Iraqi PM declares "State of Emergency" as ISIS occupy Mosul

[Purpelia]

Umm.... Wow. "I don't want to deal with the world's problems and these people won't make me."

Pretty much. A nation state should only care about the troubles of its own people. And screw the rest.

Firstly, you should, because if you ship them back they'll be in danger for their lives.

Not our problem.

Also, it's not that easy to just ship back a few million people. Ask the US Border Patrol.

Unlike america we do not share a huge land border over which people can cross back as soon as we throw them out. Just put them on a ship and send them back. Or just sink their ship as they try to come in the first place.

Fortunately, these things aren't up to you, so the EU's immigration agencies will decide.

Thankfully the Mediterranean will keep their low enough on its own. It's easier to run off across a land border to Iran or something than to find a seaworthy ship that can cross the med. Another example of natures sanity prevailing over human madness.

[Condunum]

Umm.... Wow. "I don't want to deal with the world's problems and these people won't make me."

Pretty much. A nation state should only care about the troubles of its own people. And screw the rest.

That could have worked two hundred years ago. We live in an international and connected world now.

Fortunately, these things aren't up to you, so the EU's immigration agencies will decide.

Thankfully the Mediterranean will keep their low enough on its own. It's easier to run off across a land border to Iran or something than to find a seaworthy ship that can cross the med. Another example of natures sanity prevailing over human madness.

Did we learn nothing from the mass Cuban exodus? If people want to leave, they will do it however they can, even if it means dying trying to get out.

[Purpelia]

That could have worked two hundred years ago. We live in an international and connected world now.

Just because the word is connected does not mean we have to waste money caring. A nation should pursue its economic and political interests and not try to waste time and resources on morality.

Did we learn nothing from the mass Cuban exodus? If people want to leave, they will do it however they can, even if it means dying trying to get out.

So let them die. Problem solved.

[Condunum]

That could have worked two hundred years ago. We live in an international and connected world now.

Just because the word is connected does not mean we have to waste money caring. A nation should pursue its economic and political interests and not try to waste time and resources on morality.

The stability of the middle east is an economic and political interest of most of the western world.

Did we learn nothing from the mass Cuban exodus? If people want to leave, they will do it however they can, even if it means dying trying to get out.

So let them die. Problem solved.

Yeah, I much prefer our solution. If they get to land, they stay. If they don't, pick them up and send them back. It's much less... idiotic.

[Senkaku]

Umm.... Wow. "I don't want to deal with the world's problems and these people won't make me."

Pretty much. A nation state should only care about the troubles of its own people. And screw the rest.

And this is why humanity will eventually go extinct.
It'd be great if that really worked, but unfortunately, it doesn't. My country tried it once. Didn't go so great.

Firstly, you should, because if you ship them back they'll be in danger for their lives.

Not our problem.

It's lovely to know that you really have compassion for your fellow man. Why, exactly, is their slaughter acceptable? Based on the logic you provided at the top of this post, it seems like any sort of genocide, invasion, murder, or even use of WMDs would be acceptable, so long as it happens outside your country's borders and you can condemn to death "ship back" everyone who arrives.

Also, it's not that easy to just ship back a few million people. Ask the US Border Patrol.

Unlike america we do not share a huge land border over which people can cross back as soon as we throw them out. Just put them on a ship and send them back. Or just sink their ship as they try to come in the first place.

Yeah. That's worked great for Italy, and Florida has had sooooo much success in stopping the Cubans that way.

Fortunately, these things aren't up to you, so the EU's immigration agencies will decide.

Thankfully the Mediterranean will keep their low enough on its own. It's easier to run off across a land border to Iran or something than to find a seaworthy ship that can cross the med. Another example of natures sanity prevailing over human madness.

You might be surprised.
Also, how is it madness to flee to Europe? It's wealthy, industrialized, and democratic, and the nearest area that is those three things. It seems like you're just calling it madness because you don't want to see the icky brown poor people outside.



I don't know where you live. I'm going to assume it's Europe, since you said "we" don't share a land border.
So let's say that, a purely hypothetical situation, Mexico and Brazil both begin manufacturing chemical weapons and begin competing for influence in the Caribbean. War breaks out, regional alliances form. Millions of people are killed or maimed, millions more flee, and... Let's say Caracas and Bógota, are hit by chemical weapons and thousands of innocent people murdered in cold blood.

By your argument that a nation should only care about its own people and "screw the rest", Europe should do nothing but deport or kill any desperate refugees from South America in such a situation. Is this correct?

[Grand Britannia]

They can swim to Europe?

[Purpelia]

And this is why humanity will eventually go extinct.

All species go extinct. it's nothing to be scared off.

