UKIP 'Diversity Carnival' Croydon - A total disaster?

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Except a majority of people want a referendum on the EU.

A majority of people want the death penalty back.

Saying that we should have something just because the majority wants it is stupid.

Except we live in a democracy and those people shape the economic, social, and political landscape.

A government should be beholden to the people. Even if the people want things that you, in the minority, don't want.

The only exception to this is the removal of the right to vote or any impasses on that right.

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Yeah it's really stupid to express a democratic opinion on public policy.

Yes it really is.

The public have, throughout history, shown that they aren't to be trusted. They are frequently swayed by the populist rhetoric of extremists - both right and left - why do you think the British Union of Fascists were such a serious threat to our democracy?

The system we have in this country for general elections very much caters to the idea that extremists shouldn't get a fair hearing. This is a Good Thing^TM.

Ask anyone on the street what the EU is doing for them and most of them wouldn't be able to tell you. Why? Because they aren't informed about it. Why should uninformed ignorant people have a say on membership of the EU? Screaming because DEMOCRACY isn't a coherent argument and it's an idea that politicians of all parties need to confront.

Just because something is democratic, it does not mean it is good.

Wouldn't what you just said be an extremist position? Taking away the rights of the public to vote as they please? Who are you to say what the requirement for informed is? Should they have to take a test? Should we limit voting to those who meet a requirement to vote?

You seem awefully friendly to the idea of removing peoples right to vote if they disagree with you.

[Britannic Realms]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1934
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_A ... ndum,_1938
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ref ... tion,_1961

i just find "b-b-but several million!" to be a bit, uh, silly

e: i went there

Ha Ha Ha. They've trying that crap for weeks. Do try and keep up. It isn't working. Racism, swivel eyed. Look at the polls son.

Just because UKIP is popular doesn't make it any less of a fucking horrendous party.

[Tel]

So basically a bunch of social justice warriors ruin an event. I'm no fan of UKIP, but the constant braying that they are racist simply doesn't hold water.

Maybe they ain't racist, maybe they are, but it doesn't take a genius to know that blaming floods on same-sex marriage is homophobic as fuck. Homophobia is just as serious a crime as racism; frankly, homophobia matters even more than racism, since homophobes actively work to deny people rights, while racists just glare at black people behind their backs.

Well-said.

[Densaner]

Ha Ha Ha. They've trying that crap for weeks. Do try and keep up. It isn't working. Racism, swivel eyed. Look at the polls son.

Just because UKIP is popular doesn't make it any less of a fucking horrendous party.

Yeah. You're entitled to your opinion. Just don't attempt to state it as being a proven fact. Cheers.

[Alyakia]

A majority of people want the death penalty back.

Saying that we should have something just because the majority wants it is stupid.

Except we live in a democracy and those people shape the economic, social, and political landscape.

A government should be beholden to the people. Even if the people want things that you, in the minority, don't want.

The only exception to this is the removal of the right to vote or any impasses on that right.

of course, it's a lot easier to say this when you think the government should actively decide who the people are, isn't it?

[Densaner]

Yeah it's really stupid to express a democratic opinion on public policy.

Yes it really is.

The public have, throughout history, shown that they aren't to be trusted. They are frequently swayed by the populist rhetoric of extremists - both right and left - why do you think the British Union of Fascists were such a serious threat to our democracy?

The system we have in this country for general elections very much caters to the idea that extremists shouldn't get a fair hearing. This is a Good Thing^TM.

Ask anyone on the street what the EU is doing for them and most of them wouldn't be able to tell you. Why? Because they aren't informed about it. Why should uninformed ignorant people have a say on membership of the EU? Screaming because DEMOCRACY isn't a coherent argument and it's an idea that politicians of all parties need to confront.

Just because something is democratic, it does not mean it is good.

Yeah people are great so long as they agree with you and vote accordingly.

[Densaner]

Except we live in a democracy and those people shape the economic, social, and political landscape.

A government should be beholden to the people. Even if the people want things that you, in the minority, don't want.

The only exception to this is the removal of the right to vote or any impasses on that right.

of course, it's a lot easier to say this when you think the government should actively decide who the people are, isn't it?

They do that already. Ever hear of immigration, asylum and nationality laws? Most countries have them y'know...

[Grave_n_idle]

Ha Ha Ha. They've trying that crap for weeks. Do try and keep up. It isn't working. Racism, swivel eyed. Look at the polls son.

Just because UKIP is popular doesn't make it any less of a fucking horrendous party.

And one has to remember that both UKIP and BNP have made an effort to show that - while they are fighting over the same voters - there are 'big differences' (as they claim) between the two. And if the UKIP and the friggin' British Nationalist Party are having to make an issue of how they aren't basically both the same thing - they are basically the same thing.

[The UK in Exile]

of course, it's a lot easier to say this when you think the government should actively decide who the people are, isn't it?

They do that already. Ever hear of immigration, asylum and nationality laws? Most countries have them y'know...

and one party in particular is campaigning for more of them.

[Geilinor]

Just because UKIP is popular doesn't make it any less of a fucking horrendous party.

And one has to remember that both UKIP and BNP have made an effort to show that - while they are fighting over the same voters - there are 'big differences' (as they claim) between the two. And if the UKIP and the friggin' British Nationalist Party are having to make an issue of how they aren't basically both the same thing - they are basically the same thing.

UKIP and BNP just have slightly different rhetoric on the surface. UKIP seems to focus more on leaving the EU than immigration, while BNP emphasizes race more.

