It's called rubberneckin', baby.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

[

Seriously? What the fuck? Yes, I have a tendency to sometimes stare at attractive people. Does that mean that in my head in thinking "I'm gonna get pussy tonight whether she likes it or not"? No!

What in the name of fuck is wrong with you?

I'm talking about a girl looking at a guy. As if she was for it. "There's no going back."

[Trollzilla]

Oh those poor women, irrationally being sexist and holding prejudicial attitudes. Those poor poor women, having to be told consistently that their attitudes are akin to racism and such. What victims, such horrific prejudice they have to face, because of their prejudice.
And again, it's not all women. A lot of them don't care about being oggled.

Because sexual harassment is totally not a gendered issue and because nobody thinks they are entitled to use others as masturbation toys in public transit, amirite? That's why Japan and Brazil don't have women's wagons in trains.

In the USA people don't use public transportation to rape people. However, I have heard that there have been a lot of cases of that happening in Latin America and in India for that matter. But in the USA we do not have that problem.

It certainly clears up your perspective.

[Viritica]

[

Seriously? What the fuck? Yes, I have a tendency to sometimes stare at attractive people. Does that mean that in my head in thinking "I'm gonna get pussy tonight whether she likes it or not"? No!

What in the name of fuck is wrong with you?

I'm talking about a girl looking at a guy. As if she was for it. "There's no going back."

Oh, well, fuck me. I'm tired.

Still think the "unequal comparison" was extremely hypocritical of you to say.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Err... if you were homosexual I think every guy would have an issue with you staring at our crotch intensely.

Why do you think this is different for women?

Perhaps I'm just over generalizing people and I'm most likely gonna get a lot of hate for this... But...

If you're a guy and girls stare at you then no problem. You feel alpha as fuck. If you're a girl and some guys start staring at you then you think they're perverts.

I mean, I feel alpha if women stare at me and checks me out, sure. I'm sure women also feel attractive if men look at them in appreciation and check them out.

However, there's also women (and homosexual men) who just fucking stare at you like they want to fuck you right in the corner of the building and you're not even turned on or anything; and I think that's something everyone can agree that's pretty uncomfortable or even downright annoying.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Because in any given situation, someone staring at you does not hold any more power over you than you do over them. You are fully within your rights to oppose them staring at you, and even if they don't stop, you are free to leave the situation. No one forces you to remain and be stared at.

There is also no reasonable expectation to not be stared at while out in public, as a general rule. Of course, specific public establishments are free to make whatever rules they please, but as a general rule, "public" is the place where people can see you indefinitely, for as long as they so desire, and so long as you desire to remain in public.

Let me see, you feel uncomfortable, objectified/sexualized, threatened by a potential criminal or somebody you got reasons to imagine would commit a crime against a person like you (decent people don't do that for various reasons), it is unilateral, and this is part of a pattern in society's cultural attitudes about what is the normal treatment of people of your gender-class when it comes to sexuality and sexual[ized] interaction.

It obviously is not rape, but it is sure as hell 1. a jerk thing 2. something oppressive.

I don't think it is a crime, but it is something deeper than some examples of microaggression like sexist jokes or condescending attitudes about your sexuality, at least to most people.

[Viritica]

Perhaps I'm just over generalizing people and I'm most likely gonna get a lot of hate for this... But...

If you're a guy and girls stare at you then no problem. You feel alpha as fuck. If you're a girl and some guys start staring at you then you think they're perverts.

I mean, I feel alpha if women stare at me and checks me out, sure. I'm sure women also feel attractive if men look at them in appreciation and check them out.

However, there's also women (and homosexual men) who just fucking stare at you like they want to fuck you right in the corner of the building and you're not even turned on or anything; and I think that's something everyone can agree that's pretty uncomfortable or even downright annoying.

Well, yes, I think we can all agree that that would make anyone feel uncomfortable.

[Trollzilla]

Well yes, I admit that deters my argument. I admit that staring is not the issue here and it does not do justice to my argument that there's certain types of stares that are pretty damn creepy (which is true).

So I do concede my example was a bad one here.

Heh, I think that this has been a common theme in this thread to diminish the issue by equating it with "just staring" or even "just looking" and it's hard to avoid falling for this sort of thing (I probably have at some point too).

