No dates? Shoot a bunch of people. Santa Barbara Drive By.

[Dakini]

There was an attempt... he banged on the door of a sorority for a few minutes and nobody let him in (wisely). His plan was to go and shoot the place up. If the women living there had answered the door, there would be a much bigger body count (and probably a lot more women dead).

So because this could have been a bunch of women being killed by a man who's motive is still primarily his insanity, this is a problem about Women Hating(?) and not something else?

No. Because he published a 140 page manifesto in which he said he wanted to put all women into concentration camps and starve most of them to death. In which he advocated the death of the majority of women, because women cannot be trusted to make the "correct" decision of who to have sex with and so forth.

That's what makes it a problem of misogyny.

The fact that the killer was mostly incompetent (he was also planning on luring people into his apartment to kill them, but he only managed to get his roommates) is the only saving grace in this entire affair. Women were the primary targets, but on his big day, just like all the others, they rejected his appeals because to hell with that creep.

[Dakini]

There was an attempt... he banged on the door of a sorority for a few minutes and nobody let him in (wisely). His plan was to go and shoot the place up. If the women living there had answered the door, there would be a much bigger body count (and probably a lot more women dead).

Ah.

Well, considering he posted his plan on YOUTUBE, doesn't surprise me they were warned.

I don't think it was a warning. It's probably a combination of living in a big house and assuming that someone else will get the door and hearing someone knock in an obnoxiously loud/angry way which meant that nobody answered the door. It's possible that someone checked the peephole, but I haven't read anything about that. At least some of the women did hear him knock though.

[Ostroeuropa]

So because this could have been a bunch of women being killed by a man who's motive is still primarily his insanity, this is a problem about Women Hating(?) and not something else?

No. Because he published a 140 page manifesto in which he said he wanted to put all women into concentration camps and starve most of them to death. In which he advocated the death of the majority of women, because women cannot be trusted to make the "correct" decision of who to have sex with and so forth.

That's what makes it a problem of misogyny.

The fact that the killer was mostly incompetent (he was also planning on luring people into his apartment to kill them, but he only managed to get his roommates) is the only saving grace in this entire affair. Women were the primary targets, but on his big day, just like all the others, they rejected his appeals because to hell with that creep.

Gypsies were certainly the primary targets of hitler.
Why, he even said he wanted to kill them in mein kampf. What more do you need?
Hitler was motivated by his hatred of gypsies, that's why he did all those awful things.

This is the level of argument you are advancing.

Did you actually read the entire manifesto, or just the bit about women.

The guy hated way more people than just women.
He hated everyone. He had several parts of his manifesto where he wanted basically everyone to die.

Was he a misogynist?
Yes. Absolutely.
I don't see anyone contesting that.
Was his misogyny a problem?
Sure.
Was his misogyny the only motivating factor?
Fuck no, and I have absolutely no idea how you people can be advancing that kind of rhetoric and argument.
Well, I do have an idea. It's because you have a persecution complex and think the world revolves around vaginas.
It's gynocentrism in action.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

So because this could have been a bunch of women being killed by a man who's motive is still primarily his insanity, this is a problem about Women Hating(?) and not something else?

No. Because he published a 140 page manifesto in which he said he wanted to put all women into concentration camps and starve most of them to death. In which he advocated the death of the majority of women, because women cannot be trusted to make the "correct" decision of who to have sex with and so forth.

That's what makes it a problem of misogyny.

The fact that the killer was mostly incompetent (he was also planning on luring people into his apartment to kill them, but he only managed to get his roommates) is the only saving grace in this entire affair. Women were the primary targets, but on his big day, just like all the others, they rejected his appeals because to hell with that creep.

Also, from what I'm reading about his school years (I'm at year 8 or 9 right now. Dear fucking God. 140 Pages?!) he was trying to get "in" with the cool crowd. He had several complex issues since he was a child; and it's not because he was a deranged individual.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Ok folks, let's tone this down a bit and think more rationally, if possible, for a moment.

It is not 'disgusting' for people to see what they want to see in a situation. It's human nature. Of course those supporting a more feminist mindset are going to see the misogyny as the prime factor. His vitriolic statements make it extremely easy to do so, and it is clear enough that this is a point that his is very fixed on. Clearly, he hated women.

