Is ''Hooters'' Degrading To Women?

[Constantinopolis]

See, I don't have a problem with sexualisation of humans in general, not just with women ...I don't consider degrading for a man to be buttered up wearing a tonga while poledancing for some girls that want to have their night out, it's his choice and I respect it.

Well, at least you support equality. That is good. I also support equality, but from the opposite angle: sexualization is always wrong, when done to men as well as when done to women. No one should be buttered up and poledancing for anyone.

Prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you.

No, prostitution is objectively degrading, because it promotes cultural attitudes of seeing women as existing for the pleasure and enjoyment of men.

Saying "prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you" is like saying "horror movies aren't scary, they're scary according to you." It's a ridiculous cop-out.

While it's certainly true that some people don't view horror movies as scary, and some people don't view prostitution as degrading, the fact remains that the purpose of horror movies is to scare you, and the purpose of prostitution is to treat women as sex objects.

I can understand your point, that materialiasing sex is pretty bad and destroys romance, love etc... but, you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, you can though support their worker rights.

First of all, society does have the right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, and plenty of different kinds of employment are illegal. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that certain types of employment should be illegal. The idea that "you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment", if you truly believe it without any exceptions, would make you an anarchist (and not even all anarchists would agree with such a principle).

Second, I do support workers' rights for prostitutes, actually. I just don't support consumer rights for their clients. I believe the "supply side" of prostitution (selling sex) should be legal, because we should not prosecute people for doing something that is usually the result of desperation, poverty, or abuse. However, the "demand side" of prostitution (buying sex) should be illegal as hell, and vigorously investigated and prosecuted. In other words, when a case of prostitution is uncovered, the prostitute herself should be free to go, but her client should go to prison for a long time.

Such a policy would hopefully result in the demand for prostitution dropping dramatically, so the activity of prostitution itself could be (almost) eradicated.

Gender roles will be eliminated through education, not by banning strip-clubs.

We need to do both. Banning strip-clubs helps. A lot.

Also, being opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults, I cannot support the banning of legal and regulated prostitution, stripping, porn, etc.

I don't think you're actually opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults. No one is. Not as an absolutist principle to be applied in all cases. I bet I could find you an example of consenting adults doing something that you think should be banned.

How about consensual cannibalism?

Sex is a private and intimate act. It should be kept private and intimate, not plastered all over the media, not exploited for profit, not blatantly alluded to in public spaces.

That's your opinion, mate.

And it's correct.

It is time for us to think about consciously regulating the kind of culture we live in.

And women should not be culturally pressured into looking or acting a certain way.

As Tony Blair once said the solution is simply; Education, education, education.

And legislation is part of education. People often use the law as a guide to morality.

You're not the one to judge what other adults do, unless their not psychologically in full health. If person A is aroused by person B and person A pays person B to blow person A, if person B is happy to do so, you have no say in the matter.

Yes I do.

Or, to be more exact, society has a say in the matter, and I can try to influence the opinion of society by making various arguments (and so can you, and in fact we are both doing it right now).

See, now we get to the philosophical heart of the matter. This is what I meant when I said that "I am vehemently opposed to liberalism in all its forms." The idea that we have no say in each other's behavior is a principle of liberal ideology, and it needs to die in a fire. Yes I do have a say in your behavior, and you have a say in my behavior.

Liberal ideology claims that if person A and person B are doing something among themselves without my involvement, then I have no say in the matter because their behavior does not affect me. This is a lie. We are not isolated individuals, living on separate islands with no contact. We are all part of society, part of an organic whole. Everything I do affects you to some degree, and everything you do affects me to some degree. Each person's private behavior contributes to creating social norms and the general cultural environment in which we live. We have every right to be concerned about social norms and about our culture, so we have every right to be concerned about the way that person A paying person B for a blowjob is affecting those norms and that culture.

