Would you serve if drafted/conscripted?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

2) No, and that's why they do not get the benefits of citizenship either. I also never specified military service, I said that every citizen has a duty to defend their country in the manner thay are asked to. Not everyone would be put to military in the event of war.

As someone who wasn't a citizen (or believed he wasn't) I don't think most foreigners care about either voting or running for office.

Most are happy to have a better quality of life in and of itself.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If the war is just, we would see plenty of people sign up. Only for unpopular wars do we need the draft (WWI, Vietnam being examples).

World War II being another example.

World War 2 in the U.S. was more popular than Vietnam after Pearl Harbor. It certainly was our pinnacle of opportunity and we came out better off than most other countries.

[Scomagia]

I would undoubtedly refuse to serve if drafted. My reasoning is this, I refuse to serve a Government that bends itself to the whims of the Military Industrial Complex and corrupt politicians who profit heavily off the unending suffering of the poor and unfortunate. I cannot and will not subject myself to become a pawn who blindly follows orders while raiding nations for resources under the guise of "Freedom and Democracy". Also, I could never bring myself to a point so low where killing another living, breathing being is acceptable or encouraged.

Well said.

[Jetan]

2)They certainly pay for everything they're mean't to yes, or are you going to suggest that foriegners also must serve in the military?

1) That's what you get for trying to use enotions as a justification.
2) No, and that's why they do not get the benefits of citizenship either. I also never specified military service, I said that every citizen has a duty to defend their country in the manner thay are asked to. Not everyone would be put to military in the event of war.

Emotions kind of matter to non-sociopaths yes.[/quote]
Only fools let their emotions control them. You should be in control of your emotions, not the other way around. Rationality =/= sociopathy.

[Genivaria]

1) That's what you get for trying to use enotions as a justification.
2) No, and that's why they do not get the benefits of citizenship either. I also never specified military service, I said that every citizen has a duty to defend their country in the manner thay are asked to. Not everyone would be put to military in the event of war.

Emotions kind of matter to non-sociopaths yes.

Only fools let their emotions control them. You should be in control of your emotions, not the other way around. Rationality =/= sociopathy.[/quote]
And other then philisophical assertions how exactly is a draft 'rational'?

[Arukkan]

I would undoubtedly refuse to serve if drafted. My reasoning is this, I refuse to serve a Government that bends itself to the whims of the Military Industrial Complex and corrupt politicians who profit heavily off the unending suffering of the poor and unfortunate. I cannot and will not subject myself to become a pawn who blindly follows orders while raiding nations for resources under the guise of "Freedom and Democracy". Also, I could never bring myself to a point so low where killing another living, breathing being is acceptable or encouraged.

Well said.

Thank you very much. As you can probably tell, I'm a pacifist at heart.

[Jetan]

And other then philisophical assertions how exactly is a draft 'rational'?

Relatively simple and proven way to get enough mapower for the military. Also much cheaper than professional force of same strenght (if that strenght would even be achievable that way). Makes continued resistance or insurgency easier in the event of defeat due to more of the population having atleast rudimentary military training. Enough?

[Genivaria]

And other then philisophical assertions how exactly is a draft 'rational'?

Relatively simple and proven way to get enough mapower for the military. Also much cheaper than professional force of same strenght (if that strenght would even be achievable that way). Makes continued resistance or insurgency easier in the event of defeat due to more of the population having atleast rudimentary military training. Enough?

And of lower quality yes, in both fighing ability and morale.
And when was the last time a developed nation had to worry about insurgencys in their own country?

[Margno]

I'm really not understanding the internal logic of your position here.

Not simply because your told to, but if the defence of your country requires it. Also:

Because your country is what gives you all the basics you need to live and prosper like society and laws. It's not free.

So, it is everyone's duty to serve their country, because their country has given so much to them, and that definitely does include killing and dying for it. Gotcha so far.

Why should I kill someone for the crime of being born on a different patch of dirt then me? That's a barbaric sense of morality.

Har har. That someone is trying harm you, your friends and family, your home and country.

Wait, what? You are trying to harm him, his friends and family, his home and country. You just said that it was your duty to do that. And it's not like his country didn't give him the basics he needs to live and prosper, like society and laws. So he's doing his duty to resist you, by putting you, your friends, your family, your home, and your country in danger? By your logic, everyone is doing their duty only when they're burning each others villages down and mutually shooting each other in the head for being born in different places. When did it become a duty to turn life into an eternal living hell?

