Only Want to Date White Girls, is this Racist?

[Conkerials]

I'm comparing two aspects of a human being that attribute to attractiveness, desire, etc. Excluding gender from this debate would be stupid. It's simply not something you control. You either are or you aren't. You aren't racist for wanting only white women unless you are sexist for only wanting women.

No, excluding gender from this debate is the only intellectually honest thing you could do concerning it.

Your environment (i.e. the media, advertisements, social norms, etc.) does not want to make you want to only fuck women. Being constantly subject to advertisements of attractive men over the course of your life will not make you want to fuck a man. Being subject to media and advertisements portraying that light skin=good and dark skin=bad combined with social norms tracing back to slavery, can, and does impact your desire to only date white women.

Based on what facts do you get this?
Never have I personally heard, "Oh, all those white women on T.V. make me less attracted to people of darker skin colors."

[Aurora Novus]

Institutional Racism =/= Ideological Racism

Institutional Racism happens when there's power relations involved. Ideological Racism is the idea that one segment of the population is better or superior on account of their race. This does not mean that institutionalized racism happens. You can have racist ideas without being an institutional racist.

Right, I should have made mention of that as well.

That does not, however, change the validity of my point. Having preferences of skin tone is not ideological racism.

[Mavorpen]

I find it funny that you claim to have studied the origins of racism, because most acedemics define racism in terms of power relations and institutional oppression, not "putting value on certain skin colours above others".

As I said, defining racism as that is a fucking stupid and vapid way of defining it. It's a child's way of defining racism. Racism is more than just a value of skin colour. It's unjustified harm, it's involved in power struggles and institutional oppression. The value of skin colour is a sympton of racism, it's not what racism is.

Institutional Racism =/= Ideological Racism

Institutional Racism happens when there's power relations involved. Ideological Racism is the idea that one segment of the population is better or superior on account of their race. This does not mean that institutionalized racism happens. You can have racist ideas without being an institutional racist.

You don't even need to go down this route. See, the thing is, this topic you're discussing DOES fall under institutional racism. The overwhelming preference for lighter skin is an institutionalized racism that traces back to the period of slavery in the United States. I continued throughout reconstruction and it continues today.

[Mavorpen]

No, excluding gender from this debate is the only intellectually honest thing you could do concerning it.

Your environment (i.e. the media, advertisements, social norms, etc.) does not want to make you want to only fuck women. Being constantly subject to advertisements of attractive men over the course of your life will not make you want to fuck a man. Being subject to media and advertisements portraying that light skin=good and dark skin=bad combined with social norms tracing back to slavery, can, and does impact your desire to only date white women.

Based on what facts do you get this?
Never have I personally heard, "Oh, all those white women on T.V. make me less attracted to people of darker skin colors."

Then you should do some ACTUAL research on the subject instead of relying upon an argument from ignorance.

The portrayal of minorities in media and advertisements does, in fact, influence how they are perceived by individuals who aren't a minority. We've known this for a long time.

[Aurora Novus]

Institutional Racism =/= Ideological Racism

Institutional Racism happens when there's power relations involved. Ideological Racism is the idea that one segment of the population is better or superior on account of their race. This does not mean that institutionalized racism happens. You can have racist ideas without being an institutional racist.

You don't even need to go down this route. See, the thing is, this topic you're discussing DOES fall under institutional racism. The overwhelming preference for lighter skin is an institutionalized racism that traces back to the period of slavery in the United States. I continued throughout reconstruction and it continues today.

Overwhelmingly preference for lighter skin? What are you talking about? Most people date within their own race. Which is what this topic is about. Dating, and whether or not finding certain races more attractive (or exclusively attractive) is racist. Most people find members of their own race the most attractive, and most people end up being in relationships with members of their own race. That's not an "overwhelming preference for ligher skin."

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's not that it's outright racism, it is that the preference is grounded in racist logic.