See that is the thing. The sign in the picture was saying that staring by itself was a crime equal to rape. Some people, a lot of people, have been screamed at and humiliated for nothing more than a prolonged gaze. Most of them were people who never developed adequate social skills as a child.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Still think the "unequal comparison" was extremely hypocritical of you to say.

Do cisgender heterosexual men need to fear about violence in daily life interactions with people who don't belong to their "class"?!

[Viritica]

Still think the "unequal comparison" was extremely hypocritical of you to say.

Do cisgender heterosexual men need to fear about violence in daily life interactions with people who don't belong to their "class"?!

Kind of. They just expect it less. Don't pretend like female-on-male rape doesn't exist.

[Blazedtown]

Still think the "unequal comparison" was extremely hypocritical of you to say.

Do cisgender heterosexual men need to fear about violence in daily life interactions with people who don't belong to their "class"?!

Does anyone really need to live their live in fer like that?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Do cisgender heterosexual men need to fear about violence in daily life interactions with people who don't belong to their "class"?!

Kind of. They just expect it less. Don't pretend like female-on-male rape doesn't exist.

In normal situations? Well, one would think woman rapists of adult men are mostly situational rapists, not serial rapists who go and do it on complete strangers.

[Dakini]

However, there's also women (and homosexual men) who just fucking stare at you like they want to fuck you right in the corner of the building and you're not even turned on or anything; and I think that's something everyone can agree that's pretty uncomfortable or even downright annoying.

Well, yes, I think we can all agree that that would make anyone feel uncomfortable.

Okay, good. That's the sort of staring (or leering) we've been talking about.


Calling it "stare rape" is definitely a bit dramatic, but at no point were we talking about just checking people out or even just staring at them a little.

[Aurora Novus]

Because in any given situation, someone staring at you does not hold any more power over you than you do over them. You are fully within your rights to oppose them staring at you, and even if they don't stop, you are free to leave the situation. No one forces you to remain and be stared at.

There is also no reasonable expectation to not be stared at while out in public, as a general rule. Of course, specific public establishments are free to make whatever rules they please, but as a general rule, "public" is the place where people can see you indefinitely, for as long as they so desire, and so long as you desire to remain in public.

Let me see, you feel uncomfortable, objectified/sexualized, threatened by a potential criminal or somebody you got reasons to imagine would commit a crime against a person like you (decent people don't do that for various reasons), it is unilateral, and this is part of a pattern in society's cultural attitudes about what is the normal treatment of people of your gender-class when it comes to sexuality and sexual[ized] interaction.

It obviously is not rape, but it is sure as hell 1. a jerk thing 2. something oppressive.

That someone does something which makes you uncomfortable does not make it oppression. That someone does it only makes them a jerk if it unreasonable for them to do it. Someone staring at you with the intention of making you uncomfortable I would be comfortable in calling a jerk. Someone doing so for reasons other than this I am not so comfortable in labeling as such.

[Viritica]

Kind of. They just expect it less. Don't pretend like female-on-male rape doesn't exist.

In normal situations? Well, one would think woman rapists of adult men are mostly situational rapists, not serial rapists who go and do it on complete strangers.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Does anyone really need to live their live in fer like that?

Trans women without passability? Dunno about your area, but surely, here. People who are massively noticeable when it comes to other forms of gender dissidence, too.

I imagine it massively changes when your area got hate crime laws.

[Dakini]

Do cisgender heterosexual men need to fear about violence in daily life interactions with people who don't belong to their "class"?!

Does anyone really need to live their live in fer like that?

It depends. Some people definitely do and although I'm usually fine when walking home alone at night there are definitely times when I've ended up running the last few blocks to my building.

[Blazedtown]

Does anyone really need to live their live in fer like that?

It depends. Some people definitely do and although I'm usually fine when walking home alone at night there are definitely times when I've ended up running the last few blocks to my building.

And people wonder why my state has conceal carry. Not to thread jack. But if you really have to deal with that kind of fear in your life, a handgun might not be a bad idea.

Does anyone really need to live their live in fer like that?

