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China, Taiwan, HK and "Asian crisis"

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue May 20, 2014 5:21 pm

Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:Taiwan and Hong Kong are parts of China. The only reason they are not under Chinese control is due to the imperialist actions of tyrants such as Thatcher. They must rejoin China and stop their terrorist actions

Lol someone doesn't know history.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue May 20, 2014 5:22 pm

NERVUN wrote:
Snefaldia wrote:That final point is what's really dangerous; in the Senkaku issue China is claiming Ming Dynasty maps as proof the area is Chinese territory (among other documents, but the map is the basis).

A 500 year old map, for a modern geopolitical dispute. It would be the same as the Vatican awarding parts of Venezuela to Brazil based on a map from 1498, or Germany claiming northern Poland because Prussia.

I think the bullishness from China is caused by internal weakness and masked political instability; i.e. search for outer enemies while cracking down on internal ones.

That and also, China feels it is strong again. It has a long memory and the notion of weak China being forced to kowtow to nations that previously it held the upper hand over has been lovingly passed down as a national obsession.

So basically we have a Treaty of Versailles situation?
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Tue May 20, 2014 5:22 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:Taiwan and Hong Kong are parts of China. The only reason they are not under Chinese control is due to the imperialist actions of tyrants such as Thatcher. They must rejoin China and stop their terrorist actions

Lol someone doesn't know history.


Hong Kong and Macau are going to be under full Chinese control by 2050: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue May 20, 2014 5:42 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Lol someone doesn't know history.


Hong Kong and Macau are going to be under full Chinese control by 2050: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA

Sorry can't watch Youtube here.
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Estado Paulista
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Postby Estado Paulista » Tue May 20, 2014 5:50 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Lol someone doesn't know history.


Hong Kong and Macau are going to be under full Chinese control by 2050: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA


*shivers*
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Tue May 20, 2014 5:50 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Hong Kong and Macau are going to be under full Chinese control by 2050: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA

Sorry can't watch Youtube here.


Portugal & UK show up in China. Through bribery and gun diplomacy they take control of Macau and Hong Kong. Fast forward to the late nineteenth century, and you see the Portugal and the UK saying that they can into 99 year lease. 1990s roll around, the 99 year lease expires, Portugal claims that lease was infinite, Chinese Army says "you're shitting me" and Portugal shits pants and backs down. These countries are now going to be integrated with China, but China promises that they'll stay "independent" for 50 more years, as long as they don't conduct foreign policy, and mess with China in any way, shape or form. So it's de facto control with lots of local autonomy. 50 year lease will expire in 2040s, and then what?
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Snefaldia
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Postby Snefaldia » Tue May 20, 2014 6:06 pm

The "and then what" moment is already happening in Hong Kong, there is serious doubt that Beijing is going to allow universal suffrage in 2017, like they promised during handover. The Party does not want people to see that democracy can work in Asia, let alone an area controlled de facto by the Party.
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Snefaldia
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Postby Snefaldia » Tue May 20, 2014 6:15 pm

As a side note, I have to carry my passport with me today because the streets in Shanghai are swarming with police for the CICA meeting while Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, Nursultan Nazarbayev, and Hassan Rouhani are in town, because I'm a foreigner.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Tue May 20, 2014 6:45 pm

Genivaria wrote:
NERVUN wrote:That and also, China feels it is strong again. It has a long memory and the notion of weak China being forced to kowtow to nations that previously it held the upper hand over has been lovingly passed down as a national obsession.

So basically we have a Treaty of Versailles situation?

In a way. To be honest, the actions of many countries in China during the age of imperialism and through WWII are atrocious. China also had to deal with the internal disasters of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, so for a very long stretch of time, a very proud nation with a VERY long history of dominating the region was humbled.

That said, a lot of these claims are downright ridiculous.
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Shie
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Postby Shie » Tue May 20, 2014 7:44 pm

China deserves new territories. It's better for their to be one nation as a region, less bickering, less turmoil. It will also even out the population's gender ratio and that's a way to increase the life quality of everyone there. The chinese government is strong too, their expansion would be good.

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Berdanvia
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Postby Berdanvia » Tue May 20, 2014 8:08 pm

God damn commies, China needs to back off and let Hong Kong Tibet and Taiwan become independent countries.

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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Tue May 20, 2014 8:57 pm

Berdanvia wrote:God damn commies, China needs to back off and let Hong Kong Tibet and Taiwan become independent countries.

1) China is not really commie anymore.
2) China does not need to let them become independent.
3) If that actually happens, chances are China will either implode or have an even more populist and aggressive government installed by thepeople as the current “moderate" government failed to protect the one thing that almost all Chinese agrees to be important for the nation as a whole.
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Nationes Pii Redivivi
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Tue May 20, 2014 8:59 pm

He also pissed off the GMD supporters back in Taiwan.

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Nationes Pii Redivivi
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Tue May 20, 2014 9:03 pm

Berdanvia wrote:God damn commies, China needs to back off and let Hong Kong Tibet and Taiwan become independent countries.


The Republic of China is already an independent country, which currently is run by the GMD, which claims more Territory for China than the current Communist bandits on the mainland.