So you accept then that it's possible for the preference to not be grounded in racist logic?

Good. Now explain to me why you think the majority of the time it is grounded in racist logic. Because it's fucking not.

When you date a much much less desirable woman rather than a woman you match with but you don't date them simply because "she's black" then that's built upon racist logic. That's precisely what racist logic is: that you put less value on a person in mere account of their race.

[Mavorpen]

So you accept then that it's possible for the preference to not be grounded in racist logic?

Good. Now explain to me why you think the majority of the time it is grounded in racist logic. Because it's fucking not.

The majority of the time is not, is simply a preference.

However, when you date a much much less desirable woman rather than a woman you match with but you don't date them simply because "she's black" then that's built upon racist logic. That's precisely what racist logic is: that you put less value on a person in mere account of their race.

It's almost like instead of arguing against what you've actually posted, he's arguing against a caricature.

[Aurora Novus]

The majority of the time is not, is simply a preference.

Yes, it is. Most people are not closet racists, despite your attempts to slander them as such.

However, when you date a much much less desirable woman rather than a woman you match with but you don't date them simply because "she's black" then that's built upon racist logic. That's precisely what racist logic is: that you put less value on a person in mere account of their race.

That is, again, a child's way of defining racism. That's not a reasonable definition of racism, because that's reaicms devoid of things like unjustified harm and instituional or ideological oppression. You are not fucking oppressed because someone won't date you. This is what I mean by your argument being based on an entitlement complex.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The majority of the time is not, is simply a preference.

However, when you date a much much less desirable woman rather than a woman you match with but you don't date them simply because "she's black" then that's built upon racist logic. That's precisely what racist logic is: that you put less value on a person in mere account of their race.

It's almost like instead of arguing against what you've actually posted, he's arguing against a caricature.

No kidding. I feel like I have to make my point over and over here.

[Conkerials]

Based on what facts do you get this?
Never have I personally heard, "Oh, all those white women on T.V. make me less attracted to people of darker skin colors."

Then you should do some ACTUAL research on the subject instead of relying upon an argument from ignorance.

The portrayal of minorities in media and advertisements does, in fact, influence how they are perceived by individuals who aren't a minority. We've known this for a long time.

Because people have an image of beauty that is preference of a lighter skin colour, and other people strive to achieve that image, means nothing or racism. In what way does this mean that having a preference of a certain skin colour prove racist intent? It just means that people are too insecure in their owns bodies.

[Aurora Novus]

The majority of the time is not, is simply a preference.

However, when you date a much much less desirable woman rather than a woman you match with but you don't date them simply because "she's black" then that's built upon racist logic. That's precisely what racist logic is: that you put less value on a person in mere account of their race.

It's almost like instead of arguing against what you've actually posted, he's arguing against a caricature.

No, I'm arguing against exactly what's he's posted.

Are you incapable of honesty?

[Infected Mushroom]

No, excluding gender from this debate is the only intellectually honest thing you could do concerning it.

Your environment (i.e. the media, advertisements, social norms, etc.) does not want to make you want to only fuck women. Being constantly subject to advertisements of attractive men over the course of your life will not make you want to fuck a man. Being subject to media and advertisements portraying that light skin=good and dark skin=bad combined with social norms tracing back to slavery, can, and does impact your desire to only date white women.

Based on what facts do you get this?
Never have I personally heard, "Oh, all those white women on T.V. make me less attracted to people of darker skin colors."

I have never heard of that either...

[Mavorpen]

Because people have an image of beauty that is preference of a lighter skin colour, and other people strive to achieve that image, means nothing or racism.

If you ignore all of history, then sure, I could see your point.

Unfortunately, I don't think grounding an argument on such a lazy method of using logic and reasoning is valid.

[Aurora Novus]

It's almost like instead of arguing against what you've actually posted, he's arguing against a caricature.

No kidding. I feel like I have to make my point over and over here.