It'd be great if that really worked, but unfortunately, it doesn't. My country tried it once. Didn't go so great.

It does not work only if the world tries to not make it work. If all the nations of the world were to unite under the banner of "don't give a fuck" people would get the message.

It's lovely to know that you really have compassion for your fellow man.

I feel bad for them. I just don't think we should do anything to help them. There is a difference between being indifferent and being practical.

Why, exactly, is their slaughter acceptable? Based on the logic you provided at the top of this post, it seems like any sort of genocide, invasion, murder, or even use of WMDs would be acceptable, so long as it happens outside your country's borders and you can condemn to death "ship back" everyone who arrives.

I am a big fan of the belief that what nations do within their own borders should be considered internal affairs. And that internal affairs should only be the concern of that nation and no one else. Since this is clearly a regional conflict it should thus be contained within said region and the only concern of the world at large should be ensuring it does not spill out.

Overall, it's a shame people have to die. But life ain't fair.

Yeah. That's worked great for Italy, and Florida has had sooooo much success in stopping the Cubans that way.

Italy won't throw people back the way I say. And neither will Florida. I'd just charter the first container ship I can find and send them all back. And if the place they came from wants to shoot them I'd kindly ask they keep the blood off our deck or pay for the cleaning bill.

You might be surprised.
Also, how is it madness to flee to Europe? It's wealthy, industrialized, and democratic, and the nearest area that is those three things. It seems like you're just calling it madness because you don't want to see the icky brown poor people outside.

I have no problem with brown, black, yellow or white people to be honest. I don't discriminate based on origin, race, gender or anything. I just don't like the idea of allowing a swarm of people to come to our countries in search of a livelihood in the middle of a recession. Come back in a year or two when the economy is on the rise and we need cheap labor again.

I don't know where you live. I'm going to assume it's Europe, since you said "we" don't share a land border.

In Europe yes.

So let's say that, a purely hypothetical situation, Mexico and Brazil both begin manufacturing chemical weapons and begin competing for influence in the Caribbean. War breaks out, regional alliances form. Millions of people are killed or maimed, millions more flee, and... Let's say Caracas and Bógota, are hit by chemical weapons and thousands of innocent people murdered in cold blood.

By your argument that a nation should only care about its own people and "screw the rest", Europe should do nothing but deport or kill any desperate refugees from South America in such a situation. Is this correct?

Europe should do what ever is economically the most cost effective thing to do. If it's that time of the century when we need cheap labor than accept the lot. If it's that time of the century we need cheap resources than invest in what ever regime of the two is more willing to export regardless of how much bullets and gas they want to import in return. If it's that time of the century that we have a recession going sink all the refugee ships so they don't steal our jobs. You know, follow the economic interests and not the emotional ones.


Sure I know this is deeply evil. And I would not enjoy doing it. But you know what, life isn't fair. And governments should be lead by cold logic and merciless calculation. They exist to make these choices so we don't have to. To do evil in our names so that we may feel blameless.
I am a fan of the type of cold war politics where both sides openly supported murderous regimes of evil because said regimes made decent promises in return. This whole switch to morality over practicality is illogical.

But to each his own.

[Master Shake]

They can swim to Europe?

Getting to Turkey isn't to hard(from Iraq) and then swimming to Greece wouldn't be that tricky either(or they could walk across a bridge in Istanbul)...

It'd probably be easier then the immigrants who start in Columbia and end up in Texas or California...

[Geilinor]

They can swim to Europe?

Once they go through Turkey into Greece, they're in the Schengen Area and can get to most of Europe.

[Estado Paulista]

They can swim to Europe?

Getting to Turkey isn't to hard(from Iraq) and then swimming to Greece wouldn't be that tricky either(or they could walk across a bridge in Istanbul)...

It'd probably be easier then the immigrants who start in Columbia and end up in Texas or California...

Crossing the Turkey-Iraq border is most definitely not as easy as you make it sound.

[Senkaku]

And this is why humanity will eventually go extinct.

All species go extinct. it's nothing to be scared off.

....Well then.

It'd be great if that really worked, but unfortunately, it doesn't. My country tried it once. Didn't go so great.

It does not work only if the world tries to not make it work. If all the nations of the world were to unite under the banner of "don't give a fuck" people would get the message.

No, because there would be a few people (like... I don't know, Hitler?) who would take advantage of this sudden isolationism to build up their own countries empires' and intimidate their weaker neighbors and pick them off, one by one. What you propose would be a bonanza for imperialists.

It's lovely to know that you really have compassion for your fellow man.

I feel bad for them. I just don't think we should do anything to help them. There is a difference between being indifferent and being practical.