The thing is, he hated a lot of things.

Narcissistic sociopath. He claims to be the 'perfect man'. The 'true alpha male'. He sees everyone else as beneath him, and thus, when they have things he wants and does not, for whatever reason have, they become a target.

His roomates - he didn't like that they were 'loud and played video games all the time'. Rather than do something productive about it, he plots to murder them in their sleep and seems to get off on the idea of doing it.

The car thing. Well, he isn't getting laid, so there's definitely some compensation going on there.

The money thing. He believes he is somehow entitled to a life of wealth and ease, and specifically calls out all those surrounding him who have that as people who need to be destroyed. Again, he obsesses over it. Same as with the sex and all the rest.

"They have what I want, thus I must destroy them." End of. That's his solution to everything. Not 'I can earn it', not 'why can I not get a date', not 'is there something I'm doing wrong'. Nope, just 'I want, kill them'.

The numbers mean little. Had he gotten into the sorority, god forbid, I'm certain it would have been much worse. Opportunity, happenstance, what have you - he was out to create as much pain and suffering as he could before taking himself out.

This idea of separating out the victims for whatever agenda is selfish, and it serves little purpose. He planned this out over several years, he was deliberate in his methods, he knew exactly what he was doing. And he went so far as to let a lot of people know what he was going to do, to further cause pain to others and to let them know they couldn't do anything about it.

Yes, we are lucky it wasn't worse than it was, all things considered. It shouldn't have happened at all, but it did. Given the laws we have in place, saying they 'should have done something the first time' is a hard sell - that said, we've had other situations when overreactions by authorities have caused undue problems as well. It's difficult to way where to draw the line in regards to protection and freedom. Perhaps they should have run a more thorough search - I'm not sure if they had the legal ability to do so based on his ramblings, much as I wish they had.

Until we can fix the problems with the wrong-thinking about what one 'deserves' or is entitled to, until we can work past the base selfishness that these sorts of situations spring from, until we can judge from a simple background check and application form what a person may do in the future, I'm afraid we'll continue to deal with these sorts of tragedies.

There is no excusing it. There is no justifying it. We should not be tearing at each other over it. Nor reducing it to facts and figures. Nor spinning it to our agendas.

Maybe with luck, we can learn from it.

[Ostroeuropa]

No. Because he published a 140 page manifesto in which he said he wanted to put all women into concentration camps and starve most of them to death. In which he advocated the death of the majority of women, because women cannot be trusted to make the "correct" decision of who to have sex with and so forth.

That's what makes it a problem of misogyny.

The fact that the killer was mostly incompetent (he was also planning on luring people into his apartment to kill them, but he only managed to get his roommates) is the only saving grace in this entire affair. Women were the primary targets, but on his big day, just like all the others, they rejected his appeals because to hell with that creep.

Also, from what I'm reading about his school years (I'm at year 8 or 9 right now. Dear fucking God. 140 Pages?!) he was trying to get "in" with the cool crowd. He had several complex issues since he was a child; and it's not because he was a deranged individual.

No no, it's not complex at all.
He just hated women. That's all we need to know. That's what we should focus on, because my ideology.
It's tiring that I have to keep pointing this kind of thing out to people about this subset of feminists.

[Cannot think of a name]

There was an attempt... he banged on the door of a sorority for a few minutes and nobody let him in (wisely). His plan was to go and shoot the place up. If the women living there had answered the door, there would be a much bigger body count (and probably a lot more women dead).

Can I have a source for that?

Holy fucking shit.

[Ostroeuropa]

Ok folks, let's tone this down a bit and think more rationally, if possible, for a moment.

It is not 'disgusting' for people to see what they want to see in a situation. It's human nature. Of course those supporting a more feminist mindset are going to see the misogyny as the prime factor. His vitriolic statements make it extremely easy to do so, and it is clear enough that this is a point that his is very fixed on. Clearly, he hated women.

The thing is, he hated a lot of things.

Narcissistic sociopath. He claims to be the 'perfect man'. The 'true alpha male'. He sees everyone else as beneath him, and thus, when they have things he wants and does not, for whatever reason have, they become a target.