Case in point: Over the last decade or two, the practice of completely shaving one's pubic hair has become common in Western culture. This new cultural trend was mostly caused by internet porn. So here we have just one small example of how porn shapes our culture (I mentioned it because it is well-known and uncontroversial). Do we have a right to be concerned about the other cultural and social effects that porn might have? Damn right we do. And we have a right to regulate it - or even, if it gets bad enough, outright ban it - if we decide that its negative effects on society are too great.

Degrading activities, such as prostitution (or, to a lesser extent, restaurants like Hooters) should be banned because of the effect they have on society and culture. They promote rampant sexism, the objectification of women, and (in the specific case of Hooters) the idea that sexual harassment is okay and no big deal.

[Wanderjar]

More than often, prostitutes are forced into their line of work.

How? Source?

Well look at the figures for human trafficking and you'll have your answer. Sure, some prostitutes aren't, but usually they're escorts. The kerb crawlers are overwhelmingly trafficked women and girls.

[Esternial]

Sometimes people should just let everyone decide what they find degrading themselves. If those women don't mind, I don't see a significant issue.
If you mind: don't work there, don't go there and go on with your life.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

First line of the first link. Either you're lying about clicking the links or you're lying about their contents. Either way you're totally full of shit and I'm done with you.

It's pointless. Whenever he is losing the arguments he will resort to his "philosophical framework", as he calls it, and he will stick that he's right and you're wrong because... well, because he says you're wrong in complete and flaunting disregard of academic sources.

[Grand Britannia]

Sometimes people should just let everyone decide what they find degrading themselves. If those women don't mind, I don't see a significant issue.
If you mind: don't work there, don't go there and go on with your life.

It's too hard to take this stance, apparently.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

See, now we get to the philosophical heart of the matter. This is what I meant when I said that "I am vehemently opposed to liberalism in all its forms." The idea that we have no say in each other's behavior is a principle of liberal ideology, and it needs to die in a fire. Yes I do have a say in your behavior, and you have a say in my behavior.

Case in point: Over the last decade or two, the practice of completely shaving one's pubic hair has become common in Western culture. This new cultural trend was mostly caused by internet porn. So here we have just one small example of how porn shapes our culture (I mentioned it because it is well-known and uncontroversial). Do we have a right to be concerned about the other cultural and social effects that porn might have? Damn right we do. And we have a right to regulate it - or even, if it gets bad enough, outright ban it - if we decide that its negative effects on society are too great.

No, you don't have any say in my behavior.

And I do trim and shave my body hair by the way. It's not because of porn, it's because I run, ride a bicycle and swim and it feels better to run and swim without having to worry about awful body odors or drag because of it. I do it mostly because it's a hygienic way to keep my body odor in check so you don't have to be offended by my body odor.

[Geilinor]

I'm unsure I've never actually been to one.

That reminds me, I had a question for everyone in this thread:

Is Hooters common where you guys live? Cos I've seen signs for them maybe a couple times in my life, and I don't think I've ever actually eaten there. If we had one on every corner like we have Dunkin Donuts, it might make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to be that common.

I've seen one around, which closed.

[Ostroeuropa]

See, I don't have a problem with sexualisation of humans in general, not just with women ...I don't consider degrading for a man to be buttered up wearing a tonga while poledancing for some girls that want to have their night out, it's his choice and I respect it.

Well, at least you support equality. That is good. I also support equality, but from the opposite angle: sexualization is always wrong, when done to men as well as when done to women. No one should be buttered up and poledancing for anyone.

Prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you.

No, prostitution is objectively degrading, because it promotes cultural attitudes of seeing women as existing for the pleasure and enjoyment of men.

Saying "prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you" is like saying "horror movies aren't scary, they're scary according to you." It's a ridiculous cop-out.

While it's certainly true that some people don't view horror movies as scary, and some people don't view prostitution as degrading, the fact remains that the purpose of horror movies is to scare you, and the purpose of prostitution is to treat women as sex objects.

I can understand your point, that materialiasing sex is pretty bad and destroys romance, love etc... but, you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, you can though support their worker rights.

First of all, society does have the right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, and plenty of different kinds of employment are illegal. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that certain types of employment should be illegal. The idea that "you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment", if you truly believe it without any exceptions, would make you an anarchist (and not even all anarchists would agree with such a principle).

