It's called rubberneckin', baby.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

What do you mean by "actually suffer from the maladies they are talking about"?

Whether or not you are a victim of structural, systemic discrimination that separates you as some whole new level of human being from other people for pretty arbitrary reasons.

This is not, despite your claims, an issue I am foreign to.

I'm sorry for my tone having essentialized sexual harassment and erased your own struggle, but please take note that this discussion is half-planted on the 'feminism' topic so we are maybe confused here.

Surely when this person approached you, you were oppressed, but do you think you can feel safe in most other situations? Do you think society and public places at large is a comparatively safe space for you to not suffer this kind of victimization?

I got to tell you something, the point of this discussion is about the women to which this is not a daily issue, but surely a commonly recurrent one, to which they face since they are very young. In a society full of objectifying of their bodies, sexualizing their common traits and giving a standard to about everything they do in life, this is just a further stone in their sole. And yes, it is a women-as-a-class issue to the most part. Denying it is - to me - essentially not caring.

1. I do, however, dismiss the question itself. 2. I also question what you mean by "people more powerful than them". I would not consider someone staring at me to be more powerful than me. That seems...rather absurd.

1. How? Through proving the people who say they historically perceive sexual harassment as gendered, who are a rather wide and diverse demographic, that they are liars?

2. See my second answer to one of your quotes. Tell me how the tighter experiences common to women in society does not bring us greater power through relative privilege.

[Dakini]

You assume that you're worth that kind of effort on my behalf. You're totally capable of looking at your own posts in this thread and you've made it pretty clear (in this thread and others) that talking to you is about as effective as talking to a wall.

I'm worth the time if you're interested in having an honest conversation with me, or about me.

If you're not, what reason do you have to continue to make these responses, and make these accusations? I'm left to take it as a form of flamebaiting/trolling.

It's definitely not worthwhile to quote basically everything you've said in this thread back at you especially since after it was pointed out to you that this how you come across by multiple posters, you have not demonstrated that you even want to understand what the problem is. I'm not sure why you would think this would be a good use of anyone's time.

[Viritica]

If you're attractive then of course I'm gonna do a double take. I'm sure women give attractive men that look too.

Seriously, what the fuck feminists?

[Aurora Novus]

And if you're not saying it isn't then it is condescending and patronizing to everyone who actually feels uncomfortable.

Yes. And? That is not the claim in despute here, as I have said several times.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But if I were to come in and say "Yeah, but men get treated that way too!", the claim would just be flipped around, and I would be accused of trying to detract from women, and thus, I also hate women.

If you have noticed, I have provided my insight as a guy in this thread multiple times about women treating me that way too. Not Dakini, not any woman that has perhaps seen this conversation hasn't come and said to me "YOU DON'T COUNT! YOU'RE A MAN! ETC ETC ETC!". My insight as a guy isn't the same, I can't possibly relate to women's experiences through my lenses, but I can describe what has happened to me and agree with them that yes, that sort of behavior is wrong in general period.

Well, not wrong, that's too strong. Rude and undesirable more like it.

[Dakini]

If you're attractive then of course I'm gonna do a double take. I'm sure women give attractive men that look too.

Seriously, what the fuck feminists?

The "double take" isn't the problem.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

If you're attractive then of course I'm gonna do a double take. I'm sure women give attractive men that look too.

Are you speaking of complete strangers? Well, women might have fear of being raped. Non-hetero guys and transgender people without female passability might have fear of suffering intolerant violence.

The last time I hit on guys I wasn't sure of their sexual orientation in public, I was bullied by many people, some of which I never met, for the rest of my days in the school I went to.

[Viritica]

If you're attractive then of course I'm gonna do a double take. I'm sure women give attractive men that look too.

Seriously, what the fuck feminists?

The "double take" isn't the problem.

Oh, I'm sorry, the staring part then. Oh yes, I'm gonna grope you with my eyeballs from a distance. Grow the fuck up, people.

[Viritica]

If you're attractive then of course I'm gonna do a double take. I'm sure women give attractive men that look too.

Are you speaking of complete strangers? Well, women might have fear of being raped. Non-hetero guys and transgender people without female passability might have fear of suffering intolerant violence.

The last time I hit on guys I wasn't sure of their sexual orientation in public, I was bullied by many people, some of which I never met, for the rest of my days in the school I went to.

Cuz every guy who stares is gonna rape you.

K.

