender identity. It is, ultimately, just a label. And a meaningless label at that. And this is a principle example of the harm I was talking about. You've become so attatched to this label, you're identity is so ingrained in this false belief, this meaningless concept, that the very notion of no longer having it causes you deep distress.

That people are so addicted to a meaningless form of social division is insane.
Last edited by Aurora Novus on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:45 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Oh I see. So it really is as stupid as nationality. Then I don't need to even pretend to take you seriously anymore.
"Fuckin' Nailed." indeed.

Partitionists one and all.


:lol:

Ostro's secret identity exposed



Pretty funny. But it betrays the fact you don't actually understand my position. I'm not interested in people all identifying as the same type of ape.
I'm interested in people realizing that a human is a thing that uses an ape as a mobile platform in order to survive.
You are not your body.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:46 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote: :roll:

People with a lack of gender and an absence of gender identity besides said lack generally suffer from gender dysphoria.

I'd know since I feel far more misgendered by being interpreted as man instead of neutral/agender.

How does your theory explain gender dysphoria? Gender isn't an option, it isn't an arbitrary assessment, it is part of the integrity and essence of the person you are. You would probably understand what I mean if suddenly you started to get your body slowly get the physical characteristics associated with the opposite set of binary people.

If it wasn't uncomfortable, suffocating and very real like that, people wouldn't be transgender, because nobody's cray-cray enough to choose such a thing!


It's real man / real womaning.
If people just shut the fuck up and stopped telling a person born male who identifies as a woman
"You're a male" and "That is what a female looks like."
If they just stopped doing that shit, then when/if the person identifies as a female, they wouldn't be so distraught by it.
I'm not saying they choose it. I'd explicitly deny that.
(Though in my opinion, someone can carefully DECONSTRUCT their gender identity to become genderless, it isn't really possible to choose a gender.)
I'd say they simply identify with another gender because of cultural and social factors. It's a symptom of granfalloons.

If I declare myself a fuzzylumpkin, and say you are a didgeradon, and we convince society to divide itself between those camps and start insisting that it isn't arbitrary bullshit, eventually, someone will start identifying as both. Or neither. Or cross the floor.

Acceptance of the non-binary gender spectrum is supposed to end "real man/real womaning". We only have that because only the binary genders are widely accepted. I don't think the 2011 UK Census featured an "other" option for Gender (strictly, only for Sex, which was a binary choice).

I never became particularly aware of the difference between sex and gender.
Besides, how difficult to grasp are the terms "assigned male at birth" and "assigned female at birth"?
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:46 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Fuckin' nailed.

I don't really think they are on the agender spectrum.

They're more like cisgender people who don't understand how gender works because their natally assigned gender caused them and people around them apparently more trouble than nothing.

I see a lot of radfems do that. They totally erase transgender experiences as bullshit and misogynistic conspiracies. At the end of the day they're ridiculous.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
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Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Imperializt Russia
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Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:48 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Fuckin' nailed.

I don't really think they are on the agender spectrum.

They're more like cisgender people who don't understand how gender works because their natally assigned gender caused them and people around them apparently more trouble than nothing.

I see a lot of radfems do that. They totally erase transgender experiences as bullshit and misogynistic conspiracies. At the end of the day they're ridiculous.

Radfems cannot be legitimised.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:50 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Fuckin' nailed.

I don't really think they are on the agender spectrum.

They're more like cisgender people who don't understand how gender works because their natally assigned gender caused them and people around them apparently more trouble than nothing.

I see a lot of radfems do that. They totally erase transgender experiences as bullshit and misogynistic conspiracies. At the end of the day they're ridiculous.


So because of our politics you've decided we can't be telling the truth about our gender.
The only real transpersons are ones who agree with you, and yet you accuse the radfems of conspiracy theorizing?
Pretty funny. Sad, but funny.

For the record, I'm well aware of the trans experience. I know how much it can infuriate and distress someone to be constantly misgendered. I know what it's like to see people file off into seperate gender groups and then feel distraught that you can't join the one you identify with (or lack thereof. For me the distress comes from having to lie and just choose one, usually male to avoid complaints.)
Every time someone calls me he, or she for that matter, I have to bite my tongue and smile at them to prevent me shouting them down.
So when someone like you, who is supposedly on the same wavelength, decides I'm not really agendered because I despise gender identities, you are trying to tell me I must secretly be a male.
The same shit i've had to put up with people doing to me my entire life. Fuck off.
This entire shit about people of a certain politics having their gender identity or lack thereof questioned is extremely fucking bigotted frankly.
And for the record, I advocate a voluntary deconstruction or reorganization of society to produce agendered persons. I'm fine with people carrying on to be gendered if they want to be. I think they are choosing poorly, but it's their damn choice. To have you decide that because of that i'm secretly a male is infuriating.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45240
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:52 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:I don't really think they are on the agender spectrum.

They're more like cisgender people who don't understand how gender works because their natally assigned gender caused them and people around them apparently more trouble than nothing.

I see a lot of radfems do that. They totally erase transgender experiences as bullshit and misogynistic conspiracies. At the end of the day they're ridiculous.


So because of our politics you've decided we can't be telling the truth about our gender.
The only real transpersons are ones who agree with you, and yet you accuse the radfems of conspiracy theorizing?
Pretty funny. Sad, but funny.

For the record, I'm well aware of the trans experience. I know how much it can infuriate and distress someone to be constantly misgendered. I know what it's like to see people file off into seperate gender groups and then feel distraught that you can't join the one you identify with (or lack thereof. For me the distress comes from having to lie and just choose one, usually male to avoid complaints.)
Every time someone calls me he, or she for that matter, I have to bite my tongue and smile at them to prevent me shouting them down.
So when someone like you, who is supposedly on the same wavelength, decides I'm not really agendered because I despise gender identities, you are trying to tell me I must secretly be a male.
The same shit i've had to put up with people doing to me my entire life. Fuck off.


It isn't very nice when the legitimacy of your identity is questioned, is it?

Physician, heal thyself.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57850
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:55 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
So because of our politics you've decided we can't be telling the truth about our gender.
The only real transpersons are ones who agree with you, and yet you accuse the radfems of conspiracy theorizing?
Pretty funny. Sad, but funny.

For the record, I'm well aware of the trans experience. I know how much it can infuriate and distress someone to be constantly misgendered. I know what it's like to see people file off into seperate gender groups and then feel distraught that you can't join the one you identify with (or lack thereof. For me the distress comes from having to lie and just choose one, usually male to avoid complaints.)
Every time someone calls me he, or she for that matter, I have to bite my tongue and smile at them to prevent me shouting them down.
So when someone like you, who is supposedly on the same wavelength, decides I'm not really agendered because I despise gender identities, you are trying to tell me I must secretly be a male.
The same shit i've had to put up with people doing to me my entire life. Fuck off.


It isn't very nice when the legitimacy of your identity is questioned, is it?

Physician, heal thyself.


I never deny that people identify the way they do. Comparing my advocacy for voluntary restructuring of society and deconstruction of gender identity to just flat out denying peoples identities is misleading at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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