Second, I do support workers' rights for prostitutes, actually. I just don't support consumer rights for their clients. I believe the "supply side" of prostitution (selling sex) should be legal, because we should not prosecute people for doing something that is usually the result of desperation, poverty, or abuse. However, the "demand side" of prostitution (buying sex) should be illegal as hell, and vigorously investigated and prosecuted. In other words, when a case of prostitution is uncovered, the prostitute herself should be free to go, but her client should go to prison for a long time.

Such a policy would hopefully result in the demand for prostitution dropping dramatically, so the activity of prostitution itself could be (almost) eradicated.

Gender roles will be eliminated through education, not by banning strip-clubs.

We need to do both. Banning strip-clubs helps. A lot.

Also, being opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults, I cannot support the banning of legal and regulated prostitution, stripping, porn, etc.

I don't think you're actually opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults. No one is. Not as an absolutist principle to be applied in all cases. I bet I could find you an example of consenting adults doing something that you think should be banned.

How about consensual cannibalism?

That's your opinion, mate.

And it's correct.

It is time for us to think about consciously regulating the kind of culture we live in.

As Tony Blair once said the solution is simply; Education, education, education.

And legislation is part of education. People often use the law as a guide to morality.

You're not the one to judge what other adults do, unless their not psychologically in full health. If person A is aroused by person B and person A pays person B to blow person A, if person B is happy to do so, you have no say in the matter.

Yes I do.

Or, to be more exact, society has a say in the matter, and I can try to influence the opinion of society by making various arguments (and so can you, and in fact we are both doing it right now).

See, now we get to the philosophical heart of the matter. This is what I meant when I said that "I am vehemently opposed to liberalism in all its forms." The idea that we have no say in each other's behavior is a principle of liberal ideology, and it needs to die in a fire. Yes I do have a say in your behavior, and you have a say in my behavior.

Liberal ideology claims that if person A and person B are doing something among themselves without my involvement, then I have no say in the matter because their behavior does not affect me. This is a lie. We are not isolated individuals, living on separate islands with no contact. We are all part of society, part of an organic whole. Everything I do affects you to some degree, and everything you do affects me to some degree. Each person's private behavior contributes to creating social norms and the general cultural environment in which we live. We have every right to be concerned about social norms and about our culture, so we have every right to be concerned about the way that person A paying person B for a blowjob is affecting those norms and that culture.

Case in point: Over the last decade or two, the practice of completely shaving one's pubic hair has become common in Western culture. This new cultural trend was mostly caused by internet porn. So here we have just one small example of how porn shapes our culture (I mentioned it because it is well-known and uncontroversial). Do we have a right to be concerned about the other cultural and social effects that porn might have? Damn right we do. And we have a right to regulate it - or even, if it gets bad enough, outright ban it - if we decide that its negative effects on society are too great.

Degrading activities, such as prostitution (or, to a lesser extent, restaurants like Hooters) should be banned because of the effect they have on society and culture. They promote rampant sexism, the objectification of women, and (in the specific case of Hooters) the idea that sexual harassment is okay and no big deal.

Laughable.
It doesn't make him an anarchist. If everyone involved consents, there is no problem. That means no being a hitman. But being a euthanizer? Go right ahead.
Professional rapist? No good. Professional prostitute? Feel free.
It isn't a cop-out to note that your personal misgivings aren't universal and shouldn't be treated as such.
So lemme get this straight. You want to criminalize using a prostitutes services, thereby ensuring that the people who a prostitute does business with will be criminal types anyway, and you frame this as protecting them despite the fact that sex workers keep telling people like you over and over that this is a ridiculously dangerous and stupid idea that forces them to rely on criminals for their income? Ok. Good luck with that.
Source that banning strip clubs will help. You think people will stop objectifying if you ban it as a business model? Fuck no, they'll be out doing it to people who don't necessarily want it instead. It'll make shit worse.
As for consensual cannibalism? Absolutely fine with it. Stop being so nosey. It's none of your business.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

That reminds me, I had a question for everyone in this thread:

Is Hooters common where you guys live? Cos I've seen signs for them maybe a couple times in my life, and I don't think I've ever actually eaten there. If we had one on every corner like we have Dunkin Donuts, it might make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to be that common.