[Olivaero]

Just because UKIP is popular doesn't make it any less of a fucking horrendous party.

And one has to remember that both UKIP and BNP have made an effort to show that - while they are fighting over the same voters - there are 'big differences' (as they claim) between the two. And if the UKIP and the friggin' British Nationalist Party are having to make an issue of how they aren't basically both the same thing - they are basically the same thing.

Well, On the issue everyone knows them for they are both the same but Economically even though UKIP seems recently quite reluctant to talk economics they are miles apart, UKIP taking generally the more thatcherite view and the BNP being overtly leftist. Now I'm not saying they are literal nazis but it's pretty clear who the BNP Model themselves similarly too. UKIP can been seen as the Tory party that once was and the BNP as a national "socialist" party.

[Densaner]

They do that already. Ever hear of immigration, asylum and nationality laws? Most countries have them y'know...

and one party in particular is campaigning for more of them.

Yeah and more power to them...

[The UK in Exile]

and one party in particular is campaigning for more of them.

Yeah and more power to them...

Well then his point stands. You don't really believe in Government by the People if your stance is that certain folk aren't really people.

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Except we live in a democracy and those people shape the economic, social, and political landscape.

A government should be beholden to the people. Even if the people want things that you, in the minority, don't want.

The only exception to this is the removal of the right to vote or any impasses on that right.

of course, it's a lot easier to say this when you think the government should actively decide who the people are, isn't it?

Those who have citizenship have the right to vote. Those who do not, do not. Immigrants from other countries do not have voting rights until naturalized. If the people vote to make immigration harder, than the government should make it harder to receive citizenship.

[Alyakia]

of course, it's a lot easier to say this when you think the government should actively decide who the people are, isn't it?

They do that already. Ever hear of immigration, asylum and nationality laws? Most countries have them y'know...

i don't think we've flat out declared that we are a white christian state yet, or a jewish state as the case may be.

of course, it's a lot easier to say this when you think the government should actively decide who the people are, isn't it?

Those who have citizenship have the right to vote. Those who do not, do not. Immigrants from other countries do not have voting rights until naturalized. If the people vote to make immigration harder, than the government should make it harder to receive citizenship.

it depends on which election they're voting in really. i'd say i suppose commonwealth and EU citizens aren't something you need to worry about but i guess we are technically in a UK thread.

and where do you place the limits on this, exactly? i don't think you'd be all that comfortable if the people started voting away the rights of minorities in general.

[Densaner]

Yeah and more power to them...

Well then his point stands. You don't really believe in Government by the People if your stance is that certain folk aren't really people.

Government by the people of that particular country, sure. I believe that any nation has the right to decide who can live within its borders and call themselves a citizen. We'll agree to differ...

[Aushanit]

Eh I never got why UKIP was so popular, my guess is just their the only true Euroskeptic party that can put up some sort of force in the Parliament and are a Euroskeptics alternative to the conservatives. But anyway I couldn't give a shit about the diversity fair just seems like bad PR.

[Densaner]

They do that already. Ever hear of immigration, asylum and nationality laws? Most countries have them y'know...

i don't think we've flat out declared that we are a white christian state yet, or a jewish state as the case may be.

What's race or religion got to do with it? If a government decides a particular person is not fit for citizenship then what's wrong with that? Try emigrating to such repressive regimes as Australia or Canada and then you'll see real control of immigration.

[Geilinor]

i don't think we've flat out declared that we are a white christian state yet, or a jewish state as the case may be.

What's race or religion got to do with it? If a government decides a particular person is not fit for citizenship then what's wrong with that? Try emigrating to such repressive regimes as Australia or Canada and then you'll see real control of immigration.

So why is the UK 42nd for immigration per capita? Australia and Canada are in the top 15. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Migration/Net-migration/Per-capita

[Alyakia]

i don't think we've flat out declared that we are a white christian state yet, or a jewish state as the case may be.

What's race or religion got to do with it? If a government decides a particular person is not fit for citizenship then what's wrong with that? Try emigrating to such repressive regimes as Australia or Canada and then you'll see real control of immigration.

you've clearly missed the reference and i'm not sure it's time-efficient to go over it with you.

[Densaner]

What's race or religion got to do with it? If a government decides a particular person is not fit for citizenship then what's wrong with that? Try emigrating to such repressive regimes as Australia or Canada and then you'll see real control of immigration.

So why is the UK 42nd for immigration per capita? Australia and Canada are in the top 15. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Migration/Net-migration/Per-capita

Then explain how the foreign born population of the UK has doubled as a proportion of the general population over the last 20 years? Lies, damned lies...

[Alyakia]

So why is the UK 42nd for immigration per capita? Australia and Canada are in the top 15. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Migration/Net-migration/Per-capita

Then explain how the foreign born population of the UK has doubled as a proportion of the general population over the last 20 years? Lies, damned lies...

because of people like nigel farages wife?

[Kelinfort]

Just because UKIP is popular doesn't make it any less of a fucking horrendous party.

Yeah. You're entitled to your opinion. Just don't attempt to state it as being a proven fact. Cheers.

UKIP is essentially the British equilvalent to the Republican Party, specifically aspects of the Tea Party. Yikes.

[Densaner]

Then explain how the foreign born population of the UK has doubled as a proportion of the general population over the last 20 years? Lies, damned lies...

because of people like nigel farages wife?

Oh yes. Nigel and his wife. Nick Robinson tried that one as I recall...