Perhaps you should try making an actually decent point.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

That is, again, a child's way of defining racism. That's not a reasonable definition of racism, because that's reaicms devoid of things like unjustified harm and instituional or ideological oppression. You are not fucking oppressed because someone won't date you. This is what I mean by your argument being based on an entitlement complex.

Okay, do you know what ideological racism is? Do you even know that valuing one person over another because of a trait they cannot change is ideological -ism?!

I mean, if you put less value on women over men is sexism, if you put less value over black women than white women is racism. It doesn't have to be institutional oppression, but you are devaluing a person on account of their race. That's the fucking point of racism. It's not to gain any power, it is to DEVALUE a person so THEN you can have an excuse to not congregate with them or at worst have control over them because you feel entitled to.

Shit, that's like, literally what happened in Vietnam to not go that far; men thought Vietnamese women were "Exotic objects of sexual pleasure" simply because they were Asian and so they began seeking them and objectifying them. That's racism in and of itself right there, because they were only thinking of Vietnamese women as sexual objects, not as people.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No kidding. I feel like I have to make my point over and over here.

Perhaps you should try making an actually decent point.

I can't talk to deaf ears and caricatures either.

[Arlenton]

See also colonial Latin America, where intermarriage was encouraged in a way that would increase whiteness generationally.

Indeed, proving my point that Shie wanting to force people to marry outside their races does not prove that he is not a racist.

I really think such a system inherently favors the majority race. In the USA (notwithstanding immigration), forcing or encouraging interracial marriages in a carefully-planned manner could result in the elimination of the Black American race within 100 years, and possibly all other minority races with it.




So if you're not a racist, I'd argue it's best to let members of each race marry as they choose. Minority races need some intra-racial marriages to occur in order to preserve themselves, and that isn't ideology; it's pure biology.

Wanting mandatory interracial marriage may not necessarily make you a racist, but the results of such a system are something that many racists would prefer (the elimination of minorities in the long term), and as such, it certainly does not prove that one is not racist.

Why would anyone even consider this? (In bold + underlined)

[Norstal]

Perhaps you should try making an actually decent point.

I can't talk to deaf ears and caricatures either.

I made it a rule that, whoever starts posting in a caustic manner, e.g "THIS IS CHILDISH" or "WHAT A STUPID ARGUMENT LOL", it's best to just ignore that person because there's a 90% chance their arguments are gonna be crap.

Unless of course the argument they're going against is something that is just truly stupid, like "let's kill all Jews."

[Aurora Novus]

Okay, do you know what ideological racism is? Do you even know that valuing one person over another because of a trait they cannot change is ideological -ism?!

Ideological racism is not simply "I like X skin colour more than Y skin colour". It's more fucking complex than that. Do you even know what you're talking about? Ideological racism deals with cultural norms and social bonds, not mere petty preferences.

I mean, if you put less value on women over men is sexism, if you put less value over black women than white women is racism.

No, and no. Also, nice idictment of heterosexuality/homosexuality there. If you're anything other than a bisexual/asexual, you're a sexist!

It doesn't have to be institutional oppression, but you are devaluing a person on account of their race. That's the fucking point of racism. It's not to gain any power, it is to DEVALUE a person so THEN you can have an excuse to not congregate with them or at worst have control over them because you feel entitled to.

Having a personal taste that opposes someone is not the same as devaluing them. If I find someone unattractive, I'm not saying they are a lesser human being. Holy fucking shit.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Okay, do you know what ideological racism is? Do you even know that valuing one person over another because of a trait they cannot change is ideological -ism?!

Ideological racism is not simply "I like X skin colour more than Y skin colour". It's more fucking complex than that. Do you even know what you're talking about? Ideological racism deals with cultural norms and social bonds, not mere petty preferences.

I mean, if you put less value on women over men is sexism, if you put less value over black women than white women is racism.