[Dakini]

But if I were to come in and say "Yeah, but men get treated that way too!", the claim would just be flipped around, and I would be accused of trying to detract from women, and thus, I also hate women.

If you have noticed, I have provided my insight as a guy in this thread multiple times about women treating me that way too. Not Dakini, not any woman that has perhaps seen this conversation hasn't come and said to me "YOU DON'T COUNT! YOU'RE A MAN! ETC ETC ETC!". My insight as a guy isn't the same, I can't possibly relate to women's experiences through my lenses, but I can describe what has happened to me and agree with them that yes, that sort of behavior is wrong in general period.

Indeed. I definitely have no problem with the idea that different people will feel differently about being leered at or harassed; how a person feels is how they feel and no two people have the exact same experiences or frame of mind so how they react to the same situation can vary.

I do have a problem with people dismissing everyone else who feels differently as being irrational or whatever especially when they couple this with defense of the aggressor.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The "double take" isn't the problem.

Oh, I'm sorry, the staring part then. Oh yes, I'm gonna grope you with my eyeballs from a distance. Grow the fuck up, people.

Err... if you were homosexual I think every guy would have an issue with you staring at our crotch intensely.

Why do you think this is different for women?

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

I specifically stated that irrationality is not something which is unique to women. I've done so multiple times in this thread. That I am discussing women specifically is because my opponents have framed the discussion to be about men's behavior towards women.

You presentation is such that one concludes that you accuse women of holding that mindset, and, even if you didn't, it shows a profound disrespect to those that do suffer, which, irrational or not, is still very real.

So...if I frame my discussions around women, I hate women. But if I were to come in and say "Yeah, but men get treated that way too!", the claim would just be flipped around, and I would be accused of trying to detract from women, and thus, I also hate women.

This is relevent...how exactly? You are making assumptions as to what I am going to say, and to my opinions, which cannot even be inferred from my own text, which is simply a criticism of the presentation of your argument, rather than addressing those arguments themselves.

It would seem you've framed your argument such that, unless I agree with you on the issue, I hate women. That is a rather poor argument.

Again, my argument isn't about your position, but your presentation of your position, which is quite clear from the actual text of my post.

Calling a mindset irrational is not an attemot to "Get a rise" out of someone. It's to point out that the mindset is...irrational. Illogical. Flawed. Incorrect.

You go further than to simply say, "I believe that this mindset is irrational for this or that reason", you go out of your way to be dismissive, rude, condescending, and derisive. That is my point, you aren't out to create a clearly reasoned argument, which every point is expressed lucidly, you are out to antagonize your opponent, to get a rise out of them.

That is, after all, what debate is about. Exposing irrationality and flaws in logic.

No, a debate is about showing that your position is superior to the opponents' position, and convince others of the correctness of your position. While this involves showing in what way your opponent failed in their reasoning, it is not entirely about that, you have to provide your own reasoning for your own position.


Notice how, in the above discription, there is no mention of behaving churlishly towards your opponent.

[Norstal]

Stare rape.....what is your stance?

Before I you go on to say "its wrong for men to stare..." what about ads with half naked models of both sexes? Do we avert our eyes?

I highly doubt this woman is a feminist activist and if she is, I would like to know what kind of retarded organization she is working for.

[Trollzilla]

Dakini has never once said she does that.

What she did say is that she refers to these people as creeps in conversation with other people because, well, they're creeps.

Clearly, the feelings of creepy people are more important than the feelings of the people they creep on.

Especially if the creeps are male and the people being creeped on are female.

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

[Dakini]

The "double take" isn't the problem.

Oh, I'm sorry, the staring part then. Oh yes, I'm gonna grope you with my eyeballs from a distance. Grow the fuck up, people.

I can totally tell that you're here for a reasonable discussion that will be totally worth everyone's time.

[Viritica]

Oh, I'm sorry, the staring part then. Oh yes, I'm gonna grope you with my eyeballs from a distance. Grow the fuck up, people.

Err... if you were homosexual I think every guy would have an issue with you staring at our crotch intensely.

Why do you think this is different for women?

Perhaps I'm just over generalizing people and I'm most likely gonna get a lot of hate for this... But...

If you're a guy and girls stare at you then no problem. You feel alpha as fuck. If you're a girl and some guys start staring at you then you think they're perverts.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Cuz every guy who stares is gonna rape you.

K.

Say you look at somebody handsome just because they're handsome, but "are innocent" and/or "got your own time".