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Corumm
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Postby Corumm » Tue May 20, 2014 10:40 pm

PRC is best china

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Brutland and Norden
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Wed May 21, 2014 2:44 am

Genivaria wrote:So basically we have a Treaty of Versailles situation?

It's not the same. Many of the countries China had disputes with weren't really responsible for China's "humiliation" (except Japan). Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., were not the ones who "humiliated" China. These countries, were, in fact, were "humiliated" with China during the age of colonialism and imperialism. China, if its interest is really a peaceful rise to power and if it is really serious in correcting the "humiliation" the colonial powers did in Asia, then should band together with its fellow Asian nations and not push them around. Right now, to smaller Asian nations, China is behaving like the new colonialist, an imperial power wannabe, "humiliating" smaller nations for their small possessions or to get what it wants. China is doing exactly what the West did to China during the 19th century. It smacks of hypocrisy on the part of the Chinese government to speak of these "humiliations" when it is doing the same things to its neighbors.

*small is relative. :P
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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Wed May 21, 2014 5:25 am

Brutland and Norden wrote:
Genivaria wrote:So basically we have a Treaty of Versailles situation?

It's not the same. Many of the countries China had disputes with weren't really responsible for China's "humiliation" (except Japan). Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., were not the ones who "humiliated" China. These countries, were, in fact, were "humiliated" with China during the age of colonialism and imperialism. China, if its interest is really a peaceful rise to power and if it is really serious in correcting the "humiliation" the colonial powers did in Asia, then should band together with its fellow Asian nations and not push them around. Right now, to smaller Asian nations, China is behaving like the new colonialist, an imperial power wannabe, "humiliating" smaller nations for their small possessions or to get what it wants. China is doing exactly what the West did to China during the 19th century. It smacks of hypocrisy on the part of the Chinese government to speak of these "humiliations" when it is doing the same things to its neighbors.

*small is relative. :P

It is more because China's idea of "banding together" involves all banding countries submitting to China's authority. It is partly a relic of China's Imperial past, and partly because we are pretty rooted in the "divided we fall" mentality. Incidentally, this was also the same plan Japan had (banding east Asia together under the banner of the Emperor) before the military decided to war everyone.
Call me Reno.
14:54:02 <Lykens> Explain your definition of Reno.

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03:08 <Democratic Koyro> NSG senate is a glaring example of why no one in NSG should ever have a position of authority
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed May 21, 2014 11:35 am

Tuthina wrote:
Brutland and Norden wrote:It's not the same. Many of the countries China had disputes with weren't really responsible for China's "humiliation" (except Japan). Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., were not the ones who "humiliated" China. These countries, were, in fact, were "humiliated" with China during the age of colonialism and imperialism. China, if its interest is really a peaceful rise to power and if it is really serious in correcting the "humiliation" the colonial powers did in Asia, then should band together with its fellow Asian nations and not push them around. Right now, to smaller Asian nations, China is behaving like the new colonialist, an imperial power wannabe, "humiliating" smaller nations for their small possessions or to get what it wants. China is doing exactly what the West did to China during the 19th century. It smacks of hypocrisy on the part of the Chinese government to speak of these "humiliations" when it is doing the same things to its neighbors.

*small is relative. :P

It is more because China's idea of "banding together" involves all banding countries submitting to China's authority. It is partly a relic of China's Imperial past, and partly because we are pretty rooted in the "divided we fall" mentality. Incidentally, this was also the same plan Japan had (banding east Asia together under the banner of the Emperor) before the military decided to war everyone.

Which is why the US should encourage a coalition between democratic regimes in East Asia and the Pacific in response to China's aggression.
Which is something that's already being attempted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy
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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Wed May 21, 2014 12:13 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Tuthina wrote:It is more because China's idea of "banding together" involves all banding countries submitting to China's authority. It is partly a relic of China's Imperial past, and partly because we are pretty rooted in the "divided we fall" mentality. Incidentally, this was also the same plan Japan had (banding east Asia together under the banner of the Emperor) before the military decided to war everyone.

Which is why the US should encourage a coalition between democratic regimes in East Asia and the Pacific in response to China's aggression.
Which is something that's already being attempted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy


The problem with that is that even some US allies want better ties to China. Found this article on Israel which says that Israel seems to be trying to get closer to China and India. Seems they do not want to rely too heavily on the US.

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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Thu May 22, 2014 4:43 am

Genivaria wrote:
Tuthina wrote:It is more because China's idea of "banding together" involves all banding countries submitting to China's authority. It is partly a relic of China's Imperial past, and partly because we are pretty rooted in the "divided we fall" mentality. Incidentally, this was also the same plan Japan had (banding east Asia together under the banner of the Emperor) before the military decided to war everyone.

Which is why the US should encourage a coalition between democratic regimes in East Asia and the Pacific in response to China's aggression.
Which is something that's already being attempted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy

That would be rather difficult, since despite half of east Asia hating China for various reasons, their economies are deeply tied with China (as is the whole world for that matter), so a hostile coalition would probably end up screwing up everyone. Say what you will about politicians, but most of them are not morons, and tanking the economy tend not to get one re-elected.
Call me Reno.
14:54:02 <Lykens> Explain your definition of Reno.

