MRA's: Fighting for Men or Fighting Against Women?

[Gauthier]

The draft is too politically problematic to enact anymore. Even reinstating the selective service system in 1979 was highly controversial. Were it to go up to a vote now, I don't think it would pass.

The only way it would pass was if Obama openly opposed the draft.

[Gauthier]

Lol its no where near what a real hate group is and is capable of doing.I disagree with most of them, but they do have some points such as this.
(Image)

Let me know when men have been fired from jobs for not looking like He-Man.

[Fartsniffage]

I honestly don't remember the last time I was told by anyone to man up.

I'd really like to see some examples of that. On the few occasions I've perused MRA forums of site, I've seen quite prodigious use of the word "fag".

Relevant:

"I would rather not see these kinds of "gay, redpill, and proud" posts. Masculinity is in part defined by our attraction to the feminine. If your preference is to be a man-pleaser then you're not expressing any kind of masculinity that's worth celebrating."

By the time I got to this point in part 3, I was more than won over. Jesus fucking christ. I guess because I don't hang around these groups I was only ever exposed to their more intellectual sides. I never knew this kind of shit was going on in the deeper communities.

Hah. Point 3 was my entire argument but better written.

[Ostroeuropa]

If the number who bother contesting is lowered by the fact that males think it isn't worth contesting as they'll likely lose, isn't that just as big a problem?

How many men think that? What studies do you have to show that's a problem?

Do you know what the word if means?

[Dyakovo]

I became sympathetic to the men's rights movement after my father was metaphorically raped in a divorce settlement by my thief of a mother.

If I am to ever give a shit about gender issues, it's when men are given the shaft by parasitical lawyers and voracious spouses.

That's one of the many reasons for the MRM: Court Cases favoring women.

And what are MRM groups doing to address the issue?
What exactly is the issue? Explain in detail.

[Ostroeuropa]

So that's it, we're to dictate rights by biology? What?

That's what I find absolutely baffling about these people. Their sexism is so blatant it's staggering.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's one of the many reasons for the MRM: Court Cases favoring women.

And what are MRM groups doing to address the issue?
What exactly is the issue? Explain in detail.

Raising awareness and recruiting, as well as protesting and holding seminars and meet ups. It's the beginning of the movement you know.
If we just up and dismissed feminism in it's inception because they weren't doing shit, that'd be ridiculous.

[Dyakovo]

Because you've been blinded to the oppression you are under. How often do you simply ignore or not take seriously when someone tells you to man up and such.
How often do you alter your behaviour based on those passive insults and such.

In addition, a lot of the MRAs do advocate for minority males as well. Specifically, as regards gay males, a lot of them will point out that a lot of the homophobia they face is because males are bullied and coerced into being stereotypes. End the "Man up" type of nonsense, and a lot of that will go away.

I honestly don't remember the last time I was told by anyone to man up.

It's because you're developing Alzheimer's, isn't it?

[Tahar Joblis]

I became sympathetic to the men's rights movement after my father was metaphorically raped in a divorce settlement by my thief of a mother.

If I am to ever give a shit about gender issues, it's when men are given the shaft by parasitical lawyers and voracious spouses.

That is probably the #1 category of things MRAs are interested in. There's this complex cluster of official and unofficial bias which could be crudely boiled down to "men are given the shaft by parasitical lawyers and voracious spouses." To more or less list the elements of that cluster, MRAs are strongly concerned with sexist policy, law, and enforcement of policy / law in the following domains:

• Alimony
• Child custody
• Involuntary paternity
• Paternity fraud
• Adoption law
• Domestic abuse

The operating regime is that in all these areas, women can do no wrong in the eyes of the law, and men are required to "suck it up" and "man up." I can't think of any cluster of issues that's a higher specific priority for the MRM outside of the big sweeping mission statements (ending discrimination against men, ending misandry, ending male disposeability, removing female privilege, etc) that include all of them already anyway.

[Ostroeuropa]

I became sympathetic to the men's rights movement after my father was metaphorically raped in a divorce settlement by my thief of a mother.

If I am to ever give a shit about gender issues, it's when men are given the shaft by parasitical lawyers and voracious spouses.

That is probably the #1 category of things MRAs are interested in. There's this complex cluster of official and unofficial bias which could be crudely boiled down to "men are given the shaft by parasitical lawyers and voracious spouses." To more or less list the elements of that cluster, MRAs are strongly concerned with sexist policy, law, and enforcement of policy / law in the following domains:

• Alimony
• Child custody
• Involuntary paternity
• Paternity fraud
• Adoption law
• Domestic abuse

The operating regime is that in all these areas, women can do no wrong in the eyes of the law, and men are required to "suck it up" and "man up." I can't think of any cluster of issues that's a higher specific priority for the MRM outside of the big sweeping mission statements (ending discrimination against men, ending misandry, ending male disposeability, removing female privilege, etc) that include all of them already anyway.

TJ, what do you think of my argument that we should seperate the MRA into the two categories of anti-masculine MRAs and pro-masculine MRAs. (You know, the "Mras" who say the man-up kind of shit.)
It has a parallel within feminism of anti-sex and pro-sex.