The possibility your lustful looks communicate to him he's entitled to sex with you IN SPITE of your thoughts about your reasons and intentions are rather huge. He's also almost certainly physically stronger or learned to be domineering across life.

So yes, this comparison is really unequal for us.

[Blazedtown]

Clearly, the feelings of creepy people are more important than the feelings of the people they creep on.

Especially if the creeps are male and the people being creeped on are female.

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

Its one thing to do a double take, but to just stare is a little excessive and does come off as a little creepery.

[Norstal]

Clearly, the feelings of creepy people are more important than the feelings of the people they creep on.

Especially if the creeps are male and the people being creeped on are female.

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

My hyperbole meter went off-charts from this and crashed itself.

[Dakini]

Clearly, the feelings of creepy people are more important than the feelings of the people they creep on.

Especially if the creeps are male and the people being creeped on are female.

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

No. It really isn't, but you just keep playing that "white men are the biggest victims of all!" card.


edit: *looks at username* *looks at join date* *opens ignore list*

[Viritica]

Cuz every guy who stares is gonna rape you.

K.

Say you look at somebody handsome just because they're handsome, but "are innocent" and/or "got your own time".

The possibility your lustful looks communicate to him he's entitled to sex with you IN SPITE of your thoughts about your reasons and intentions are rather huge. He's also almost certainly physically stronger or learned to be domineering across life.

So yes, this comparison is really unequal for us.

Seriously? What the fuck? Yes, I have a tendency to sometimes stare at attractive people. Does that mean that in my head in thinking "I'm gonna get pussy tonight whether she likes it or not"? No!

What in the name of fuck is wrong with you?

[Aurora Novus]

I'm sorry for my tone having essentialized sexual harassment and erased your own struggle, but please take note that this discussion is half-planted on the 'feminism' topic so we are maybe confused here.

Surely when this person approached you, you were oppressed, but do you think you can feel safe in most other situations? Do you think society and public places at large is a comparatively safe space for you to not suffer this kind of victimization?

I got to tell you something, the point of this discussion is about the women to which this is not a daily issue, but surely a commonly recurrent one, to which they face since they are very young. In a society full of objectifying of their bodies, sexualizing their common traits and giving a standard to about everything they do in life, this is just a further stone in their sole. And yes, it is a women-as-a-class issue to the most part. Denying it is - to me - essentially not caring.

The issue here is that I deny being stared at sexually is a form sexual harrassment, whether done to me, or anyone. That is the entire point upon which my argument rests.

As for my own experiences, I hesitate to call them sexual harrassment. Despite that I know many would call it such, I don't know that I would see it that way.

1. How? Through proving the people who say they historically perceive sexual harassment as gendered, who are a rather wide and diverse demographic, that they are liars?

This wasn't the question that I was referring to. Perhaps I misread your post. I dismiss the notion of sexual stares being dangerous, and consequently, I dismiss the notion that feeling so afraid and victimized by a stare that it is equivacable to rape.

2. See my second answer to one of your quotes. Tell me how the tighter experiences common to women in society does not bring us greater power through relative privilege.

Because in any given situation, someone staring at you does not hold any more power over you than you do over them. You are fully within your rights to oppose them staring at you, and even if they don't stop, you are free to leave the situation. No one forces you to remain and be stared at.

There is also no reasonable expectation to not be stared at while out in public, as a general rule. Of course, specific public establishments are free to make whatever rules they please, but as a general rule, "public" is the place where people can see you indefinitely, for as long as they so desire, and so long as you desire to remain in public.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Clearly, the feelings of creepy people are more important than the feelings of the people they creep on.

Especially if the creeps are male and the people being creeped on are female.

Except that word "creep" is never used in reference to women. It is a slur directed entirely at men. That is why a lot of people are offended by it. Calling a guy a creep just because he is standing there gazing at you is the same as referring to black person as a nigger.

Because "creep" has been used to oppress men for centuries.

As for a woman being a creep, sure, there can be a female creep, if she spends her time in the garden watching a man shower from binoculars hiding behind a bush.

[Aurora Novus]

I'm worth the time if you're interested in having an honest conversation with me, or about me.

If you're not, what reason do you have to continue to make these responses, and make these accusations? I'm left to take it as a form of flamebaiting/trolling.

It's definitely not worthwhile to quote basically everything you've said in this thread back at you especially since after it was pointed out to you that this how you come across by multiple posters, you have not demonstrated that you even want to understand what the problem is. I'm not sure why you would think this would be a good use of anyone's time.

Very well.