You feel bad... But not so bad you think anything needs to be done.
That's pretty indifferent, my friend.

Why, exactly, is their slaughter acceptable? Based on the logic you provided at the top of this post, it seems like any sort of genocide, invasion, murder, or even use of WMDs would be acceptable, so long as it happens outside your country's borders and you can condemn to death "ship back" everyone who arrives.

I am a big fan of the belief that what nations do within their own borders should be considered internal affairs. And that internal affairs should only be the concern of that nation and no one else. Since this is clearly a regional conflict it should thus be contained within said region and the only concern of the world at large should be ensuring it does not spill out.

Overall, it's a shame people have to die. But life ain't fair.

If the world wants to prevent spillover, then the world needs to intervene in this case. Because otherwise ISIL will win and proceed to begin operations against the rest of the Middle East, and eventually Europe.

Yeah. That's worked great for Italy, and Florida has had sooooo much success in stopping the Cubans that way.

Italy won't throw people back the way I say. And neither will Florida. I'd just charter the first container ship I can find and send them all back. And if the place they came from wants to shoot them I'd kindly ask they keep the blood off our deck or pay for the cleaning bill.

On Florida: Are you kidding? The US deports every illegal it finds. The problem is, it's wildly impractical to find them all. I don't know about Italy, but the US is pretty serious about its immigration. We've got bloody Reaper drones on our southern border.

On keeping the blood off the deck:
And you say you're not completely indifferent. You would essentially be willing to murder people in cold blood to keep them out? You wouldn't care if this regime was torturing and killing? Or if it was getting volunteers from, say, France, and aiming to launch terrorist attacks against your homeland and other nations?
That's disgusting.

You might be surprised.
Also, how is it madness to flee to Europe? It's wealthy, industrialized, and democratic, and the nearest area that is those three things. It seems like you're just calling it madness because you don't want to see the icky brown poor people outside.

I have no problem with brown, black, yellow or white people to be honest. I don't discriminate based on origin, race, gender or anything. I just don't like the idea of allowing a swarm of people to come to our countries in search of a livelihood in the middle of a recession. Come back in a year or two when the economy is on the rise and we need cheap labor again.

You do, in fact, discriminate on origin/nationality. It would be absurd, after what you've posted, to claim you don't.

And in fact, Europe currently does need people. I know there's a recession, but Europe needs immigrants for two reasons. One, the population and workforce are shrinking, which doesn't help with the recession.
Two, if European governments could be bothered to get off their asses and try and do something to encourage business and industry, then all that cheap labor would very quickly end the recession. If not... Well, stopping more people from coming in won't help much when no one in your own country (including recent immigrants, who will come whether you want them to or not) has work and start making trouble.

I don't know where you live. I'm going to assume it's Europe, since you said "we" don't share a land border.

In Europe yes.

Well, I got something right about you, then.

So let's say that, a purely hypothetical situation, Mexico and Brazil both begin manufacturing chemical weapons and begin competing for influence in the Caribbean. War breaks out, regional alliances form. Millions of people are killed or maimed, millions more flee, and... Let's say Caracas and Bógota, are hit by chemical weapons and thousands of innocent people murdered in cold blood.

By your argument that a nation should only care about its own people and "screw the rest", Europe should do nothing but deport or kill any desperate refugees from South America in such a situation. Is this correct?

Europe should do what ever is economically the most cost effective thing to do. If it's that time of the century when we need cheap labor than accept the lot. If it's that time of the century we need cheap resources than invest in what ever regime of the two is more willing to export regardless of how much bullets and gas they want to import in return. If it's that time of the century that we have a recession going sink all the refugee ships so they don't steal our jobs. You know, follow the economic interests and not the emotional ones.


Sure I know this is deeply evil. And I would not enjoy doing it. But you know what, life isn't fair. And governments should be lead by cold logic and merciless calculation. They exist to make these choices so we don't have to. To do evil in our names so that we may feel blameless.
I am a fan of the type of cold war politics where both sides openly supported murderous regimes of evil because said regimes made decent promises in return. This whole switch to morality over practicality is illogical.

But to each his own.

"Steal our jobs."
You know, here in America, we've said that every single wave of immigrants- Irish, Chinese, Italian, Mexican- whatever they are. We've said "they'll steal our jobs! They'll overrun us! Catholic/Yellow/Hispanic Peril! Close the borders!"
And you know what?

None of it has ever come true.

I would argue it is never in any government's interest to mistreat refugees and immigrants- because you won't be able to keep them all out, they have the potential to be contributing, productive citizens, and trying to keep them all out and throw the ones already here out never works anyways.
I'm from the US. We're trying it with Latin American immigrants, and we're failing hugely. If we were to reform so they could be accepted, you have no idea how much wealth it could bring my country. If Europe did the same for all it's African and Middle Eastern immigrants, I'm sure things would also improve.

