School shootings and gang violence

[Geilinor]

I think that the release of the numbers is fine. What I'm arguing against is the idea that due to the differing motivations, then somehow gun violence isn't as big of a problem as we think.

And you have no idea where I'm headed with this, as I'm not trying to lead you anywhere in particular.

It isn't as big a problem as it is made out to be by the anti-gunners. That is why they have to inflate the statistics to support their agenda, and to foster the lie of increasing gun violence.

The number of deaths is going to be the same no matter how you count them.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I somehow don't mind the idea of kids conforming to the mindset that one shouldn't bring drugs or guns to school.

Meh I can understand wanting to keep guns out of then hands of teens during school hours, but surely drugs ought to be allowed...at least to help get through the boring classes.

Sure, if they're subtle about it. I'm not that much of a hypocrite. If they're not caught, there's no crime.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

If you're simply expelling them, then they're out on the streets without any supervision. What secure facility do you have in mind?

EDIT: I should also note that this is largely what we already do.

Better out on the streets than in schools threatening innocent children.

And yet in schools, there are opportunities for intervention and to develop other interests while they're still developing. On the streets, it's jail or death.

[Llamalandia]

Meh I can understand wanting to keep guns out of then hands of teens during school hours, but surely drugs ought to be allowed...at least to help get through the boring classes.

Agreed.I'd get so blazed before school and I was easier going and nicer to my teachers...

I also agree that guns should never be allowed on campus....

I was referring to the anti freedom zone part of the original post...Some teachers can act like Hitler...

Never really had the need to myself plus I'm not really a fan of illicit drugs personally, not that I'm judging or anything though. Yeah, fortunately went to an awesome high school full of awesome teachers and largely awesome fellow students.

Heck I can even remember a couple incidents of kids bringing weapons to school in their trucks. Nobody really gave two shots about it though, I think basically they were just told to try not to do it again and told to take em home during lunch break.

[Master Shake]

I suggest we actually make use of them then or else make them more secure. Depends on where the gang related violence is occurring if its happening in regular schools, then that means we need to do a better job identifying and remove permanently gang members from said schools . If its happening in more secure juvenile facilities then clearly current security protocols need to be reevaluated and infrastructure may need to be up graded to better detect these weapons before they even get past a buildings outer gate.

They're quite secure. We rarely see firearm violence at them. And while we may be able to identify gang members, mere affiliation doesn't necessarily mean that the person is going to cause problems, meaning that if we remove them, we may be putting them in an environment where they're surrounded by nothing but gang members, and not given the opportunities to take another path that you'll find far more easily at a "normal" school than at one for troubled teens. How do you suggest that we approach this problem?

This,above,is actually a really good point.Not all kids in gangs stay there forever.Sometimes its just a phase and if we can give them the tools to build a better future they WILL leave their gang.By taking away any hope you are only condemning them to their gang life.

[Llamalandia]

Meh I can understand wanting to keep guns out of then hands of teens during school hours, but surely drugs ought to be allowed...at least to help get through the boring classes.

Sure, if they're subtle about it. I'm not that much of a hypocrite. If they're not caught, there's no crime.

So how do you feel about say a student concealed carrying? You know as long as they don't use the gun or get caught with it, it's all good right?

[Big Jim P]

It isn't as big a problem as it is made out to be by the anti-gunners. That is why they have to inflate the statistics to support their agenda, and to foster the lie of increasing gun violence.

The number of deaths is going to be the same no matter how you count them.

But not all deaths have the same value. Some are legitimate, others, while tragic are not the horrifying case of psychos trying to kill as many of our most vulnerable people as possible.

Schools are chosen for two reasons here: Gun-free zones means no defense to contend with and targeting children causes much more emotional damage.

[Big Jim P]

Better out on the streets than in schools threatening innocent children.

And yet in schools, there are opportunities for intervention and to develop other interests while they're still developing. On the streets, it's jail or death.

Still better than having them threaten innocent children.

[Llamalandia]

They're quite secure. We rarely see firearm violence at them. And while we may be able to identify gang members, mere affiliation doesn't necessarily mean that the person is going to cause problems, meaning that if we remove them, we may be putting them in an environment where they're surrounded by nothing but gang members, and not given the opportunities to take another path that you'll find far more easily at a "normal" school than at one for troubled teens. How do you suggest that we approach this problem?

