MRA's: Fighting for Men or Fighting Against Women?

[Condunum]

I maintain the lack of any large judicial action on male abuse victims is indicative of a serious fucking issue, yes.

OK, a new point, and one I can agree with.

Now, what part of the MRM's stance on rape justice and sexual harrasment laws are more reasonable than feminism when it comes to the lack of action for victims of sexual abuse?

Perhaps I chose my wording wrong, as that's what I was trying to get at.

It's not a difference in stance (visibly, anyway) it's a difference in action. Feminist groups tend not to act at all (because it's not an issue central to their focus), whereas MRM groups do, and gender-equality groups do.

[Nervium]

Or, I'm not going to do that.

Ok, cool. So you're being willfully ignorant and spewing forth opinions you have no real basis to hold based on your bigotry and prejudice. That's cool. So long as you are happy admitting it and realize you are a part of the reason that society is sexist.

And I'm done with you.

[Condunum]

Ok, cool. So you're being willfully ignorant and spewing forth opinions you have no real basis to hold based on your bigotry and prejudice. That's cool. So long as you are happy admitting it and realize you are a part of the reason that society is sexist.

And I'm done with you.

You literally just admitted that you won't even consider reviewing your prejudice.

[Ostroeuropa]

I find the AM-MRA narrative far more compelling than the feminist one as regards sexism in society by the way. But I wouldn't consider myself an MRA, as their focus on males unnerves me. I completely understand why THEY do it, it's a reaction to the failure of feminism, which fucking baffles me with it's irrational focus, but nonetheless, it is a focus, and i'd rather not do that.
I'm happy identifying as a gender abolitionist.

[Ostroeuropa]

And I'm done with you.

You literally just admitted that you won't even consider reviewing your prejudice.

Doubtless, any minute now, we'll see dozens of feminists descend upon him to complain about his sexism against males.
Watch it happen, it totally will.

(Or, more likely, they'll descend upon this post to complain about it and act huffy that i'm expecting them to actually live up to the shit they say.)

[Gravlen]

So you do find it unacceptable that you, as a man, do not have the opportunity to give birth, and you see that as a punishment... by whom?


What, much like it currently is in the US?


As you should know, that's not an accurate description of a completely different issue which concerns itself with rights and duties towards a third party, and which isn't a legal procedure in the UK.

I find it unacceptable that males are punished because they lack the opportunity to give birth, yes. We should afford them legal abilities to mirror the females ones.

They aren't "punished", and they do have the same legal rights. However, no legal rights will change the fact that men cannot give birth. Not yet, anyway.

Or, to put it differently: If a (female-to-male) transperson gets pregnant, what rights do that person not have which a female has?

Just like I'd find it unacceptable to simply say that females should be forced to quit their job when they get pregnant and simply lay it at the feet of biology as a justification.

Good.

In matters of economic and reproductive power, we should be pursuing balance between the sexes at all costs so as to remove biology as a consideration. I find it completely fucking baffling that many feminists apparently don't see it as sexist to just say "Well, i'm a woman, so that makes this power I have ok. You aren't, so you aren't allowed it." which is what the argument against LPS usually amounts to.

That's, again, incorrect. The argument usually amounts to - frankly, in all of the debates here I can remember - that one shouldn't be able to simply walk away from ones responsibility, and that this goes for both men and women.

Gravlen, frankly, I have no interest in talking to you so I won't respond further.

Of course not, I understand, you're probably too busy doing deep research on Swedish paternity testing...

[Nervium]

And I'm done with you.

You literally just admitted that you won't even consider reviewing your prejudice.

Yeah, sure, I would love to review my prejudice.
I'm not going to admit I'm a sexist bigot however, that would be ridiculous. And having no basis in reality.

[Ostroeuropa]

I find it unacceptable that males are punished because they lack the opportunity to give birth, yes. We should afford them legal abilities to mirror the females ones.

They aren't "punished", and they do have the same legal rights. However, no legal rights will change the fact that men cannot give birth. Not yet, anyway.

Or, to put it differently: If a (female-to-male) transperson gets pregnant, what rights do that person not have which a female has?

Just like I'd find it unacceptable to simply say that females should be forced to quit their job when they get pregnant and simply lay it at the feet of biology as a justification.

Good.

In matters of economic and reproductive power, we should be pursuing balance between the sexes at all costs so as to remove biology as a consideration. I find it completely fucking baffling that many feminists apparently don't see it as sexist to just say "Well, i'm a woman, so that makes this power I have ok. You aren't, so you aren't allowed it." which is what the argument against LPS usually amounts to.

