Is killing pigs for food the same as murdering children?

[Cupola]

How is 'as little pain as possible' suddenly not enough?

Thats only acceptable when there are no viable alternate food sources that do not experience pleasure or pain.

If meat-eating were forbidden worldwide, access to protein would become increasingly difficult where protein rich plants would be unobtainable.

[Herargon]

That depends. How tasty are children?

The answer depends on whether or not you like chicken.

I give them a 6 for the body, 2 for the carcasses and 100 for have been alive

[New Socialist South Africa]

So, can cannibals eat other people because they have the power to do so?

Physically they are capable. Didn't I already tell you the difference between eating something that is SAPIENT and something that is SENTIENT?

I don't believe so. Although if determinism is true and agent causation does not exist nothing is really sapient anyway.

[The Sotoan Union]

Physically they are capable. Didn't I already tell you the difference between eating something that is SAPIENT and something that is SENTIENT?

I don't believe so. Although if determinism is true and agent causation does not exist nothing is really sapient anyway.

Humans are sapient. That's kind of the definition.

[New Socialist South Africa]

I'm just pointing out the need for consistency.

I'm forwarding an argument. Anyone can oppose it and present counter arguments. I will then consider those and respond. Those who don not wish to read my posts do not have to. I am not taking away the rights of others. I do not have the power to anyway. On a separate note, while I know that is a joke, those don't feel pleasure or pain, so the matter does not apply.

Are you sure? They respond to a number of stimuli, just like other living things after all. They heal from damage as well, where possible.

And yes, I get that you are trying to be all grown-up and 'look at me I can haz debate too' with your clinical statement there. I was referring overall to the question of eating meat in general. And the rights of persons to choose whether or not they do so. It's also a valid position.

Yes well research is still being done in the matter and to see which are impacted. There would then also be the question of the level of pain and pleasure experienced.

Yes, at the moment it is very much a question of personal choice. Although that isn't necessarily a good thing.

[New Socialist South Africa]

I don't believe so. Although if determinism is true and agent causation does not exist nothing is really sapient anyway.

Humans are sapient. That's kind of the definition.

Having looked over the definition again perhaps sapient is correct. Although if determinism is true and agent causation does not exist none of our actions, thoughts or choices are actually free anyway. Although that is off topic.

[New Socialist South Africa]

Thats only acceptable when there are no viable alternate food sources that do not experience pleasure or pain.

If meat-eating were forbidden worldwide, access to protein would become increasingly difficult where protein rich plants would be unobtainable.

Not if you phased meat eating out and phased in the growing of plants containing protein.

[Conscentia]

Seems to be.

[Unitaristic Regions]

An important question here is: why is intelligence the deciding factor that allows or doesn't allow you to kill something for food? Why does it justify it?

[New Socialist South Africa]

Meh, I think the real question here is when can we start making bacon out of children?

Ok, but seriously, no it isn't equivalent, because the difference is that children have the potential for cognitive growth which pigs lack. I mean the mental age of a pig will always be at best about 3 yo in human terms. A 3 yo human on the other hand in nearly all cases will develop far beyond that.

If you are arguing that we can kill and eat pigs but we can't kill and eat three year olds because they have potential to become developed humans, does that mean that all abortion, protected sex and masturbation is illegal as well? Unborn babies and sperm are also capable of becoming developed humans. Or is there another condition that applies?

[New Socialist South Africa]

An important question here is: why is intelligence the deciding factor that allows or doesn't allow you to kill something for food? Why does it justify it?

[Harkback Union]

If meat-eating were forbidden worldwide, access to protein would become increasingly difficult where protein rich plants would be unobtainable.

Not if you phased meat eating out and phased in the growing of plants containing protein.

There is also fish.
Hypocrisy FTW

[Distruzio]

You just ruined bacon for me.

That's impossible. Bacon is as bacon does. Bacon is tasty. Bacon does tasty things. So bacon, remains useful to me.

[Llamalandia]

Meh, I think the real question here is when can we start making bacon out of children?

Ok, but seriously, no it isn't equivalent, because the difference is that children have the potential for cognitive growth which pigs lack. I mean the mental age of a pig will always be at best about 3 yo in human terms. A 3 yo human on the other hand in nearly all cases will develop far beyond that.

If you are arguing that we can kill and eat pigs but we can't kill and eat three year olds because they have potential to become developed humans, does that mean that all abortion, protected sex and masturbation is illegal as well? Unborn babies and sperm are also capable of becoming developed humans. Or is there another condition that applies?