No, and no. Also, nice idictment of heterosexuality/homosexuality there. If you're anything other than a bisexual/asexual, you're a sexist!

It doesn't have to be institutional oppression, but you are devaluing a person on account of their race. That's the fucking point of racism. It's not to gain any power, it is to DEVALUE a person so THEN you can have an excuse to not congregate with them or at worst have control over them because you feel entitled to.

Having a personal taste that opposes someone is not the same as devaluing them. If I find someone unattractive, I'm not saying they are a lesser human being. Holy fucking shit.

Let's start with the fucking obvious; how is dating not a social bond?

Then, whoever said that I am making it sound like bisexual/asexual is sexism? What I'm saying is that if you devalue them simply because of who they are is sexist and/or racist.

And lastly, having a personal taste is fine, but going all righteous and say "I won't date you because you're not my race" is racist because you're putting all the weight of a person's dateability over their race; you don't even know them or you know they are good people who you could be happy with but JUST BECAUSE SHE'S NOT YOUR RACE you're not dating them. That isn't institutional racism where you oppress them, that's ideological racism in that you refuse to date them on account of something "wrong" about them or "undesirable" that they have no control of like their race.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I can't talk to deaf ears and caricatures either.

I made it a rule that, whoever starts posting in a caustic manner, e.g "THIS IS CHILDISH" or "WHAT A STUPID ARGUMENT LOL", it's best to just ignore that person because there's a 90% chance their arguments are gonna be crap.

Unless of course the argument they're going against is something that is just truly stupid, like "let's kill all Jews."

I could probably do well enforcing that rule on my conversations.

[Aurora Novus]

Let's start with the fucking obvious; how is dating not a social bond?

I never said it wasn't.

Then, whoever said that I am making it sound like bisexual/asexual is sexism? What I'm saying is that if you devalue them simply because of who they are is sexist and/or racist.

Having a personal preference in dating is not the same as devaluing someone.

And lastly, having a personal taste is fine, but going all righteous and say "I won't date you because you're not my race" is racist

So what you're saying is, it's okay to have a personal preference, so long as you never fucking act on it? That's fucking stupid. Because that's what a personal preference is. Discrimination. It's valuing certain traits above others. A consequence of valuing certain traits above others is not choosing that which you don't fucking value.

because you're putting all the weight of a person's dateability over their race;

So what? So what if you are? They aren't entitled to a date with you, there's nothing wrong with valuing certain traits in someone over other traits when it comes to your personal preferences in dating. They are not entitled to a relationship with me.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Let's start with the fucking obvious; how is dating not a social bond?

I never said it wasn't.

Then, whoever said that I am making it sound like bisexual/asexual is sexism? What I'm saying is that if you devalue them simply because of who they are is sexist and/or racist.

Having a personal preference in dating is not the same as devaluing someone.

And lastly, having a personal taste is fine, but going all righteous and say "I won't date you because you're not my race" is racist

So what you're saying is, it's okay to have a personal preference, so long as you never fucking act on it? That's fucking stupid. Because that's what a personal preference is. Discrimination. It's valuing certain traits above others. A consequence of valuing certain traits above others is not choosing that which you don't fucking value.

because you're putting all the weight of a person's dateability over their race;

So what? So what if you are? They aren't entitled to a date with you, there's nothing wrong with valuing certain traits in someone over other traits when it comes to your personal preferences in dating. They are not entitled to a relationship with me.

1. Then why the fuck did you even bring up the whole "ideological racism" definition? We're talking about dating, which is a social bond; can't get more obvious that what we're discussing is racism within dating, can it?

2. No, but treating someone who is dateable and you two match different simply because of their race color is built upon racist logic.

3. No, it's fine to have a personal preference and to act on it, as long as you are logically consistent in what you're looking for. If you forego all you need in a woman merely because of their race is racist, because you think their skin color matters on who they are as a person.

