MRA's: Fighting for Men or Fighting Against Women?

[Geilinor]

No but principles of fairness and equity seem to me to suggest that we shouldn't allow women to be dicks to men and use the court to accomplish their dickishness (ie extracting monies from unwilling fathers). Ya know in some states failure to pay child support can in fact result in freaking prison time?! How does that even make any sense? I mean pretty hard to make money to pay child support if your in prison.

You know what? Fuck unwilling fathers. The guys have the options to prevent the conception of the child, they didn't take them. Once the child is born then it requires money to survive in a capitalist society and that is the responsibility of the parents, both of them.

If MRAs really want this to stop then they should shut the fuck up about paper abortions and start fighting for free child care, higher pay for women, health insurance in part time job (stupid fucking US) and getting rid of at will employment so the mothers of these children can earn enough that they don't need the fathers income to raise the kid.

I don't see why there can't be all of those. Paper abortions, free child care, higher pay, better health insurance, and change in employment law. None of you people are thinking in your zeal to prove the other one wrong.

[Ostroeuropa]

You said the MRA does nothing for male rape victims. That's why you're ignorant of their activities.
The DBTG campaign is largely irrelevant. The only response to it would either be from G.As demanding a gender neutral approach, or from Sexists.
Non-abolitionist and non-sexist MRAs ofcourse wont respond to it. Why would they.

So bawwwing about how the "Only response" from MRAs on it was a sexist one makes you look a little silly, especially when you are apparently ignorant of their other activities.

You'll note I didn't say anything about the DBTG campaign. So you just assumed I was responding to that part. I guess because it was convenient for you.

So they totally have these activites, but you can't provide one measly link to them?

Yes, that should prove your point entirely.

Me and Conundrum are in this thread telling you that they assisted us with our problem by being a support group, basically.
You're welcome to go and look at basically any MRA site and you'll see similar things.

[Llamalandia]

The capability to avoid permanent bodily changes and risk of death in the process of child birth? Men already have that.

Not the point. Women can renounce any future responsibilities of parenthood by getting abortions.

Rift and because men and women are supposed to be treated equally under the law, does it not then require that we offer men some way to renounce parenthood post conception as well? Are we fighting for women's rights or equal rights?

[Shie]

I disagree with both Feminists and MRMs on all that they stand for. The notion that your natural rights are innate is silly and unfounded by reason.

[Geilinor]

You know what? Fuck unwilling fathers. The guys have the options to prevent the conception of the child, they didn't take them. Once the child is born then it requires money to survive in a capitalist society and that is the responsibility of the parents, both of them.

If MRAs really want this to stop then they should shut the fuck up about paper abortions and start fighting for free child care, higher pay for women, health insurance in part time job (stupid fucking US) and getting rid of at will employment so the mothers of these children can earn enough that they don't need the fathers income to raise the kid.

I don't see why there can't be all of those. Paper abortions, free child care, higher pay, better health insurance, and change in employment law. None of you people are thinking in your zeal to prove the other one wrong.

[Tahar Joblis]

No but principles of fairness and equity seem to me to suggest that we shouldn't allow women to be dicks to men and use the court to accomplish their dickishness (ie extracting monies from unwilling fathers). Ya know in some states failure to pay child support can in fact result in freaking prison time?! How does that even make any sense? I mean pretty hard to make money to pay child support if your in prison.

You know what? Fuck unwilling fathers. The guys have the options to prevent the conception of the child, they didn't take them. Once the child is born then it requires money to survive in a capitalist society and that is the responsibility of the parents, both of them.

You know what? Fuck unwilling mothers. The gals have the options to prevent the conception of a child, they didn't take them. Once the child is conceived then it requires a uterus to survive and that is the responsibility of the mother.

Gee, Misters Prime and Alternate Universe Fartsniffage, it doesn't seem fair to say that just because you don't use a condom, you should get smacked with involuntary obligations so serious. I mean, we're talking serious life-changing consequences, especially considering the knock-on effects of social stigmatization & crap like that.

[Pandeeria]

How are the MRA's hate groups?

[Edlichbury]

Ahhh, yes. And the bigotry begins pouring out. Because wome--men exist only to raise children, right? Fuck wome--men who don't want to raise kids.

But go on, tell us what you really think. Fuck men, am I right?

Yeh pretty much.
He's got this misandry drilled into him. That's why he doesn't experience male oppression, because he's internalized the arguments.
A REAL MAN obviously doesn't do unwilling father stuff. No no, thats lame. The notion that a guy should have control over his own life? pfft

So not caring about unwilling fathers - misandry. Not caring about rape victims - totally rational position because other people care for you.

[Fartsniffage]

You know what? Fuck unwilling fathers. The guys have the options to prevent the conception of the child, they didn't take them. Once the child is born then it requires money to survive in a capitalist society and that is the responsibility of the parents, both of them.