[Tel]

The MRA is the quintessence of human stupidity.

[Dyakovo]

And what are MRM groups doing to address the issue?
What exactly is the issue? Explain in detail.

Raising awareness and recruiting, as well as protesting and holding seminars and meet ups. It's the beginning of the movement you know.
If we just up and dismissed feminism in it's inception because they weren't doing shit, that'd be ridiculous.

I'm glad you admit you're ridiculous.

[Condunum]

The MRA is the quintessence of human stupidity.

Yes that's nice run along now.

[Ostroeuropa]

Raising awareness and recruiting, as well as protesting and holding seminars and meet ups. It's the beginning of the movement you know.
If we just up and dismissed feminism in it's inception because they weren't doing shit, that'd be ridiculous.

I'm glad you admit you're ridiculous.

I'd be interested to know how you even think this made sense in the context of my post.
Who am I kidding, it doesn't make sense and you know it, you're just insulting me and pretending you're good at this whole making sense thing in the process.

[Gravlen]

Lack of paternity leave is many things, but cruel is not among them.

So it's just semantics.

...sure, we'll go with that.

No he's not.

Indeed he was, in his strange attempt to link it to paper abortions and safe haven laws.

Where are you getting this?[/quote]
His posts.

Men and Women don't have the same parental rights.

In short, they do. They have as equal rights as biology allows for.

So that's it, we're to dictate rights by biology? What?[/quote]
Biology does indeed have an impact on rights. This should not come as a surprise. A woman carries to term, and gives birth, A man does not, and his part in the reproduction process is over about nine months before a child is born. These differences mold the basic rights we're talking about, but while the basis may be slightly different, the rest is as similar and equal as we can manage.

[Tel]

The MRA is the quintessence of human stupidity.

Yes that's nice run along now.

It is nice, isn't it? To be right about something, that is.

I lack the patience to actually look it up, I'm presuming you're a supporter?

[Gravlen]

So that's it, we're to dictate rights by biology? What?

That's what I find absolutely baffling about these people. Their sexism is so blatant it's staggering.

There's nothing sexist about recognizing that the reproductive process differs between men and women.

[Fartsniffage]

How many men think that? What studies do you have to show that's a problem?

Do you know what the word if means?

Yes.

So what evidence do you have that this is a problem? The numbers I seen indicate that when men bother to show up in court then they get a fair shake so if you want to make the argument that men don't show up out of some sense that it isn't fair then I assume you have something to back that up?

[Condunum]

So that's it, we're to dictate rights by biology? What?

Biology does indeed have an impact on rights. This should not come as a surprise. A woman carries to term, and gives birth, A man does not, and his part in the reproduction process is over about nine months before a child is born. These differences mold the basic rights we're talking about, but while the basis may be slightly different, the rest is as similar and equal as we can manage.

I'm not seeing how this has to do with anything, all you're doing is conflating things.

[Fartsniffage]

I honestly don't remember the last time I was told by anyone to man up.

It's because you're developing Alzheimer's, isn't it?

For some reason people don't seem to tell 6 foot, 18 stone skinheads to "man up".

I can't understand it myself....

[Condunum]

Yes that's nice run along now.

It is nice, isn't it? To be right about something, that is.

I lack the patience to actually look it up, I'm presuming you're a supporter?

Are you asking if I'm a supporter of your preconcieved notion of MRAs? If so, no. Am I a supporter of my own rights and my own representation in judicial proceedings which are censored by a societal silence on male victims, something addressed by MRAs? Yes. Put simply, I support the Men's Rights Movement in general in it's most basic goals, and eclectically on specific organizations.

[Condunum]

That's what I find absolutely baffling about these people. Their sexism is so blatant it's staggering.

There's nothing sexist about recognizing that the reproductive process differs between men and women.

But you're not explaining why that equates different rights.

[Aurora Novus]

The argument usually amounts to - frankly, in all of the debates here I can remember - that one shouldn't be able to simply walk away from ones responsibility, and that this goes for both men and women.

What makes it the man's responsibility to raise the child the woman is pregnant with? The fact that he had sex with her and impregnanted her, right?

So why isn't the same logic applied to women? We don't say "Oh, you had sex, you made your choice. It's your responsibility to raise the child. No abortion for you." Yes, a fetus has no inherent right to a mother's womb, which is why abortion is allowed. But that's not the only reason. Part of the reason also is that it allows for propsective mother's to make the choice if they want to be mothers. That's why we don't say they have a responsibility to to give birth to and raise the child once they're pregnant. Because we believe they should be able to make that choice for themselves, not have it forced upon them by society.

There is no reason men should not be afforded something similar.

[Condunum]

It's because you're developing Alzheimer's, isn't it?

For some reason people don't seem to tell 6 foot, 18 stone skinheads to "man up".

I can't understand it myself....

Jesus man, 18 stone? You could squash someone with a hand.

[Kelinfort]

Do I support a more fair and equal divorce and court custody system? Absolutely. Do I despise MRA's activity in any fields beyond what I stated last sentence? Yes.