That's, again, incorrect. The argument usually amounts to - frankly, in all of the debates here I can remember - that one shouldn't be able to simply walk away from ones responsibility, and that this goes for both men and women.

Gravlen, frankly, I have no interest in talking to you so I won't respond further.

Of course not, I understand, you're probably too busy doing deep research on Swedish paternity testing...

Oh screw it, one more, to show why you are exactly the sort of person i'm talking about.

Women aren't "Punished" by being forced to quit their job when they get pregnant (or to keep going while pregnant.) they have the same legal rights as males do. However, no legal rights will change the fact that males cannot give birth.

This is your argument. I'm simply using it against a demographic you want to be privileged in society.

[Condunum]

You literally just admitted that you won't even consider reviewing your prejudice.

Yeah, sure, I would love to review my prejudice.
I'm not going to admit I'm a sexist bigot however, that would be ridiculous. And having no basis in reality.

Sounds a little contradictory, considering you said you would not visit an MRA site. Specifically, you should be visiting an AM-MRA site.

[Ostroeuropa]

You literally just admitted that you won't even consider reviewing your prejudice.

Yeah, sure, I would love to review my prejudice.
I'm not going to admit I'm a sexist bigot however, that would be ridiculous. And having no basis in reality.

Oh ok. So I expect you won't be continuing to say those things about the MRA before you actually go to check out if it's true or not.

[Gravlen]

OK, a new point, and one I can agree with.

Now, what part of the MRM's stance on rape justice and sexual harrasment laws are more reasonable than feminism when it comes to the lack of action for victims of sexual abuse?

Perhaps I chose my wording wrong, as that's what I was trying to get at.

It's not a difference in stance (visibly, anyway) it's a difference in action. Feminist groups tend not to act at all (because it's not an issue central to their focus), whereas MRM groups do, and gender-equality groups do.

I still haven't seen any action by any part of the MRM on victims of sexual abuse, and I have seen actions taken by feminist groups... So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still waiting for examples.

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeah, sure, I would love to review my prejudice.
I'm not going to admit I'm a sexist bigot however, that would be ridiculous. And having no basis in reality.

Sounds a little contradictory, considering you said you would not visit an MRA site. Specifically, you should be visiting an AM-MRA site.

The other alternative is to simply not voice willfully ignorant views.
I have absolutely no interest in visiting the political party website of several parties. But i'm not going to just assume shit and talk about their policies either.

[The Union of the West]

Perhaps I chose my wording wrong, as that's what I was trying to get at.

It's not a difference in stance (visibly, anyway) it's a difference in action. Feminist groups tend not to act at all (because it's not an issue central to their focus), whereas MRM groups do, and gender-equality groups do.

I still haven't seen any action by any part of the MRM on victims of sexual abuse, and I have seen actions taken by feminist groups... So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still waiting for examples.

What actions have feminist groups taken?

[Ostroeuropa]

Perhaps I chose my wording wrong, as that's what I was trying to get at.

It's not a difference in stance (visibly, anyway) it's a difference in action. Feminist groups tend not to act at all (because it's not an issue central to their focus), whereas MRM groups do, and gender-equality groups do.

I still haven't seen any action by any part of the MRM on victims of sexual abuse, and I have seen actions taken by feminist groups... So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still waiting for examples.

Me and Condunum are two examples right here. Though my abuse wasn't sexual, it fits in with the spirit of the question.
As well as the activism and public awareness the MRA is attempting to cause.

Saying we should shut the fuck up or not be taken seriously because there is no political or financial will to get anything done (Because people aren't AWARE OF THE PROBLEM) is completely ridiculous.
In addition, there are some funding efforts for abuse shelters in Canada.

[Condunum]

Perhaps I chose my wording wrong, as that's what I was trying to get at.

It's not a difference in stance (visibly, anyway) it's a difference in action. Feminist groups tend not to act at all (because it's not an issue central to their focus), whereas MRM groups do, and gender-equality groups do.

I still haven't seen any action by any part of the MRM on victims of sexual abuse, and I have seen actions taken by feminist groups... So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still waiting for examples.

If you want an example of "bipartisan" effort, this is one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManKind_Initiative

[Fartsniffage]

When it comes to MRAs, I'll have a whole lot more sympathy for the cause when I see them campaigning for groups of men who actually don't have the same rights or privileges as others. Gay men, black men, Muslim men, that sort of thing.