[Jetan]

Relatively simple and proven way to get enough mapower for the military. Also much cheaper than professional force of same strenght (if that strenght would even be achievable that way). Makes continued resistance or insurgency easier in the event of defeat due to more of the population having atleast rudimentary military training. Enough?

And of lower quality yes, in both fighing ability and morale.
And when was the last time a developed nation had to worry about insurgencys in their own country?

You misunderstood. The point was that it'll be easier to get an insurgency going against the enemy, should they manage to occupy you. And not all states can afford a professional army.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Only fools let their emotions control them. You should be in control of your emotions, not the other way around. Rationality =/= sociopathy.

See, emotions are important because we're not robots.

If rationality was the only thing guiding us then we'd be fucked.

[Jetan]

I'm really not understanding the internal logic of your position here.

Not simply because your told to, but if the defence of your country requires it. Also:

So, it is everyone's duty to serve their country, because their country has given so much to them, and that definitely does include killing and dying for it. Gotcha so far.

Har har. That someone is trying harm you, your friends and family, your home and country.

Wait, what? You are trying to harm him, his friends and family, his home and country. You just said that it was your duty to do that. And it's not like his country didn't give him the basics he needs to live and prosper, like society and laws. So he's doing his duty to resist you, by putting you, your friends, your family, your home, and your country in danger? By your logic, everyone is doing their duty only when they're burning each others villages down and mutually shooting each other in the head for being born in different places. When did it become a duty to turn life into an eternal living hell?

That's not how it works and you know it.

[Margno]

1) That's what you get for trying to use enotions as a justification.
2) No, and that's why they do not get the benefits of citizenship either. I also never specified military service, I said that every citizen has a duty to defend their country in the manner thay are asked to. Not everyone would be put to military in the event of war.

Emotions kind of matter to non-sociopaths yes.

Only fools let their emotions control them. You should be in control of your emotions, not the other way around. Rationality =/= sociopathy.[/quote]
He was making an appeal to ethics, not an appeal to emotion. Contrary to what the internet would like you to believe, amoralism = / = rationality.

[Margno]

I'm really not understanding the internal logic of your position here.

So, it is everyone's duty to serve their country, because their country has given so much to them, and that definitely does include killing and dying for it. Gotcha so far.

Wait, what? You are trying to harm him, his friends and family, his home and country. You just said that it was your duty to do that. And it's not like his country didn't give him the basics he needs to live and prosper, like society and laws. So he's doing his duty to resist you, by putting you, your friends, your family, your home, and your country in danger? By your logic, everyone is doing their duty only when they're burning each others villages down and mutually shooting each other in the head for being born in different places. When did it become a duty to turn life into an eternal living hell?

That's not how it works and you know it.

No, I really don't know it. If that's not what you mean you're gonna have to explain it to me.
How about this. Which of these postulates is not your argument?
1. It is the duty of everyone whose country has given him the basics he needs to live and prosper to serve his country.
2. Such service does extend to killing or endangering others, destroying their homes, and attempting to destroy their countries.
3. If someone else is attempting to kill or endanger one's self, one's friends, or one's family, or destroy one's home, or destroy one's country, the defense of one's country involves responding in kind.

[Jetan]

He was making an appeal to ethics, not an appeal to emotion. Contrary to what the internet would like you to believe, amoralism = / = rationality.

Using the words "comfortable with" seems to point to the other direction. There was no mention of ethics either. Regardless, accepting killing in certain cases/situations =/= amoralism.

That's not how it works and you know it.

No, I really don't know it. If that's not what you mean you're gonna have to explain it to me.
How about this. Which of these postulates is not your argument?
1. It is the duty of everyone whose country has given him the basics he needs to live and prosper to serve his country.
2. Such service does extend to killing or endangering others, destroying their homes, and attempting to destroy their countries.
3. If someone else is attempting to kill or endanger one's self, one's friends, or one's family, or destroy one's home, or destroy one's country, the defense of one's country involves responding in kind.

1 is true. 2 and 3 are partially true, partially incorrect. Everyone has a duty to defend their country, but that does not mean they get to disregard the rules of engagement and the like. Revenge strikes against civilians, etc. Is a definite no no. And the "duty to turn life into eternal living hell" argument is downright asinine.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Fuck no.