I could answer this, but I believe a mod has already said not to let this become an abortion debate so I shall demur to that ruling for the time being and not go down the abortion debate threadjack path.

[Cupola]

If meat-eating were forbidden worldwide, access to protein would become increasingly difficult where protein rich plants would be unobtainable.

Not if you phased meat eating out and phased in the growing of plants containing protein.

Cool, but how is the meat-eating done by other omnivorous animals justifiable? Shouldn't we stop them eating meat as well?

[Distruzio]

Multiple studies have shown that pigs preform better on intelligence tests and cognitive evaluations than most 3 year old children, indicating that they are just as sentient as 3 year old children of our own species. Mother pigs in factory farms are known to cry and howl for days after they are separated from their children, pacing around their pens and attempting to find their lost children. what does NS think, is the meat industry genocide?

"Pigs have the cognitive ability to be quite sophisticated. Even more so than dogs and certainly three-year olds.” — Professor Donald Broom, Oxford University

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/opinion/thinking-about-pigs-before-theyre-food.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/science/10angier.html

Meh. It's a pig. It's edible. It isn't human. Therefore, eat it.

[Zottistan]

An important question here is: why is intelligence the deciding factor that allows or doesn't allow you to kill something for food? Why does it justify it?

Most people put subjective value on personhood even when independent of humanity, and consider intelligence an important part of personhood.

You just ruined bacon for me.

That's impossible. Bacon is as bacon does. Bacon is tasty. Bacon does tasty things. So bacon, remains useful to me.

The question remains, how tasty are children?

[New Socialist South Africa]

If you are arguing that we can kill and eat pigs but we can't kill and eat three year olds because they have potential to become developed humans, does that mean that all abortion, protected sex and masturbation is illegal as well? Unborn babies and sperm are also capable of becoming developed humans. Or is there another condition that applies?

I could answer this, but I believe a mod has already said not to let this become an abortion debate so I shall demur to that ruling for the time being and not go down the abortion debate threadjack path.

Or you could just TG your response.

[Distruzio]

An important question here is: why is intelligence the deciding factor that allows or doesn't allow you to kill something for food? Why does it justify it?

Most people put subjective value on personhood even when independent of humanity, and consider intelligence an important part of personhood.

That's impossible. Bacon is as bacon does. Bacon is tasty. Bacon does tasty things. So bacon, remains useful to me.

The question remains, how tasty are children?

I'm game if you are.

[Zottistan]

Most people put subjective value on personhood even when independent of humanity, and consider intelligence an important part of personhood.

The question remains, how tasty are children?

I'm game if you are.

This seems relevant.

[Harkback Union]

Most people put subjective value on personhood even when independent of humanity, and consider intelligence an important part of personhood.

The question remains, how tasty are children?

I'm game if you are.

Sign me up too.

[New Socialist South Africa]

Not if you phased meat eating out and phased in the growing of plants containing protein.

Cool, but how is the meat-eating done by other omnivorous animals justifiable? Shouldn't we stop them eating meat as well?

That would be very difficult, but in theory yes we should try do that.

Also it isn't so much meat eating itself, but the decrease of pleasure and increase of pain in the killing of the animal for its flesh. Eating animals that die of natural causes and eating any living thing that feels neither pleasure or pain is thus not a problem at all.

[Cupola]

Cool, but how is the meat-eating done by other omnivorous animals justifiable? Shouldn't we stop them eating meat as well?

That would be very difficult, but in theory yes we should try do that.

Also it isn't so much meat eating itself, but the decrease of pleasure and increase of pain in the killing of the animal for its flesh. Eating animals that die of natural causes and eating any living thing that feels neither pleasure or pain is thus not a problem at all.

One natural cause for a death of an animal is its predator killing it. We are predators and products of nature so our killing of pigs and other animals for sustenance is natural.

[MERIZoC]

That would be very difficult, but in theory yes we should try do that.

Also it isn't so much meat eating itself, but the decrease of pleasure and increase of pain in the killing of the animal for its flesh. Eating animals that die of natural causes and eating any living thing that feels neither pleasure or pain is thus not a problem at all.

One natural cause for a death of an animal is its predator killing it. We are predators and products of nature so our killing of pigs and other animals for sustenance is natural.

Is it now? We don't hunt pigs, so much as keep them in captivity their whole lives and then slaughter them.

[Unitaristic Regions]

Most people put subjective value on personhood even when independent of humanity, and consider intelligence an important part of personhood.

Sure, but the question was mostly raised at the OP, who seemed to imply that eating pigs had only now become a problem because of intelligence, not personhood...