As a straight, white male, I feel I'm pretty good in terms of how I get treated by society. But maybe that's just me.

[Ostroeuropa]

When it comes to MRAs, I'll have a whole lot more sympathy for the cause when I see them campaigning for groups of men who actually don't have the same rights or privileges as others. Gay men, black men, Muslim men, that sort of thing.

As a straight, white male, I feel I'm pretty good in terms of how I get treated by society. But maybe that's just me.

Because you've been blinded to the oppression you are under. How often do you simply ignore or not take seriously when someone tells you to man up and such.
How often do you alter your behaviour based on those passive insults and such.

In addition, a lot of the MRAs do advocate for minority males as well. Specifically, as regards gay males, a lot of them will point out that a lot of the homophobia they face is because males are bullied and coerced into being stereotypes. End the "Man up" type of nonsense, and a lot of that will go away.

[Condunum]

When it comes to MRAs, I'll have a whole lot more sympathy for the cause when I see them campaigning for groups of men who actually don't have the same rights or privileges as others. Gay men, black men, Muslim men, that sort of thing.

As a straight, white male, I feel I'm pretty good in terms of how I get treated by society. But maybe that's just me.

Because you've been blinded to the oppression you are under. How often do you simply ignore or not take seriously when someone tells you to man up and such.
How often do you alter your behaviour based on those passive insults and such.

In addition, a lot of the MRAs do advocate for minority males as well. Specifically, as regards gay males, a lot of them will point out that a lot of the homophobia they face is because males are bullied and coerced into being stereotypes. End the "Man up" type of nonsense, and a lot of that will go away.

What I'd personally like is for some sort of initiative with the NAACP, because low-income black men and women are victims of some of the worst domestic abuse cases imaginable.

[Ostroeuropa]

Because you've been blinded to the oppression you are under. How often do you simply ignore or not take seriously when someone tells you to man up and such.
How often do you alter your behaviour based on those passive insults and such.

In addition, a lot of the MRAs do advocate for minority males as well. Specifically, as regards gay males, a lot of them will point out that a lot of the homophobia they face is because males are bullied and coerced into being stereotypes. End the "Man up" type of nonsense, and a lot of that will go away.

What I'd personally like is for some sort of initiative with the NAACP, because low-income black men and women are victims of some of the worst domestic abuse cases imaginable.

The pressure placed on males to be the providers for their families and such otherwise they aren't real men and all that bullshit means that poor groups are more likely to turn to crime. For females, not being a provider is an option. For males, it isn't. If the NAACP wants to reduce the number of black males in prisons, this anti-sexist approach would be one of the ways to do that. It'd also mean less violence from males being coerced into being stereotypes.

[Seriong]

Have you bothered to actually check upvotes and downvotes on MRA sites

No, because I don't respect anyone involved.

Complaining about feminists is part and parcel of the MRA movement at the moment, and is one of the most unappealing things you can do. Makes you come off like a chauvinistic idiot, however valid you may think your own opinion on the matter is.

"They don't take the time to do what we, a group of people who complain constantly about them, think they should do, so their movement is flawed" - yeah jog on and break into Buckingham Palace in a batman costume or whatever then.

Well, good to know you have no interest in serious discussion.

Oh, okay. So you made the point because of a preconceived notion that MRAs believe in the Matriarchy and female supremacy et al.

No.

That's kind of a definition of the MRM, yes.

No, it isn't.

So basically you havn't actually spent any time talking to these people and are just relying on what feminists tell you about them. That's nice. Try going to one of their sites and asking.

Or, I'm not going to do that.

So, you've developed an opinion about the objective of the MRM, in contrast to what MRAs tell you they want, and you don't want to learn anything more about the issue. See my words to Allet Klar.

You literally just admitted that you won't even consider reviewing your prejudice.

Yeah, sure, I would love to review my prejudice.
I'm not going to admit I'm a sexist bigot however, that would be ridiculous. And having no basis in reality.

How are you going to review you prejudice? By talking to those similarly prejudiced? That seems silly.

No one told you to call yourself a sexist, that's not in the camp of the MRM, all you were asked to do was actually go and talk to the people you claim to know the motives of.

[Gravlen]

They aren't "punished", and they do have the same legal rights. However, no legal rights will change the fact that men cannot give birth. Not yet, anyway.

Or, to put it differently: If a (female-to-male) transperson gets pregnant, what rights do that person not have which a female has?


Good.