I need no loyalty to an institution that has no true loyalty to equality, decency and basic human rights.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Under two conditions:

1. Military service cannot overly interfere with my personal life

2. The war is Constitutional, and is a response to a homeland invasion from a government that would be worse than the current on.e

[Tuthina]

Under two conditions:

1. Military service cannot overly interfere with my personal life

2. The war is Constitutional, and is a response to a homeland invasion from a government that would be worse than the current on.e

I would say risking your life on a regular basis would interfere with your personal life a lot.

[Cadonica]

After a bit of brainstorming I changed my mind.

Yes, I would serve but only if my homeland was under attack. And I mean homeland, not fatherland.

I was born in Finland, therefore it's my "fatherland". However, I would only serve if I was living there at that moment. If I lived in USA or Argentina or South Africa, I sure as hell wouldn't go defend Finland. It wouldn't be my home anymore, I would serve my new country instead.

[Bereia]

I'm old enough that I do not fall within the usual scope of the Selective Service, but generally speaking I would agree to serve. I would likely have already volunteered before a draft had to be used.

[Mkuki]

Under two conditions:

1. Military service cannot overly interfere with my personal life

2. The war is Constitutional, and is a response to a homeland invasion from a government that would be worse than the current on.e

I would say risking your life on a regular basis would interfere with your personal life a lot.

Indeed. You can't blow off training drills just so you can go on a date.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I would say risking your life on a regular basis would interfere with your personal life a lot.

Indeed. You can't blow off training drills just so you can go on a date.

Unless your superior officer is suddenly looking very pretty.

[Ifreann]

I decided this in 1969. Some of my friends were fleeing to Canada. I decided, after careful consideration and discussion with my fiancee, that I would stay here and go to jail.

The local draft board, Selective Service, told me it would be impossible for me to claim Conscientious Objector status since I was a member of a mainline Protestant denomination.

I think my decision cost my father his (then pending) promotion to full pay retired status as a naval officer, and it broke his heart.

I believe this is the point where internet tough guys descend and call you a coward.

---

Even if your country happens to be invaded by a force hell-bent on exterminating you and your people?

I'd flee north.

To INDEPENDENT Scotland.

Into the arms of the force hell-bent on exterminating you and your people?

---

This question is kind of pointless - if you lived in a nation that practiced conscription, nobody would ask you whether you want to serve or not. You'd just have to - or you'd serve a prison time (or worse) instead.

So even ignoring the exemptions that would realistically be available and the possibility of fleeing the country, there is in fact still a choice.

---

In heartbeat. It is one's duty.

Maybe it's yours. It's not mine.

---

Why? What fundamental rule says that I have a duty to die and kill on the whims of a few old politicians?

Everyone has a duty to defend their country...

As per the above, speak for yourself.

---

Why should I kill someone for the crime of being born on a different patch of dirt then me? That's a barbaric sense of morality.

Why does everyone assume that conscripts are going to be used in combat roles?

Its' more likely that you'll be a truck driver or some other boring, safe logistics job.

Driving a truck is safe? What wars in the Middle East have you been watching?

---

Not simply because your told to, but if the defence of your country requires it. Also:

Har har. That someone is trying harm you, your friends and family, your home and country.


Taxes do not cover everything. And those "dead citizens" as you put it contribute to the continued existence of their country.


1. Taxes do not cover everything.
2. Only as long as you fulfil your duties.
3. Doesn't matter. Their politician have no power over their neighbours citizens.

You're very talented at posting without actually saying anything. Care to tell us what taxes allegedly don't pay for?

Presumably taxes don't pay for the services paid for out of money raised by the national debt and possibly the sale of government assets. Which is the same stuff taxes do pay for. And I can't imagine anyone arguing that one has a duty to fight for one's country because your country sold some bonds or an office block.

---

You're very talented at posting without actually saying anything. Care to tell us what taxes allegedly don't pay for?

Rights related to citizenship for one. For example, foreigners residing in the countried pay taxes but do not get to vote or run for office...

Neither of those things are universally true. As an EU citizen I can vote in European Parliament elections anywhere I might happen to reside in the EU. I believe, but I'm not sure, that as an Irish citizen I could vote in an English general election if I happened to live in England. As for foreigners running for office...

[Imperializt Russia]

Redundant, he may already be dead.

Then I would receive basic training, THEN shoot everyone I see in the base.
As you can see. Drafting ME is a BAD idea.

Why.

[Mkuki]

@Ifreann: Is that a real campaign poster?