His roomates - he didn't like that they were 'loud and played video games all the time'. Rather than do something productive about it, he plots to murder them in their sleep and seems to get off on the idea of doing it.

The car thing. Well, he isn't getting laid, so there's definitely some compensation going on there.

The money thing. He believes he is somehow entitled to a life of wealth and ease, and specifically calls out all those surrounding him who have that as people who need to be destroyed. Again, he obsesses over it. Same as with the sex and all the rest.

"They have what I want, thus I must destroy them." End of. That's his solution to everything. Not 'I can earn it', not 'why can I not get a date', not 'is there something I'm doing wrong'. Nope, just 'I want, kill them'.

The numbers mean little. Had he gotten into the sorority, god forbid, I'm certain it would have been much worse. Opportunity, happenstance, what have you - he was out to create as much pain and suffering as he could before taking himself out.

This idea of separating out the victims for whatever agenda is selfish, and it serves little purpose. He planned this out over several years, he was deliberate in his methods, he knew exactly what he was doing. And he went so far as to let a lot of people know what he was going to do, to further cause pain to others and to let them know they couldn't do anything about it.

Yes, we are lucky it wasn't worse than it was, all things considered. It shouldn't have happened at all, but it did. Given the laws we have in place, saying they 'should have done something the first time' is a hard sell - that said, we've had other situations when overreactions by authorities have caused undue problems as well. It's difficult to way where to draw the line in regards to protection and freedom. Perhaps they should have run a more thorough search - I'm not sure if they had the legal ability to do so based on his ramblings, much as I wish they had.

Until we can fix the problems with the wrong-thinking about what one 'deserves' or is entitled to, until we can work past the base selfishness that these sorts of situations spring from, until we can judge from a simple background check and application form what a person may do in the future, I'm afraid we'll continue to deal with these sorts of tragedies.

There is no excusing it. There is no justifying it. We should not be tearing at each other over it. Nor reducing it to facts and figures. Nor spinning it to our agendas.

Maybe with luck, we can learn from it.

I can understand this position, indeed, it's basically my position.
If you think disgusting is a little strong for attempting to hijack it for one agenda, I won't post it further since there are people who think it's a little strong, and it can be phrased more neutrally.

[Ostroeuropa]

Can I have a source for that?

Holy fucking shit.

Asking for sources for claims that support a feminist narrative is reprehensible behavior, apparently.
Where is the source that he banged on the soroity door.
I'm not denying it happened, it's just that i'm frankly more busy reading his manifesto and looking up his mental state.

[Des-Bal]

Asking for sources for claims that support a feminist narrative is reprehensible behavior, apparently.
Where is the source that he banged on the soroity door.
I'm not denying it happened, it's just that i'm frankly more busy reading his manifesto and looking up his mental state.

That would be in the OP.

[Ostroeuropa]

Asking for sources for claims that support a feminist narrative is reprehensible behavior, apparently.
Where is the source that he banged on the soroity door.
I'm not denying it happened, it's just that i'm frankly more busy reading his manifesto and looking up his mental state.

That would be in the OP.

Ok. Got it. (Skim) Read it. Fine. The problem is, that narrative ignores that the spree started when he stabbed three males to death inside his own home.
THEN he went to the sorority house.

My bet would be he was working down a checklist, and if he'd got into the sorority house and shot them all, he'd have next decided to go murder his family, or some other types of people he had a grievance with.

When he was denied entry to the sorority house, he broke from the plan and just started indiscriminately killing people.

To claim that his attempt to enter the sorority house demonstrates the motive for his attack is farfetched, given everything we know about the guy.
His motive was complex, and it involved hatred of basically everybody.

Yeh, i'm not reading the OP sources. I said as much last night. I'm researching all over the place on this thing.

[Geilinor]

Also, from what I'm reading about his school years (I'm at year 8 or 9 right now. Dear fucking God. 140 Pages?!) he was trying to get "in" with the cool crowd. He had several complex issues since he was a child; and it's not because he was a deranged individual.

No no, it's not complex at all.
He just hated women. That's all we need to know. That's what we should focus on, because my ideology.
It's tiring that I have to keep pointing this kind of thing out to people about this subset of feminists.

We're focusing on his misogyny because this case involves the killing of women. If he killed someone else, we would be focusing on that. There's no feminist conspiracy, just what is pertinent to the case and what it is not.