Trans women without passability? Dunno about your area, but surely, here. People who have massively noticeable when it comes to other forms of gender dissidence, too.

I imagine it massively changes when your area got hate crime laws.

I honestly wouldn't know. I've never met one.

[Trollzilla]

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

My hyperbole meter went off-charts from this and crashed itself.

We never ever hear the word "creep" used to refer to women who stare. It is only used for guys who stare. That is what makes it a slur.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

In normal situations? Well, one would think woman rapists of adult men are mostly situational rapists, not serial rapists who go and do it on complete strangers.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

That's long. Where does it say femdom gangs round up random men in public and violate them?

[Trollzilla]

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

No. It really isn't, but you just keep playing that "white men are the biggest victims of all!" card.


edit: *looks at username* *looks at join date* *opens ignore list*

who said anything about white men in this thread????

[Dakini]

It depends. Some people definitely do and although I'm usually fine when walking home alone at night there are definitely times when I've ended up running the last few blocks to my building.

And people wonder why my state has conceal carry. Not to thread jack. But if you really have to deal with that kind of fear in your life, a handgun might not be a bad idea.

I'm not that paranoid.

...also, considering that guns are easily used against the people trying to operate them (at least much easier than say, a fist with keys sticking out of it is) it's not necessarily helpful.

[Aurora Novus]

You presentation is such that one concludes that you accuse women of holding that mindset, and, even if you didn't, it shows a profound disrespect to those that do suffer, which, irrational or not, is still very real.

Only a complete disregard for my words could lead you to the conclusion that I think women, as a gender, all think in this manner. I have spoken in the terms my opponents have spoken in. So...unless you believe my opponents are making the claim that all women think in this manner, there is no reason for you to think I think in this manner.

However, even if I did, my opposition to this mindset still could not be honestly construed as opposition to women as a gender.

As for it being "disrespectful", I do not respect irrationality. Whether or not the fear is real, it is irrational fear none the less. I do not respect irrationality. And why should I?

This is relevent...how exactly? You are making assumptions as to what I am going to say, and to my opinions, which cannot even be inferred from my own text, which is simply a criticism of the presentation of your argument, rather than addressing those arguments themselves.

There are those who would react in such a manner, as there is a history of people making such accusations. If you are not one such individual, very well, but you must recognize that this dilema exists.

I simply decided to discuss what was being discussed: Men staring at women, and certain women's responses to that. To bring men into the conversation would be to bring another dimension into the argument that was, at that point in time, not necessary.

Again, my argument isn't about your position, but your presentation of your position, which is quite clear from the actual text of my post...You go further than to simply say, "I believe that this mindset is irrational for this or that reason", you go out of your way to be dismissive, rude, condescending, and derisive. That is my point, you aren't out to create a clearly reasoned argument, which every point is expressed lucidly, you are out to antagonize your opponent, to get a rise out of them.

Please provide quotes where you think I have done so.

I also must point out that if you believe me to have behaved in this manner, there is absolutely no way you could not also believe Dakini has behaved in this manner. Far and above me she has done this. Why is it then I have not seen you criticising her, and attempting to claim that inferences of her hating men as a gender can be drawn from her presentation?

No, a debate is about showing that your position is superior to the opponents' position

Via exposing the flaws or their logic, yes.

you have to provide your own reasoning for your own position.

Which I have done, at several points in this thread.

[Trollzilla]

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

Because "creep" has been used to oppress men for centuries.

As for a woman being a creep, sure, there can be a female creep, if she spends her time in the garden watching a man shower from binoculars hiding behind a bush.

Ok. I'll take that. But tell me. How often have you heard men referred to as creeps and how often have you heard women referred to as creeps?

[Meryuma]

I've never been to Austin, but I heard it was one of the most liberal cities in Texas?

Actually they are a tad conservative than us up here in Dallas. Not by a lot, mind, but still a bit more conservative.

Dallas is more liberal overall though and with better education system than Austin (although with the quality of the education in Texas, that's not saying a lot).

I thought Austin was the hipster oasis that all the liberals fled to from elsewhere in Texas...

[Viritica]

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

That's long. Where does it say femdom gangs round up random men in public and violate them?

Holy fuck, just take off your feminist glasses and read it.