I've seen one around, which closed.

I know only of one in Downtown Dallas, right across the Hard Rock Cafe in Downtown.

[Grand Britannia]

I'm unsure I've never actually been to one.

That reminds me, I had a question for everyone in this thread:

Is Hooters common where you guys live? Cos I've seen signs for them maybe a couple times in my life, and I don't think I've ever actually eaten there. If we had one on every corner like we have Dunkin Donuts, it might make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to be that common.

There's a Hooters about 2 hours from where I live but it isn't exactly a distance you'd want to travel just for food.

[Upper America]

I'm unsure I've never actually been to one.

That reminds me, I had a question for everyone in this thread:

Is Hooters common where you guys live? Cos I've seen signs for them maybe a couple times in my life, and I don't think I've ever actually eaten there. If we had one on every corner like we have Dunkin Donuts, it might make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to be that common.

There's one in my area. They had a billboard literally a block away from their location, but I don't know if their ad is still on it.

See, I don't have a problem with sexualisation of humans in general, not just with women ...I don't consider degrading for a man to be buttered up wearing a tonga while poledancing for some girls that want to have their night out, it's his choice and I respect it.

Well, at least you support equality. That is good. I also support equality, but from the opposite angle: sexualization is always wrong, when done to men as well as when done to women. No one should be buttered up and poledancing for anyone.

Prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you.

No, prostitution is objectively degrading, because it promotes cultural attitudes of seeing women as existing for the pleasure and enjoyment of men.

Saying "prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you" is like saying "horror movies aren't scary, they're scary according to you." It's a ridiculous cop-out.

While it's certainly true that some people don't view horror movies as scary, and some people don't view prostitution as degrading, the fact remains that the purpose of horror movies is to scare you, and the purpose of prostitution is to treat women as sex objects.

I can understand your point, that materialiasing sex is pretty bad and destroys romance, love etc... but, you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, you can though support their worker rights.

First of all, society does have the right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, and plenty of different kinds of employment are illegal. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that certain types of employment should be illegal. The idea that "you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment", if you truly believe it without any exceptions, would make you an anarchist (and not even all anarchists would agree with such a principle).

Second, I do support workers' rights for prostitutes, actually. I just don't support consumer rights for their clients. I believe the "supply side" of prostitution (selling sex) should be legal, because we should not prosecute people for doing something that is usually the result of desperation, poverty, or abuse. However, the "demand side" of prostitution (buying sex) should be illegal as hell, and vigorously investigated and prosecuted. In other words, when a case of prostitution is uncovered, the prostitute herself should be free to go, but her client should go to prison for a long time.

Such a policy would hopefully result in the demand for prostitution dropping dramatically, so the activity of prostitution itself could be (almost) eradicated.

Gender roles will be eliminated through education, not by banning strip-clubs.

We need to do both. Banning strip-clubs helps. A lot.

Also, being opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults, I cannot support the banning of legal and regulated prostitution, stripping, porn, etc.

I don't think you're actually opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults. No one is. Not as an absolutist principle to be applied in all cases. I bet I could find you an example of consenting adults doing something that you think should be banned.

How about consensual cannibalism?

That's your opinion, mate.

And it's correct.

It is time for us to think about consciously regulating the kind of culture we live in.

As Tony Blair once said the solution is simply; Education, education, education.

And legislation is part of education. People often use the law as a guide to morality.

You're not the one to judge what other adults do, unless their not psychologically in full health. If person A is aroused by person B and person A pays person B to blow person A, if person B is happy to do so, you have no say in the matter.

Yes I do.

Or, to be more exact, society has a say in the matter, and I can try to influence the opinion of society by making various arguments (and so can you, and in fact we are both doing it right now).