If MRAs really want this to stop then they should shut the fuck up about paper abortions and start fighting for free child care, higher pay for women, health insurance in part time job (stupid fucking US) and getting rid of at will employment so the mothers of these children can earn enough that they don't need the fathers income to raise the kid.

Women can take measures to prevent the birth of the child even after it is conceived. Paying a certain sum of money up front to renounce responsibility for the child is similar.

That might not be a bad idea. I believe I remember reading somewhere it costs around £250,000 to raise a child in the UK. I'd be happy with men wanting to have a paper abortion paying half of that up front. Give the kid a chance.

[Aurora Novus]

Simple really. I see the reproductive process as being a complete thing, not separated into pre and post conception. The fact a woman has a bit longer to consider it is simply a product of biology.

Which doesn't answer my question at all. You're still avoiding. Because whether or not it was intended, and wheyher or not you want to see things that way, abortion gives the mother the ability to determine whether or not she wants to be a mother. Post-conception.

Why don't you want men to have that same capability? Women have it. Why don't you want men to have it?

Let me ask you this, if the baby popped into existence a few moments after conception, would you still be arguing for paper abortions? We live with the consequences of our choices. Don't like it? Get a vasectomy or don't have sex.

However, that doesn't happen. And as it stand, you're only suggesting serious consequences for one sex; men.

But I'll make you a deal. You actually answer my question, and I'll answer your's.

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeh pretty much.
He's got this misandry drilled into him. That's why he doesn't experience male oppression, because he's internalized the arguments.
A REAL MAN obviously doesn't do unwilling father stuff. No no, thats lame. The notion that a guy should have control over his own life? pfft

So not caring about unwilling fathers - misandry. Not caring about rape victims - totally rational position because other people care for you.

Who doesn't care about rape victims, and why do you keep implying it?

[Llamalandia]

No but principles of fairness and equity seem to me to suggest that we shouldn't allow women to be dicks to men and use the court to accomplish their dickishness (ie extracting monies from unwilling fathers). Ya know in some states failure to pay child support can in fact result in freaking prison time?! How does that even make any sense? I mean pretty hard to make money to pay child support if your in prison.

You know what? Fuck unwilling fathers. The guys have the options to prevent the conception of the child, they didn't take them. Once the child is born then it requires money to survive in a capitalist society and that is the responsibility of the parents, both of them.

If MRAs really want this to stop then they should shut the fuck up about paper abortions and start fighting for free child care, higher pay for women, health insurance in part time job (stupid fucking US) and getting rid of at will employment so the mothers of these children can earn enough that they don't need the fathers income to raise the kid.

Oh really I can say the same about women and abortion then because after all women had those exact same options to a kid motherhood and have since now demanded a new right to kill a fetus be recognized. Look I'm not strong prolife but give me a freaking break, feminists need to be consistent or just admit they only really care about advancing women's rights at which point unfortunately one can then justify the existence of mra's to fight for men's rights.

[Ostroeuropa]

Women can take measures to prevent the birth of the child even after it is conceived. Paying a certain sum of money up front to renounce responsibility for the child is similar.

That might not be a bad idea. I believe I remember reading somewhere it costs around £250,000 to raise a child in the UK. I'd be happy with men wanting to have a paper abortion paying half of that up front. Give the kid a chance.

Why should they have to pay exactly. A woman wouldn't have to if she decided to give the child to the state.
Why are you so fucking terrified of letting men have the same option as a woman?
It's blatantly sexist, and it's baffling that this is acceptable in the modern era.

[Fartsniffage]

You know what? Fuck unwilling fathers. The guys have the options to prevent the conception of the child, they didn't take them. Once the child is born then it requires money to survive in a capitalist society and that is the responsibility of the parents, both of them.

If MRAs really want this to stop then they should shut the fuck up about paper abortions and start fighting for free child care, higher pay for women, health insurance in part time job (stupid fucking US) and getting rid of at will employment so the mothers of these children can earn enough that they don't need the fathers income to raise the kid.

Women also have that option of contraception and they still have the functional power of LPS. So, yeh. Not an argument, just a long protracted whine that ignores the argument.
Like I said, functionally, you are letting women have this power and not allowing men. Why?

And how do you know they don't?
In fact most MRAs who argue for LPS explicitly note that, yeh, that's kind of the alternative they're suggesting. Raise child care.

Okay, show me an example.

[Geilinor]

So not caring about unwilling fathers - misandry. Not caring about rape victims - totally rational position because other people care for you.

Who doesn't care about rape victims, and why do you keep implying it?

I don't why Edlich keeps coming back to paper abortions and rape.

[Llamalandia]

No no. That's not what I said.

Whether intended or not, abortion gives women the ability to decide whether or not they want to be a parent, post-conception. Why do you not want men to also have this capability?

Answer my actual question, if you please.