And I never said anyone's entitled to a date; what I am saying is that a thinking where you put all the weight of a person's dateability over their race is racist. It doesn't mean they are entitled, just that you're using racist logic to not date them. Just as men don't feel entitled to date women, women are not entitled to date someone they deem less than a man. Sit on that for a second.

[Aurora Novus]

1. Then why the fuck did you even bring up the whole "ideological racism" definition? We're talking about dating, which is a social bond; can't get more obvious that what we're discussing is racism within dating, can it?

Because you said that ideological racism was the equivalent of merely having a preference for one skin colour over others. Which it isn't. What, have you forgotten your own words now? Fucking christ.

2. No, but treating someone who is dateable and you two match different simply because of their race color is built upon racist logic.

First of all, what defines being "datable"? That is a subjective value judgement. What makes someone datable is different for everyone, and part of what makes someone datable is going to be their physical appearance. Part of physical appearance is race.

No, it's not built upon racist logic, because "I like X skin colour more than Y" is not racist by any serious, mature definition.

3. No, it's fine to have a personal preference and to act on it, as long as you are logically consistent in what you're looking for.

Then you just admitted you are fine with people exlcuding certain races from their dating pool, provided they are logically consisten in doing so.

If you forego all you need in a woman merely because of their race is racist, because you think their skin color matters on who they are as a person.

Part of what (some) people need in a relationship is someone with a physical appearance they find attractive. And part of whether or not someone is physically attractive to someone is often race.

And I never said anyone's entitled to a date; what I am saying is that a thinking where you put all the weight of a person's dateability over their race is racist.

No, it isn't. But, more to the point, no one even thinks that way. No one (see: most people) ever thinks "The only thing that matters is race." People have a number of catagories they base someone's datability off of, one of which, sometimes, is race. Race is not THE factor, it is A factor, among a plethora of factors. For someone people, race matters, but isn't of supreme importance. For others, race is a key factor in physical attraction, and one of a few traits they aren't willing to compromise on. Being fucking picky isn't the same as being racist.

If they based their rejection of someone upon racist logic, then yeah, it's racist. But racist logic isn't "I don't find X race physically attractive, therefore I won't date them", it's "X race is objectively inferior to Y race(s), therefore I will never lower myself to date one of them". Fucking god damn it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No, it isn't. But, more to the point, no one even thinks that way. No one (see: most people) ever thinks "The only thing that matters is race." People have a number of catagories they base someone's datability off of, one of which, sometimes, is race. Race is not THE factor, it is A factor, among a plethora of factors. For someone people, race matters, but isn't of supreme importance. For others, race is a key factor in physical attraction, and one of a few traits they aren't willing to compromise on. Being fucking picky isn't the same as being racist.

If they based their rejection of someone upon racist logic, then yeah, it's racist. But racist logic isn't "I don't find X race physically attractive, therefore I won't date them", it's "X race is objectively inferior to Y race(s), therefore I will never lower myself to date one of them". Fucking god damn it.

No one =/= everyone. While most people don't think that way that doesn't mean there's someone we do not know that thinks that way. We're only discussing America, so our view of the world is very America-centric; other cultures and people may be more prominent in doing this. It doesn't matter.

And yes, being picky over race and not compromising is racist because, and here's the catch, you are putting someone's race as a standard for them to be "good partners"; it's racist logic because it means you will go for someone less attractive because they are your skin color and not for someone who is both attractive and a good partner simply because of their skin color. That is what racist logic is: using race as a value standard.

You just said one upon the other. "I don't find X race physically attractive" is saying "X race is somehow superior to Y race(s)". If your logic was "I find X race attractive, so I incline to date X race" then that means you may consider other races, depending on other factors, but NOT that you're excluding them.

Exclusion isn't the same as a leaning. I have a leaning to date or chase black women, doesn't mean I don't date other races or even my own race. Me having an exclusive taste for black women would be racist and I'd hit it spot on because I am going "if you're not black you can't date me".