See, now we get to the philosophical heart of the matter. This is what I meant when I said that "I am vehemently opposed to liberalism in all its forms." The idea that we have no say in each other's behavior is a principle of liberal ideology, and it needs to die in a fire. Yes I do have a say in your behavior, and you have a say in my behavior.

Liberal ideology claims that if person A and person B are doing something among themselves without my involvement, then I have no say in the matter because their behavior does not affect me. This is a lie. We are not isolated individuals, living on separate islands with no contact. We are all part of society, part of an organic whole. Everything I do affects you to some degree, and everything you do affects me to some degree. Each person's private behavior contributes to creating social norms and the general cultural environment in which we live. We have every right to be concerned about social norms and about our culture, so we have every right to be concerned about the way that person A paying person B for a blowjob is affecting those norms and that culture.

Case in point: Over the last decade or two, the practice of completely shaving one's pubic hair has become common in Western culture. This new cultural trend was mostly caused by internet porn. So here we have just one small example of how porn shapes our culture (I mentioned it because it is well-known and uncontroversial). Do we have a right to be concerned about the other cultural and social effects that porn might have? Damn right we do. And we have a right to regulate it - or even, if it gets bad enough, outright ban it - if we decide that its negative effects on society are too great.

Degrading activities, such as prostitution (or, to a lesser extent, restaurants like Hooters) should be banned because of the effect they have on society and culture. They promote rampant sexism, the objectification of women, and (in the specific case of Hooters) the idea that sexual harassment is okay and no big deal.

From what I see here, controlling other people's behavior is ok, and so is censorship?

[Occupied Deutschland]

See, I don't have a problem with sexualisation of humans in general, not just with women ...I don't consider degrading for a man to be buttered up wearing a tonga while poledancing for some girls that want to have their night out, it's his choice and I respect it.

Well, at least you support equality. That is good. I also support equality, but from the opposite angle: sexualization is always wrong, when done to men as well as when done to women. No one should be buttered up and poledancing for anyone.

Prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you.

No, prostitution is objectively degrading, because it promotes cultural attitudes of seeing women as existing for the pleasure and enjoyment of men.

Saying "prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you" is like saying "horror movies aren't scary, they're scary according to you." It's a ridiculous cop-out.

While it's certainly true that some people don't view horror movies as scary, and some people don't view prostitution as degrading, the fact remains that the purpose of horror movies is to scare you, and the purpose of prostitution is to treat women as sex objects.

I can understand your point, that materialiasing sex is pretty bad and destroys romance, love etc... but, you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, you can though support their worker rights.

First of all, society does have the right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, and plenty of different kinds of employment are illegal. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that certain types of employment should be illegal. The idea that "you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment", if you truly believe it without any exceptions, would make you an anarchist (and not even all anarchists would agree with such a principle).

Second, I do support workers' rights for prostitutes, actually. I just don't support consumer rights for their clients. I believe the "supply side" of prostitution (selling sex) should be legal, because we should not prosecute people for doing something that is usually the result of desperation, poverty, or abuse. However, the "demand side" of prostitution (buying sex) should be illegal as hell, and vigorously investigated and prosecuted. In other words, when a case of prostitution is uncovered, the prostitute herself should be free to go, but her client should go to prison for a long time.

Such a policy would hopefully result in the demand for prostitution dropping dramatically, so the activity of prostitution itself could be (almost) eradicated.

Gender roles will be eliminated through education, not by banning strip-clubs.

We need to do both. Banning strip-clubs helps. A lot.

Also, being opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults, I cannot support the banning of legal and regulated prostitution, stripping, porn, etc.

I don't think you're actually opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults. No one is. Not as an absolutist principle to be applied in all cases. I bet I could find you an example of consenting adults doing something that you think should be banned.

How about consensual cannibalism?

That's your opinion, mate.

And it's correct.

It is time for us to think about consciously regulating the kind of culture we live in.

As Tony Blair once said the solution is simply; Education, education, education.

And legislation is part of education. People often use the law as a guide to morality.