[Cannot think of a name]

Yeh, i'm not reading the OP sources. I said as much last night. I'm researching all over the place on this thing.

And yet, somehow still missed the sorority thing. Awesome. Great research. Lends a lot of credence to your devil's advocacy. We should totally take you seriously.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

No no, it's not complex at all.
He just hated women. That's all we need to know. That's what we should focus on, because my ideology.
It's tiring that I have to keep pointing this kind of thing out to people about this subset of feminists.

We're focusing on his misogyny because this case involves the killing of women. If he killed someone else, we would be focusing on that.

Um, Geilinor - he did. He killed his roomates and other guys as well. You may want to read up on a few things.

[Ostroeuropa]

No no, it's not complex at all.
He just hated women. That's all we need to know. That's what we should focus on, because my ideology.
It's tiring that I have to keep pointing this kind of thing out to people about this subset of feminists.

We're focusing on his misogyny because this case involves the killing of women. If he killed someone else, we would be focusing on that.

Two of the seven deaths were women. Five were men.
I've pointed that out to show why this line of logic simply doesn't work.

In fact, the first three victims were males who he stabbed to death inside his own house.

[Dakini]

Can I have a source for that?

Holy fucking shit.

What's worse than the fact that this has already been posted in the thread is that he knows he's on my ignore list too.

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeh, i'm not reading the OP sources. I said as much last night. I'm researching all over the place on this thing.

And yet, somehow still missed the sorority thing. Awesome. Great research. Lends a lot of credence to your devil's advocacy. We should totally take you seriously.

I've spent most of my time reading his manifesto, as I said.
I didn't even know there were male victims until very recently when I looked up the victim list. (Check my posts at the beginning of the thread.)
I know very little about the events of the actual attack, and so do many people. Now I know.

[Ostroeuropa]

Holy fucking shit.

What's worse than the fact that this has already been posted in the thread is that he knows he's on my ignore list too.

Des-bal, who is hardly an ally of yours, already pointed me to the source, and I followed it.
When I ask for a source, i'm not just asking the claimant. I'm asking anyone who can provide one.

And, as I point out about your post on this, your narrative is faulty for the reason that the spree started in his house where he killed three males.
THEN he went to the sorority house.

In murder sprees like this we often see people moving down a checklist in this manner. The shotgunner who ran around Britain a while back did something similar.
I find it more likely that the attack was motivated by his hatred of basically everybody.
His attack on the sorority? Yeh. Motivated by his hatred of women.
But the murder spree's motivations were way, way more complex than you are making out.

When he couldn't check off "Kill women" from his list, he decided to break from the plan and just start indiscriminantly murdering people.

[Dakini]

Yeh, i'm not reading the OP sources. I said as much last night. I'm researching all over the place on this thing.

And yet, somehow still missed the sorority thing. Awesome. Great research. Lends a lot of credence to your devil's advocacy. We should totally take you seriously.

I'm not sure what's supposed to be wrong with your OP and its sources either. I thought they're perfectly legit.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Hey folks, a friendly reminder to cut the personal attacks. I can't make rulings on it, but others can, and will, if they don't stop. Ignore lists are something that are not to be waved about as a flag - it defeats the purpose. And also isn't being utilized correctly if you're quoting one another and responding to them. It's gloating, and it isn't pretty. So please.

Argument, not player. You know the score.

[Dakini]

Hey folks, a friendly reminder to cut the personal attacks. I can't make rulings on it, but others can, and will, if they don't stop. Ignore lists are something that are not to be waved about as a flag - it defeats the purpose. And also isn't being utilized correctly if you're quoting one another and responding to them. It's gloating, and it isn't pretty. So please.

Argument, not player. You know the score.

...I wasn't gloating. I was pointing out that I told Ostro that he was going on my ignore list when I put him on it and I don't know why he's replying to me as though I'm going to see his posts.

edit: Basically, I don't know why he's replied to my post as though I was going to see it and reply. I would hate for him to waste his time writing long-winded replied to my posts that I'm not going to read in the future.