This,above,is actually a really good point.Not all kids in gangs stay there forever.Sometimes its just a phase and if we can give them the tools to build a better future they WILL leave their gang.By taking away any hope you are only condemning them to their gang life.

Fine but lets make sure they are gang free. And the. Keep a better eye on them post reintegration. I mean lets face the recidivism rates aren't great even for adult gang members who are more resistant to peer pressure. Clearly we need to keep these kids isolated for their gangs a bit longer and give them more tools to stay out of the gang once they return to their local school.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Sure, if they're subtle about it. I'm not that much of a hypocrite. If they're not caught, there's no crime.

So how do you feel about say a student concealed carrying? You know as long as they don't use the gun or get caught with it, it's all good right?

False equivalence alarms going off. Let's move on, shall we?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

And yet in schools, there are opportunities for intervention and to develop other interests while they're still developing. On the streets, it's jail or death.

Still better than having them threaten innocent children.

You're acting as if a gang member in a high school is inevitably going to threaten innocent children, and has no hope of redemption or change.

[Llamalandia]

So how do you feel about say a student concealed carrying? You know as long as they don't use the gun or get caught with it, it's all good right?

False equivalence alarms going off. Let's move on, shall we?

Really? Yeah I admittedly can see it a bit myself. Still it's an amusing point if nothing else.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

This,above,is actually a really good point.Not all kids in gangs stay there forever.Sometimes its just a phase and if we can give them the tools to build a better future they WILL leave their gang.By taking away any hope you are only condemning them to their gang life.

Fine but lets make sure they are gang free. And the. Keep a better eye on them post reintegration. I mean lets face the recidivism rates aren't great even for adult gang members who are more resistant to peer pressure. Clearly we need to keep these kids isolated for their gangs a bit longer and give them more tools to stay out of the gang once they return to their local school.

Isolated from other gang members?

Exactly who else do you think they're attending these schools with?

[Llamalandia]

Still better than having them threaten innocent children.

You're acting as if a gang member in a high school is inevitably going to threaten innocent children, and has no hope of redemption or change.

No but surely there are incidents in which innocent bystanders are injured. I mean an unfortunate ricochet and all of sudden instead of big bad gang member tommy shooting big bad rival gang member Timmy, bam you got innocent Alice bleeding out in the hallway, because the bullet took a carem of a lock and hit her square in chest.

[Master Shake]

And yet in schools, there are opportunities for intervention and to develop other interests while they're still developing. On the streets, it's jail or death.

Still better than having them threaten innocent children.

Only the psycho lone gunman types are threatening the safety of the school.

the Majority of gangs fight their rivals.Sure some gangs may intimidate kids to feel big,but I don't think they are going around purposely beating and shooting random people....

[Big Jim P]

Still better than having them threaten innocent children.

You're acting as if a gang member in a high school is inevitably going to threaten innocent children, and has no hope of redemption or change.

As long as they are not threatening the innocent, I have no problem with it. However, I do believe that here, a one strike and you are out policy is prudent.

[The Grand World Order]

Children with single, adolescent parents, a lack of mature understanding of death and killing, and subsequent fascination with said unknown concept of killing combine into a social powder keg that is, now, exploding.

It's like how the Victorians were horny as fuck, yet put skirts on chair legs. And, not to sound like Jack Thompson, but the things we see in media today are exactly like "shoot no shoot" programs we use in the military and police... only there's no "no shoot." When you combine it with broken families, apathetic parents, a broken education system, growing rich-poor divides, you get violence.

On the other end of the scale, you've got a generation of well-off or even rich kids growing up basically being told they can't be wrong. They're exposed to the same media, yet sheltered from any sort of actual discussion about death and killing. You end up with a virgin watching excessive amounts of porn, metaphorically speaking. Then the world destroys the kid when he's older, crushing his image of himself as perfect... and then he takes that purely mechanical understanding of killing, and kills everyone who doesn't worship him.

In the end, I blame it on either parents who don't give a fuck, or who try to shelter their precious babies from the reality of the world they live in. They don't install the "safety catch," the sense of right and wrong, shoot or no shoot. They try to convince the child that violence doesn't exist, making it this taboo subject, when it most certainly does fucking exist.

[United Marxist Nations]

Still better than having them threaten innocent children.

You're acting as if a gang member in a high school is inevitably going to threaten innocent children, and has no hope of redemption or change.