11:47 <Swilatia> Good god, copy+paste is no way to build a country!

03:08 <Democratic Koyro> NSG senate is a glaring example of why no one in NSG should ever have a position of authority
Rated as Class A: Environmental Utopia by Namor People's Rating Department
Rated as Human Rights Haven (7/10) by Namor People's Rating Department
Rated as Partially Free (4/10) by Namor People's Rating Department
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Kaylea
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Postby Kaylea » Thu May 22, 2014 5:45 am

I think they should all unite and become Greater China through one country, two systems and let regions like Tibet, HK, Taiwan, Xinjiang, etc all become special autonomous regions. Pan-sinoism. It's all the West's fault that there is escalating tensions in the South China Sea region. It arms anyone belligerent to China and encourages suspicion as part of it's policy of containment. What occurs between China and other countries is not for others to get involved in.

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Brutland and Norden
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Thu May 22, 2014 6:14 am

Tuthina wrote:It is more because China's idea of "banding together" involves all banding countries submitting to China's authority. It is partly a relic of China's Imperial past, and partly because we are pretty rooted in the "divided we fall" mentality. Incidentally, this was also the same plan Japan had (banding east Asia together under the banner of the Emperor) before the military decided to war everyone.

Then the path currently being taken by China is similar to the path taken by Japan in the run-up to WWII, and we all know how great that ended up.

Kaylea wrote:I think they should all unite and become Greater China through one country, two systems and let regions like Tibet, HK, Taiwan, Xinjiang, etc all become special autonomous regions. Pan-sinoism. It's all the West's fault that there is escalating tensions in the South China Sea region. It arms anyone belligerent to China and encourages suspicion as part of it's policy of containment. What occurs between China and other countries is not for others to get involved in.

Unfortunately we are not fond of "pan-sinoism" or whatever that means, because we are simply not Chinese. I find it funny that some people like to blame the West for the tensions, when it's actually China that is starting it all. We actually want the West to be involved, because we have no desire to be crushed under the weight of a regional giant whose record - human rights, environment, political rights, civil rights, etc. - are abysmal. We have no desire to live under such a political system, thank you.
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Kaylea
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Postby Kaylea » Thu May 22, 2014 6:49 am

Brutland and Norden wrote:
Tuthina wrote:It is more because China's idea of "banding together" involves all banding countries submitting to China's authority. It is partly a relic of China's Imperial past, and partly because we are pretty rooted in the "divided we fall" mentality. Incidentally, this was also the same plan Japan had (banding east Asia together under the banner of the Emperor) before the military decided to war everyone.

Then the path currently being taken by China is similar to the path taken by Japan in the run-up to WWII, and we all know how great that ended up.

Kaylea wrote:I think they should all unite and become Greater China through one country, two systems and let regions like Tibet, HK, Taiwan, Xinjiang, etc all become special autonomous regions. Pan-sinoism. It's all the West's fault that there is escalating tensions in the South China Sea region. It arms anyone belligerent to China and encourages suspicion as part of it's policy of containment. What occurs between China and other countries is not for others to get involved in.

Unfortunately we are not fond of "pan-sinoism" or whatever that means, because we are simply not Chinese. I find it funny that some people like to blame the West for the tensions, when it's actually China that is starting it all. We actually want the West to be involved, because we have no desire to be crushed under the weight of a regional giant whose record - human rights, environment, political rights, civil rights, etc. - are abysmal. We have no desire to live under such a political system, thank you.


If America hadn't propped up the ROC after the Korean war the PRC would've unified all of China and there'd be no territorial dispute with Taiwan. Unless you want to count the ROC's colonisation and displacement of Taiwanese aborigines.

HK does well enough under it's capitalist system.

Well if you are Han Chinese or one of the many ethnic Chinese groups then you are Chinese, if not a citizen of China. And that's what I mean by pan-sinoism. Ultimately one people, one nation.

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Brutland and Norden
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Thu May 22, 2014 7:10 am

Kaylea wrote:If America hadn't propped up the ROC after the Korean war the PRC would've unified all of China and there'd be no territorial dispute with Taiwan. Unless you want to count the ROC's colonisation and displacement of Taiwanese aborigines.

HK does well enough under it's capitalist system.

Well if you are Han Chinese or one of the many ethnic Chinese groups then you are Chinese, if not a citizen of China. And that's what I mean by pan-sinoism. Ultimately one people, one nation.

When and where shall this "pan-sinoism" stop, then? There is a widespread Chinese diaspora, which had bred resentment in many other Asian countries because of its control of economies. Where there are Chinese, it should be a part of China?
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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Thu May 22, 2014 7:11 am

Kaylea wrote:Well if you are Han Chinese or one of the many ethnic Chinese groups then you are Chinese, if not a citizen of China. And that's what I mean by pan-sinoism. Ultimately one people, one nation.


What a load of baloney. The Chinese in Singapore hardly hold any affection towards the PRC (on the contrary, there tends to be a lot of resentment towards the mainland Chinese) and are perfectly content to see themselves as Singaporeans instead.
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

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