[Ostroeuropa]

Hey folks, a friendly reminder to cut the personal attacks. I can't make rulings on it, but others can, and will, if they don't stop. Ignore lists are something that are not to be waved about as a flag - it defeats the purpose. And also isn't being utilized correctly if you're quoting one another and responding to them. It's gloating, and it isn't pretty. So please.

Argument, not player. You know the score.

...I wasn't gloating. I was pointing out that I told Ostro that he was going on my ignore list when I put him on it and I don't know why he's replying to me as though I'm going to see his posts.

Well, that's because i'm replying to you as though others are going to see me reply. Which they are. Such as des-bal. It's fairly common of people to do.
In fact, I havn't addressed a question or such to you specifically, precisely because I know you can't/won't respond.
Indeed, this post is an example of that. I'm explaining to everyone else why i'm responding to you.

[Condunum]

Actually, you know what? Yes.

I own knifes. Big ones. A 10 inch survival knife is not something that should be handled by anyone, because you will lob a finger off. Or someone else's.

The same for cars? As far as I am aware, there is no law preventing those who are diagnosed with a mental illness from getting a drivers license.

If it's a rage disorder, maybe.

[Grenartia]

Also, the reason people are claiming he's an MRA is because he's spouting their bullshit. You don't have to subscribe to a group's youtube channels to follow their thinking. I'm a Christian, yet I'm not subscribed on Youtube to any Christian channels. I'm a socialist, yet I'm not subscribed to any socialist channels. I'm pro-LGBT equality, yet I'm not subscribed to any LGBT channels.

3. Citation for what's he's spouting being MRA bullshit.
Go ahead.
2. Which MRA site or reddit or subforum or whatever has ever endorsed his positions.

1. You think a PUA is an MRA.
4. That's because you have your ideological blinders on.
You think anyone who hates women is an MRA. That's a problem.

I'm going to address these in the order they grabbed my attention.

1. Except he's not a PUA. He joined an anti-PUA site. Also, strawman, because I never said he was a PUA.

2. They don't have to endorse his actions in order for him to agree with their rhetoric.

3. He was a total Red Piller. His very words indicate that.

4. Except I don't. Also, like you, for all your ranting about "feminist propaganda", don't have yours on?

There was an attempt... he banged on the door of a sorority for a few minutes and nobody let him in (wisely). His plan was to go and shoot the place up. If the women living there had answered the door, there would be a much bigger body count (and probably a lot more women dead).

Can I have a source for that?

Boom.

No. Because he published a 140 page manifesto in which he said he wanted to put all women into concentration camps and starve most of them to death. In which he advocated the death of the majority of women, because women cannot be trusted to make the "correct" decision of who to have sex with and so forth.

That's what makes it a problem of misogyny.

The fact that the killer was mostly incompetent (he was also planning on luring people into his apartment to kill them, but he only managed to get his roommates) is the only saving grace in this entire affair. Women were the primary targets, but on his big day, just like all the others, they rejected his appeals because to hell with that creep.

Gypsies were certainly the primary targets of hitler.
Why, he even said he wanted to kill them in mein kampf. What more do you need?
Hitler was motivated by his hatred of gypsies, that's why he did all those awful things.

This is the level of argument you are advancing.

Did you actually read the entire manifesto, or just the bit about women.

The guy hated way more people than just women.
He hated everyone. He had several parts of his manifesto where he wanted basically everyone to die.

Was he a misogynist?
Yes. Absolutely.
I don't see anyone contesting that.
Was his misogyny a problem?
Sure.
Was his misogyny the only motivating factor?
1. Fuck no, and I have absolutely no idea how you people can be advancing that kind of rhetoric and argument.
Well, I do have an idea. It's because you have a persecution complex and think the world revolves around vaginas.
2. It's gynocentrism in action.

1. Except, you know, the vast majority of his motivation was misogyny.

2. Might wanna take off your ideological blinders. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Holy fucking shit.

Asking for sources for claims that support a 1. feminist narrative is 2. reprehensible behavior, apparently.
3. Where is the source that he banged on the soroity door.
I'm not denying it happened, it's just that i'm frankly more busy reading his manifesto and looking up his mental state.

1. Removeth thine ideological blinders.

2. No, its more shock that as much as you seem to have delved into this story, that you actually haven't seen a news article or TV report stating that fact.