That's, again, incorrect. The argument usually amounts to - frankly, in all of the debates here I can remember - that one shouldn't be able to simply walk away from ones responsibility, and that this goes for both men and women.


Of course not, I understand, you're probably too busy doing deep research on Swedish paternity testing...

Oh screw it, one more, to show why you are exactly the sort of person i'm talking about.

Women aren't "Punished" by being forced to quit their job when they get pregnant (or to keep going while pregnant.) they have the same legal rights as males do. However, no legal rights will change the fact that males cannot give birth.

This is your argument. I'm simply using it against a demographic you want to be privileged in society.

You still don't make any sense.

Women aren't being forced to quit their jobs because they get pregnant, even without any maternity leave. Having no parental leave only means they'd have to find alternative ways to take time off work (sick leave, vacation days, leave of absence) or risk being fired. But they wouldn't have to quit. Heck, the parents could even decide that the father was the one staying home after the child was born. (Interesting that you fail to take that into consideration, by the way...)

Neither is it all about biology, there's other beneficial sides to parental leave too. It benefits the child, it benefits the partner, it benefits society, and it arguably benefits the employer.

Sooo... what's your point?

[Galloism]

Saying that men have all the rights is contradictory to saying that men, as a class, face no issues of discrimination.

Then maybe we have a different definition of "rights".

Then we can make the same argument for women. Abortion isn't a reproductive right, because they can control their motherhood through proper protection. And let's remove safe havens as well. They aren't a right either, because again, reproduction can be controlled through proper protection.

Whoops.

I immediately went on to say that I recognize the difference between men and women in this case, so I'm not sure why you made this point. And don't condescend, there's no need for it.

Not just abortion, but also in the form of safe havens. If a mother does not feel ready to be a mother, after giving birth to the child she has a window of opportunity to legally abandon the child, without consent from the father, and in many cases without even having to inform him. Even if the father was willing to raise the child on his own, without child support from the mother.

See what happens if a man tries to just walk out of a babies life when it's born if he doesn't feel like he's ready to be a father. Let's see how the law smiles upon him.

I wasn't aware of safe haven laws until you and Gallo pointed them out, and as such I'm a bit unsure how I feel about them, but I would note that those laws are controversial, so it's not as if the issue isn't recognized.

Safe haven laws, most of which cannot be reversed by the father.

The mother can surrender both their parental rights without the father's knowledge or consent. He can never get them back (in most states).

See my above response.

Actually, it is a lack of recognition. If there was recognition, there would be change. Most people are not deliberately anti-male. It's sort of accidental, subconscious even.

That's how it works.

That's not true at all. Think about how many people think corporations shouldn't be treated as people, and consider the fact that they still are. Bureaucracy is inherently resistant to change, so a lack of change doesn't indicate a lack of opposition.

The laws actually don't need to change (in most states) regarding rape. Most of them are gender neutral on their face. It's already a crime for a woman to rape a man, and, in most jurisdictions, the same crime as the reverse.

It's just never fucking prosecuted.

[Condunum]

Oh screw it, one more, to show why you are exactly the sort of person i'm talking about.

Women aren't "Punished" by being forced to quit their job when they get pregnant (or to keep going while pregnant.) they have the same legal rights as males do. However, no legal rights will change the fact that males cannot give birth.

This is your argument. I'm simply using it against a demographic you want to be privileged in society.

You still don't make any sense.

Women aren't being forced to quit their jobs because they get pregnant, even without any maternity leave. Having no parental leave only means they'd have to find alternative ways to take time off work (sick leave, vacation days, leave of absence) or risk being fired.

Forcing someone to use sick leave and vacation days for paternal leave is just cruel.

Heck, the parents could even decide that the father was the one staying home after the child was born. (Interesting that you fail to take that into consideration, by the way...)

Ostero has regularly been supportive of the sharing gender roles. This one included.

[Gravlen]

I still haven't seen any action by any part of the MRM on victims of sexual abuse, and I have seen actions taken by feminist groups... So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still waiting for examples.

What actions have feminist groups taken?

Lobbying for more funds for sexual abuse victims (male and female, albeit mostly for children), lobbying for more resources for police investigating sexual abuse (especially incest), raising awareness about sexual abuse with different campaigns.

[Libertarian California]

I became sympathetic to the men's rights movement after my father was metaphorically raped in a divorce settlement by my thief of a mother.

If I am to ever give a shit about gender issues, it's when men are given the shaft by parasitical lawyers and voracious spouses.