You're not the one to judge what other adults do, unless their not psychologically in full health. If person A is aroused by person B and person A pays person B to blow person A, if person B is happy to do so, you have no say in the matter.

Yes I do.

Or, to be more exact, society has a say in the matter, and I can try to influence the opinion of society by making various arguments (and so can you, and in fact we are both doing it right now).

See, now we get to the philosophical heart of the matter. This is what I meant when I said that "I am vehemently opposed to liberalism in all its forms." The idea that we have no say in each other's behavior is a principle of liberal ideology, and it needs to die in a fire. Yes I do have a say in your behavior, and you have a say in my behavior.

Liberal ideology claims that if person A and person B are doing something among themselves without my involvement, then I have no say in the matter because their behavior does not affect me. This is a lie. We are not isolated individuals, living on separate islands with no contact. We are all part of society, part of an organic whole. Everything I do affects you to some degree, and everything you do affects me to some degree. Each person's private behavior contributes to creating social norms and the general cultural environment in which we live. We have every right to be concerned about social norms and about our culture, so we have every right to be concerned about the way that person A paying person B for a blowjob is affecting those norms and that culture.

Case in point: Over the last decade or two, the practice of completely shaving one's pubic hair has become common in Western culture. This new cultural trend was mostly caused by internet porn. So here we have just one small example of how porn shapes our culture (I mentioned it because it is well-known and uncontroversial). Do we have a right to be concerned about the other cultural and social effects that porn might have? Damn right we do. And we have a right to regulate it - or even, if it gets bad enough, outright ban it - if we decide that its negative effects on society are too great.

Degrading activities, such as prostitution (or, to a lesser extent, restaurants like Hooters) should be banned because of the effect they have on society and culture. They promote rampant sexism, the objectification of women, and (in the specific case of Hooters) the idea that sexual harassment is okay and no big deal.

I was going to go through this reply-by-reply and line-by-line to point out problems in viewpoint, rather humorous puritanical views on sexuality more at home with pilgrims than a Communist, and the rather major issues of consent as well as practical effects of some of the proposals made, but am too lazy.

I'll leave it at this: Sex is not degrading, your views are outdated religioun-deprived claptrap with no place being instituted in government, and I'd be more concerned about the cultural trend of regulating sexuality than that of giving blowjobs or cunnilingus for a fifty.

[Kiruri]

That reminds me, I had a question for everyone in this thread:

Is Hooters common where you guys live? Cos I've seen signs for them maybe a couple times in my life, and I don't think I've ever actually eaten there. If we had one on every corner like we have Dunkin Donuts, it might make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to be that common.

There's a Hooters about 2 hours from where I live but it isn't exactly a distance you'd want to travel just for food.

Nor would you travel that distance for the girls.. I'm pretty sure clubs and such are much more common than Hooters xP

[Grand Britannia]

There's a Hooters about 2 hours from where I live but it isn't exactly a distance you'd want to travel just for food.

Nor would you travel that distance for the girls.. I'm pretty sure clubs and such are much more common than Hooters xP

Nah, the collage campus is enough.

[Union Of Canadorian Socialists Republic]

You can say that for a number of other professions.

Such as...?

Military (conscription), peer pressure, parental involvement, etc...

[Upper America]

Such as...?

Military (conscription), peer pressure, parental involvement, etc...

Peer pressure and parental involvement are professions?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Such as...?

Military (conscription), peer pressure, parental involvement, etc...

Your definition of "profession" is a bit odd...

[Cannot think of a name]

Never been to Hooters but do the worked get sexually harassed often? Besides oogling I suppose, though I do consider that a form of harassment in most cases.

Considering that despite having to sign a contract stating that they will not sue after being sexually harassed, there are several successful and recent lawsuits to that effect? When you consider that the standard procedure is to pressure women who bring forth these lawsuits into arbitration so some of them don't end up at trial?

I haven't been following the thread closely, so maybe it was already provided, but in case someone asks-
the employee handbook

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Military (conscription), peer pressure, parental involvement, etc...

Peer pressure and parental involvement are professions?