3. See above.

[Ostroeuropa]

3. Citation for what's he's spouting being MRA bullshit.
Go ahead.
2. Which MRA site or reddit or subforum or whatever has ever endorsed his positions.

1. You think a PUA is an MRA.
4. That's because you have your ideological blinders on.
You think anyone who hates women is an MRA. That's a problem.

I'm going to address these in the order they grabbed my attention.

1. Except he's not a PUA. He joined an anti-PUA site. Also, strawman, because I never said he was a PUA.

2. They don't have to endorse his actions in order for him to agree with their rhetoric.

3. He was a total Red Piller. His very words indicate that.

4. Except I don't. Also, like you, for all your ranting about "feminist propaganda", don't have yours on?

Can I have a source for that?

Boom.

Gypsies were certainly the primary targets of hitler.
Why, he even said he wanted to kill them in mein kampf. What more do you need?
Hitler was motivated by his hatred of gypsies, that's why he did all those awful things.

This is the level of argument you are advancing.

Did you actually read the entire manifesto, or just the bit about women.

The guy hated way more people than just women.
He hated everyone. He had several parts of his manifesto where he wanted basically everyone to die.

Was he a misogynist?
Yes. Absolutely.
I don't see anyone contesting that.
Was his misogyny a problem?
Sure.
Was his misogyny the only motivating factor?
1. Fuck no, and I have absolutely no idea how you people can be advancing that kind of rhetoric and argument.
Well, I do have an idea. It's because you have a persecution complex and think the world revolves around vaginas.
2. It's gynocentrism in action.

1. Except, you know, the vast majority of his motivation was misogyny.

2. Might wanna take off your ideological blinders. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Asking for sources for claims that support a 1. feminist narrative is 2. reprehensible behavior, apparently.
3. Where is the source that he banged on the soroity door.
I'm not denying it happened, it's just that i'm frankly more busy reading his manifesto and looking up his mental state.

1. Removeth thine ideological blinders.

2. No, its more shock that as much as you seem to have delved into this story, that you actually haven't seen a news article or TV report stating that fact.

3. See above.

Red pill is not MRA.

Also this pretty much addresses the rest of your post.

What's worse than the fact that this has already been posted in the thread is that he knows he's on my ignore list too.

Des-bal, who is hardly an ally of yours, already pointed me to the source, and I followed it.
When I ask for a source, i'm not just asking the claimant. I'm asking anyone who can provide one.

And, as I point out about your post on this, your narrative is faulty for the reason that the spree started in his house where he killed three males.
THEN he went to the sorority house.

In murder sprees like this we often see people moving down a checklist in this manner. The shotgunner who ran around Britain a while back did something similar.
I find it more likely that the attack was motivated by his hatred of basically everybody.
His attack on the sorority? Yeh. Motivated by his hatred of women.
But the murder spree's motivations were way, way more complex than you are making out.

When he couldn't check off "Kill women" from his list, he decided to break from the plan and just start indiscriminantly murdering people.

So yeh. That bit about "The vast majority of his motivation"?
Doesn't hold up under any scrutiny.
What things is my ideology blinding me to. Go ahead. You can point out which parts i'm ignoring to further a narrative if you like, and i'll stop.
I hadn't delved into the actual night of the attack. I looked up his motivations and the victim list first. THEN when pointed to a record of the actual sequence of events, I read it.
THEN I noted that it absolutely didn't fit with what you people are claiming.

You decided that his hatred of women provoked him into a murder spree.
That isn't the case.
His hatred of women provoked him into including them on a list of victims.
You are acting like women are being singled out, when the evidence doesn't back that at all.
The motivation for his spree wasn't misogyny. It's typical of this subset of feminism to act like this.

"We're a victim of this problem. Therefore, we shall act like we are the only victim and it's all about us."

You've decided that because I disagree with you i'm wearing ideological blinders. I'm not. I'm actually looking at all the evidence and coming to a conclusion.
How do you come to your conclusion that this spree was provoked by a hatred of women, given that he hated basically everyone, and began his spree by murdering three males inside his home, THEN went to the sorority house.

If you want to say his attempt to enter the sorority house was motivated by his hatred of women, yes. That's true.
But that isn't what you people are saying.