Simple really. I see the reproductive process as being a complete thing, not separated into pre and post conception. The fact a woman has a bit longer to consider it is simply a product of biology.

Let me ask you this, if the baby popped into existence a few moments after conception, would you still be arguing for paper abortions? We live with the consequences of our choices. Don't like it? Get a vasectomy or don't have sex.

Well guess what, biologist doctors and philosophers and just about everyone else does divide the process into unique stages that are differentials from one another. Ever here of the difference between pre and post zygotes barriers ?

[Ostroeuropa]

Women also have that option of contraception and they still have the functional power of LPS. So, yeh. Not an argument, just a long protracted whine that ignores the argument.
Like I said, functionally, you are letting women have this power and not allowing men. Why?

And how do you know they don't?
In fact most MRAs who argue for LPS explicitly note that, yeh, that's kind of the alternative they're suggesting. Raise child care.

Okay, show me an example.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/co ... feminists/

top google result.
MRA legal paternal surrender welfare

specifically

One response also mentions that Denmark does allow men to opt out from becoming a parent. It argues that this is wrong in the US, because it would lead the US towards becoming a welfare state... which is an argument that just makes no sense to me at all. If someone with a child is poor and needs assistance, shouldn't the government use taxpayer money to help them survive? That sounds more sensible than forcing an unwilling individual to contribute financially for 18 years, just because he happened to have sex with her before.

So it was a feminist who flipped their shit about welfare. How progressive of them.
You ready to give in, or you gonna keep having this absurd view on this issue? It's fine. I used to have the same stance you did.
And then I realized it was sexist to do so and changed.

[Aurora Novus]

Oh, and by the way:

Simple really. I see the reproductive process as being a complete thing, not separated into pre and post conception. The fact a man doesn't have to get pregnant is simply a product of biology.

Let me ask you this, if the baby popped into existence a few moments after conception, would you still be arguing for abortions? We live with the consequences of our choices. Don't like it? Get a vasectomy or don't have sex.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the popular position these days that being anti-abortion is the same as being anti-woman, and is sexist and misogynistic?

[The Serbian Empire]

Oh, and by the way:

Simple really. I see the reproductive process as being a complete thing, not separated into pre and post conception. The fact a man doesn't have to get pregnant is simply a product of biology.

Let me ask you this, if the baby popped into existence a few moments after conception, would you still be arguing for abortions? We live with the consequences of our choices. Don't like it? Get a vasectomy or don't have sex.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the popular position these days that being anti-abortion is the same as being anti-woman, and is sexist and misogynistic?

Yes, it is my poster.

[Seriong]

So not caring about unwilling fathers - misandry. Not caring about rape victims - totally rational position because other people care for you.

Who doesn't care about rape victims, and why do you keep implying it?

He's not implying it, stop giving him that credit. He's asserting it.

[Geilinor]

Oh, and by the way:

Simple really. I see the reproductive process as being a complete thing, not separated into pre and post conception. The fact a man doesn't have to get pregnant is simply a product of biology.

Let me ask you this, if the baby popped into existence a few moments after conception, would you still be arguing for abortions? We live with the consequences of our choices. Don't like it? Get a vasectomy or don't have sex.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the popular position these days that being anti-abortion is the same as being anti-woman, and is sexist and misogynistic?

That's the position. If being anti-abortion is anti-woman, being anti-renunciation of parenthood is the same as being anti-man.

[Gauthier]

I disagree with both Feminists and MRMs on all that they stand for. The notion that your natural rights are innate is silly and unfounded by reason.

They should both shut up and follow the traditional gender roles assigned to them, at least that's what you've preached in your threads.

[Fartsniffage]

You know what? Fuck unwilling fathers.

Ahhh, yes. And the bigotry begins pouring out. Because wome--men exist only to raise children, right? Fuck wome--men who don't want to raise kids.

But go on, tell us what you really think. Fuck men, am I right?

Not so much. I tried fucking men but it really didn't do much for me so I stuck with women.

[Ostroeuropa]

Oh, and by the way:



Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the popular position these days that being anti-abortion is the same as being anti-woman, and is sexist and misogynistic?

That's the position. If being anti-abortion is anti-woman, being anti-renunciation of parenthood is the same as being anti-man.

I agree. It's a basic issue of self-determination in terms of how someone wants to live their life. But you can argue it without even bringing up abortion.

[Shie]

Why should they have to pay exactly.

They should pay because they had a direct role in the birth of that child.

A woman wouldn't have to if she decided to give the child to the state.

That shouldn't even be an option because that's a waste of funds.

Why are you so fucking terrified of letting men have the same option as a woman?

Men and women are not the same entities and for them to have the same options is a recipe for no accountability.

It's blatantly sexist, and it's baffling that this is acceptable in the modern era.

No, the MRA stance is blatantly sexist because it accepts abortion as a given.