Well, there must be professional peer pressure groups we don't know of.

You may pay a fee for people to pressure you to do things you don't want to do.

Sounds like a great business model, to be honest.

[Kiruri]

Nor would you travel that distance for the girls.. I'm pretty sure clubs and such are much more common than Hooters xP

Nah, the collage campus is enough.

Heheh, yeah! Totally

[Upper America]

Considering that despite having to sign a contract stating that they will not sue after being sexually harassed, there are several successful and recent lawsuits to that effect? When you consider that the standard procedure is to pressure women who bring forth these lawsuits into arbitration so some of them don't end up at trial?

I haven't been following the thread closely, so maybe it was already provided, but in case someone asks-
the employee handbook

That first comment...

But at least we have evidence of the acceptance of sexual harassment in Hooter's environment. Thanks!

[Union Of Canadorian Socialists Republic]

Military (conscription), peer pressure, parental involvement, etc...

Your definition of "profession" is a bit odd...

Not professions, but various factors that can lead an individual to unwillingly accept an occupation.

[Upper America]

Your definition of "profession" is a bit odd...

Not professions, but various factors that can lead an individual to unwillingly accept an occupation.

The original question that you replied to was asking for professions. So, it's best to bring up jobs instead of social behavior.

[Union Of Canadorian Socialists Republic]

Not professions, but various factors that can lead an individual to unwillingly accept an occupation.

The original question that you replied to was asking for professions. So, it's best to bring up jobs instead of social behavior.

Indeed. I apologize for the vague answer.

[Seriong]

See, I don't have a problem with sexualisation of humans in general, not just with women ...I don't consider degrading for a man to be buttered up wearing a tonga while poledancing for some girls that want to have their night out, it's his choice and I respect it.

Well, at least you support equality. That is good. I also support equality, but from the opposite angle: sexualization is always wrong, when done to men as well as when done to women. No one should be buttered up and poledancing for anyone.

Then you're for little reason against against people doing what they wish to do with their body. What happened to bodily autonomy?

Prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you.

No, prostitution is objectively degrading, because it promotes cultural attitudes of seeing women as existing for the pleasure and enjoyment of men.

Back that up, because that doesn't appear to be true.
Prostitution is illegal in most places in the US, and even where it's legal, it isn't seen as a very socially acceptable thing. How therefore, do you believe it has lead to that cultural attitude? Also, how do you justify the leap from people thinking prostitutes are employed to serve them sexually, to them believing that all women exist for their pleasure?

Saying "prostitution is not degrading, it's degrading according to you" is like saying "horror movies aren't scary, they're scary according to you." It's a ridiculous cop-out.

Yes, that's what he's saying, but it's not ridiculous. When someone says "Horror movies are scary" it's perfectly reasonable to respond "No, they scare you, that doesn't make them objectively scary"

While it's certainly true that some people don't view horror movies as scary, and some people don't view prostitution as degrading, the fact remains that the purpose of horror movies is to scare you, and the purpose of prostitution is to treat women as sex objects.

First of all, something having a goal doesn't mean that it achieves its goal. Second, that's not the purpose of prostitution.

I can understand your point, that materialiasing sex is pretty bad and destroys romance, love etc... but, you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, you can though support their worker rights.

First of all, society does have the right to say what other people shall choose as their employment, and plenty of different kinds of employment are illegal. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that certain types of employment should be illegal. The idea that "you have no right to say what other people shall choose as their employment", if you truly believe it without any exceptions, would make you an anarchist (and not even all anarchists would agree with such a principle).

It is however not the right of society to restrict employment that doesn't harm people.

Second, I do support workers' rights for prostitutes, actually. I just don't support consumer rights for their clients. I believe the "supply side" of prostitution (selling sex) should be legal, because we should not prosecute people for doing something that is usually the result of desperation, poverty, or abuse. However, the "demand side" of prostitution (buying sex) should be illegal as hell, and vigorously investigated and prosecuted. In other words, when a case of prostitution is uncovered, the prostitute herself should be free to go, but her client should go to prison for a long time.