One school in a city not too far from here actually got some help organizing stuff from one gang, so I guess they're not entirely bad.

[Big Jim P]

Still better than having them threaten innocent children.

Only the psycho lone gunman types are threatening the safety of the school.

the Majority of gangs fight their rivals.Sure some gangs may intimidate kids to feel big,but I don't think they are going around purposely beating and shooting random people....

See the post immediately above yours.

[Llamalandia]

Fine but lets make sure they are gang free. And the. Keep a better eye on them post reintegration. I mean lets face the recidivism rates aren't great even for adult gang members who are more resistant to peer pressure. Clearly we need to keep these kids isolated for their gangs a bit longer and give them more tools to stay out of the gang once they return to their local school.

Isolated from other gang members?

Exactly who else do you think they're attending these schools with?

Well possibly other gang members for one thing. Plus generally they are recruited by members in their own neighborhood are they not? By keeping them away from home that and isolated for that environment they are less likely to be influenced by their fellow gang members.

Ultimately as much as I hate to say it, it may even be necessary to provide them and their families with some sort of govt housing assistance so they can move out of gang territory, at least until they graduate high school.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You're acting as if a gang member in a high school is inevitably going to threaten innocent children, and has no hope of redemption or change.

No but surely there are incidents in which innocent bystanders are injured. I mean an unfortunate ricochet and all of sudden instead of big bad gang member tommy shooting big bad rival gang member Timmy, bam you got innocent Alice bleeding out in the hallway, because the bullet took a carem of a lock and hit her square in chest.

So how do we determine who the gang members are, then? Wearing the wrong shirt? Hanging out with a bad crowd? Backwards cap? Rap music?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Isolated from other gang members?

Exactly who else do you think they're attending these schools with?

Well possibly other gang members for one thing. Plus generally they are recruited by members in their own neighborhood are they not? By keeping them away from home that and isolated for that environment they are less likely to be influenced by their fellow gang members.

Ultimately as much as I hate to say it, it may even be necessary to provide them and their families with some sort of govt housing assistance so they can move out of gang territory, at least until they graduate high school.

At these other schools, they will gather with members of their own gang, or affiliated ones.

Who else will be living in these government assisted housing projects?

[Master Shake]

Single, adolescent parent children, a lack of mature understanding of death and killing, and subsequent fascination with said unknown concept of killing combine into a social powder keg that is, now, exploding.

It's like how the Victorians were horny as fuck, yet put skirts on chair legs. And, not to sound like Jack Thompson, but the things we see in media today are exactly like "shoot no shoot" programs we use in the military and police... only there's no "no shoot." When you combine it with broken families, apathetic parents, a broken education system, growing rich-poor divides, you get violence.

On the other end of the scale, you've got a generation of well-off or even rich kids growing up basically being told they can't be wrong. They're exposed to the same media, yet sheltered from any sort of actual discussion about death and killing. You end up with a virgin watching excessive amounts of porn, metaphorically speaking. Then the world destroys the kid when he's older, crushing his image of himself as perfect... and then he takes that purely mechanical understanding of killing, and kills everyone who doesn't worship him.

In the end, I blame it on either parents who don't give a fuck, or who try to shelter their precious babies from the reality of the world they live in. They don't install the "safety catch," the sense of right and wrong, shoot or no shoot. They try to convince the child that violence doesn't exist, making it this taboo subject, when it most certainly does fucking exist.

You said it better then I ever could.I think(in terms of the lone gunman) you hit the nail on the head....

Their self perception of the world doesn't match what reality is and then you have parents who shower that kid with undue praise about how great they are and then bam they hit high school and get a dose of the truth.Also you are right about how they are rich when they are kids,but as soon as they become adults they will be poor/worse off then any other generation before.There are little jobs out there which can support their hunger for wealth and luxury items that they "need" to look hip and cool....

So they snap and go off the deep end...

[The Serbian Empire]

It's not a real shooting if it's poor black people. Those only count 3/5ths.

It's a real shooting, but is it the same caliber as a spree shooting to just have one black gang member shoot another gang member and the injured gang member lives? It's not in my book.

[Geilinor]

It's not a real shooting if it's poor black people. Those only count 3/5ths.

It's a real shooting, but is it the same caliber as a spree shooting to just have one black gang member shoot another gang member and the injured gang member lives? It's not in my book.

A school shooting is just a shooting at a school, it doesn't have to involve multiple victims.