But this thread is about Iraq, not European/American immigration policies, so I digress.

[Greater Istanistan]

Saw the idea of Sunni insurgency in Iran brought up earlier, but that's unlikely. According to Wikipedia less than 9% of the population is Sunni. Furthermore, of those very few would be extremist enough to fight the government, especially considering its massive security apparatus and authoritarian nature and its relative stability. In fact, one could almost see Sunnis rallying behind the Iranian regime in order to prove their loyalty and avoid being crushed as the Iranians start hitting ISIS.

[Unicario]

The USS George H.W. Bush has been moved into the Persian Gulf, meaning the United States is pretty much on the brink of intervening in Iraq with lots of bombs.

[Lemanrussland]

The USS George H.W. Bush has been moved into the Persian Gulf, meaning the United States is pretty much on the brink of intervening in Iraq with lots of bombs.

Not necessarily. We move carrier strike groups around the world to send a message all the time.

[Dracoria]

The USS George H.W. Bush has been moved into the Persian Gulf, meaning the United States is pretty much on the brink of intervening in Iraq with lots of bombs.

Not necessarily. We move carrier strike groups around the world to send a message all the time.

Old-fashioned gunboat diplomacy. Less gun, more boat, lots of missiles.

Crossing the Turkey-Iraq border is most definitely not as easy as you make it sound.

One does not simply walk into Turkey.

[Benuty]

The USS George H.W. Bush has been moved into the Persian Gulf, meaning the United States is pretty much on the brink of intervening in Iraq with lots of bombs.

Not necessarily. We move carrier strike groups around the world to send a message all the time.

Yes but look at the name, the son failed so they are sending in the father [who was actually an "ok" president] to clean up the mess .

[West Charon]

Iraq is still like it was in 2003 however this time an actual government is in control.

[Master Shake]

Getting to Turkey isn't to hard(from Iraq) and then swimming to Greece wouldn't be that tricky either(or they could walk across a bridge in Istanbul)...

It'd probably be easier then the immigrants who start in Columbia and end up in Texas or California...

Crossing the Turkey-Iraq border is most definitely not as easy as you make it sound.

True,but it can't be as bad as going through the jungles of South America or Ecuador...you know there are dangers there on par with Iraq....

They can swim to Europe?

Once they go through Turkey into Greece, they're in the Schengen Area and can get to most of Europe.

They can swim to Europe?

Getting to Turkey isn't to hard(from Iraq) and then swimming to Greece wouldn't be that tricky either(or they could walk across a bridge in Istanbul)...

It'd probably be easier then the immigrants who start in Columbia and end up in Texas or California...

OMG we agree on something!!!

[Mizrad]

Iraq is still like it was in 2003 however this time an actual government is in control.

Except they're not really in control and the actual government's military is full of cowards.

I think this whole conflict has opened my eyes as to why America likes to play world police.

[Greed and Death]

Iraq is still like it was in 2003 however this time an actual government is in control.

Except they're not really in control and the actual government's military is full of cowards.

I think this whole conflict has opened my eyes as to why America likes to play world police.

We all know play world police for 2 decades at a time not one.

[Mizrad]

Except they're not really in control and the actual government's military is full of cowards.

I think this whole conflict has opened my eyes as to why America likes to play world police.

We all know play world police for 2 decades at a time not one.

I'm sorry but what? Not trying to insult you but that made no sense to me.

Also has the link to Iran stating they'd intervene if the US did already been posted?

[Dracoria]

Not necessarily. We move carrier strike groups around the world to send a message all the time.

Yes but look at the name, the son failed so they are sending in the father [who was actually an "ok" president] to clean up the mess .

You seem to have forgotten he was president during the first US-led invasion of Iraq as well.

[Volnotova]

Iraq is still like it was in 2003 however this time an actual government is in control.

Except they're not really in control and the actual government's military is full of cowards.

I think this whole conflict has opened my eyes as to why America likes to play world police.

You mean, to further the interests of the elites that control it?

[Allentyr]

ISIS? What was Malory Archer thinking...

EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT

Speaking of which, are they ISIS or ISIL? My country's news refer to them as ISIL for some damn reason.

[Lemanrussland]

ISIS? What was Malory Archer thinking...

EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT

Speaking of which, are they ISIS or ISIL? My country's news refer to them as ISIL for some damn reason.

It depends on how it's translated.

It is sometimes translated as "The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant" or "The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria".

The name in Arabic is "الدولة الاسلامية في العراق والشام".