First of all, sex workers have repeatedly taken umbrage with the position of people that they don't actually have any agency.
Second, if prostitution is causing this damage, why should the prostitute be free to go? We don't let people forced into selling drugs go free, because people believe that they damage society.

Such a policy would hopefully result in the demand for prostitution dropping dramatically, so the activity of prostitution itself could be (almost) eradicated.

No it wouldn't, as hiring a prostitute is already illegal.

Gender roles will be eliminated through education, not by banning strip-clubs.

We need to do both. Banning strip-clubs helps. A lot.

How? You have not yet justified the jump between people seeing a stripper, and then believing that all women are strippers. We don't see that happening with male strippers. The BDSM community is probably equally accepted as prostitution, and yet people don't believe it acceptable to tie up and beat your partner.

Also, being opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults, I cannot support the banning of legal and regulated prostitution, stripping, porn, etc.

I don't think you're actually opposed to banning the free will of consenting adults. No one is. Not as an absolutist principle to be applied in all cases. I bet I could find you an example of consenting adults doing something that you think should be banned.

How about consensual cannibalism?

Do you support suicide? It's the same thing. You have a body, you have the right to your body, so long as you aren't hurting other people in a manner they don't desire, do what you wish with it.

That's your opinion, mate.

And it's correct.

It is time for us to think about consciously regulating the kind of culture we live in.

No, it isn't.

As Tony Blair once said the solution is simply; Education, education, education.

And legislation is part of education. People often use the law as a guide to morality.

Legislation isn't education, nor a part of it. As well, legislation isn't a good guide to morality.

You're not the one to judge what other adults do, unless their not psychologically in full health. If person A is aroused by person B and person A pays person B to blow person A, if person B is happy to do so, you have no say in the matter.

Yes I do.

Or, to be more exact, society has a say in the matter, and I can try to influence the opinion of society by making various arguments (and so can you, and in fact we are both doing it right now).

No, you really don't. You have no right to try and force your sense of morality onto other people, just because you've imagined consequences that other people cannot see.

See, now we get to the philosophical heart of the matter. This is what I meant when I said that "I am vehemently opposed to liberalism in all its forms." The idea that we have no say in each other's behavior is a principle of liberal ideology, and it needs to die in a fire. Yes I do have a say in your behavior, and you have a say in my behavior.

Why should we restrict behavior that doesn't harm anyone?

Liberal ideology claims that if person A and person B are doing something among themselves without my involvement, then I have no say in the matter because their behavior does not affect me. This is a lie. We are not isolated individuals, living on separate islands with no contact. We are all part of society, part of an organic whole. Everything I do affects you to some degree, and everything you do affects me to some degree. Each person's private behavior contributes to creating social norms and the general cultural environment in which we live. We have every right to be concerned about social norms and about our culture, so we have every right to be concerned about the way that person A paying person B for a blowjob is affecting those norms and that culture.

Are you pro-choice? Because by your logic you should be pro-life. You are valuing a 'harm' you observe to be of greater importance than the bodily autonomy of that person. In an abortion, an entity is being harmed, legalizing it is 'making it socially acceptable' apparently.

Case in point: Over the last decade or two, the practice of completely shaving one's pubic hair has become common in Western culture. This new cultural trend was mostly caused by internet porn. So here we have just one small example of how porn shapes our culture (I mentioned it because it is well-known and uncontroversial). Do we have a right to be concerned about the other cultural and social effects that porn might have? Damn right we do. And we have a right to regulate it - or even, if it gets bad enough, outright ban it - if we decide that its negative effects on society are too great.

I'm going to need a source on people completely shaving their pubic hair en masse. Also on that having been caused by porn.
The only thing you put forth here is that it is reasonable to regulate something, or ban it, if it harms someone.

Degrading activities, such as prostitution (or, to a lesser extent, restaurants like Hooters) should be banned because of the effect they have on society and culture. They promote rampant sexism, the objectification of women, and (in the specific case of Hooters) the idea that sexual harassment is okay and no big deal.

And you haven't shown that any of those effects are real.