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China, Taiwan, HK and "Asian crisis"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Estado Paulista
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Postby Estado Paulista » Mon May 19, 2014 5:50 pm

Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:They must rejoin China and stop their terrorist actions


Said the guy with Red Army Faction's banner as his flag.
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Baader-Meinhof Gruppe
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Postby Baader-Meinhof Gruppe » Mon May 19, 2014 5:51 pm

Greater Istanistan wrote:
Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:Taiwan and Hong Kong are parts of China. The only reason they are not under Chinese control is due to the imperialist actions of tyrants such as Thatcher. They must rejoin China and stop their terrorist actions


Terrorists? Wut?

I'm sorry, but with all due respect there has been to the best of my knowledge no evidence that Hong Kong or Taiwan have been orchestrating acts of terror against the People's Republic of China.

Oh, and for the record, China is not a Communist state, so I see no reason why you should irrationally support them given your apparent views.


Thatcher is the epitome of state sponsored terrorism. As was Reagan. Common knowledge the Iran-Contra scandal was.

China is not Communist, but since these states have worked alongside terrorists and only have their sovereignty due to terrorism they, like Israel, are not actual nations.

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Baader-Meinhof Gruppe
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Postby Baader-Meinhof Gruppe » Mon May 19, 2014 5:51 pm

Estado Paulista wrote:
Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:They must rejoin China and stop their terrorist actions


Said the guy with Red Army Faction's banner as his flag.


Fighting against the Viet Nam war was terrorism. Just like fighting the Nazis was right?

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Mon May 19, 2014 5:52 pm

Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:Taiwan and Hong Kong are parts of China. The only reason they are not under Chinese control is due to the imperialist actions of tyrants such as Thatcher. They must rejoin China and stop their terrorist actions


Thatcher oversaw returning HK back to China..
Last edited by Bombadil on Mon May 19, 2014 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Estado Paulista
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Postby Estado Paulista » Mon May 19, 2014 5:54 pm

Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:
Estado Paulista wrote:
Said the guy with Red Army Faction's banner as his flag.


Fighting against the Viet Nam war was terrorism. Just like fighting the Nazis was right?


Kidnapping and murdering people was, though.
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Baader-Meinhof Gruppe
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Postby Baader-Meinhof Gruppe » Mon May 19, 2014 5:54 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:Taiwan and Hong Kong are parts of China. The only reason they are not under Chinese control is due to the imperialist actions of tyrants such as Thatcher. They must rejoin China and stop their terrorist actions


Thatcher oversaw returning HK back to China..


Which allowed for it to have sovereignty. Sorry but having a terrorist say whether or not something is allowed to have sovereignty is wrong.

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Baader-Meinhof Gruppe
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Postby Baader-Meinhof Gruppe » Mon May 19, 2014 5:55 pm

Estado Paulista wrote:
Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:
Fighting against the Viet Nam war was terrorism. Just like fighting the Nazis was right?


Kidnapping and murdering people was, though.


Exactly. Thus why they opposed the Viet Nam war.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Mon May 19, 2014 5:59 pm

Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Thatcher oversaw returning HK back to China..


Which allowed for it to have sovereignty. Sorry but having a terrorist say whether or not something is allowed to have sovereignty is wrong.


Technically the only reason the CCP aren't terrorists is that they won..

..anyway, it's not as though you're here for rational debate anyway.
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Baader-Meinhof Gruppe
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Postby Baader-Meinhof Gruppe » Mon May 19, 2014 6:00 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Baader-Meinhof Gruppe wrote:
Which allowed for it to have sovereignty. Sorry but having a terrorist say whether or not something is allowed to have sovereignty is wrong.


Technically the only reason the CCP aren't terrorists is that they won..

..anyway, it's not as though you're here for rational debate anyway.


Yes, because I oppose allowing terrorists to lead nations and decide on matters of other nation's sovereignty I'm the irrational one. Riiiigggghhhhtttt

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Snefaldia
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Postby Snefaldia » Mon May 19, 2014 7:09 pm

This would make sense if it hadn't been politically expedient for Deng Xiaoping to agree to HK's SAR status in the first place. It was made clear to the British that one way or another HK was going to be returned to China. The fact is that Deng and the Party played along in order to win face and throw out some consolation prizes about "Democracy in 2017" when the reality is that Beijing is increasingly unlikely to stand by the legal agreements they made during handover.

Furthermore, HK has limited sovereignty, which is not the same as full sovereignty. They don't conduct foreign policy and they don't have an army- they are dependent on Beijing. Beyond that, Beijing's domination of HK politics means their sovereignty is barely a fig leaf for the tycoons and cadres.

Pingxiang wrote:Certain so called people of Hong Kong and Taiwan are just jealous of the rise of the mainland.

China is big and has regional differences. Many people come from rural regions. So I would not expect a rural person from Jiangxi province to be has culturally sophisticated has some well educated and loaded with money has someone from Hong Kong and Taipei Taiwan which are small and have more access to the worlds culture.

The PRC government knows this is a problem so they have made guides for Chinese itravelers to other nations on how they should behave.

And the Chinese economy seems to be doing quite well. This news is from last month.


The US is on the brink of losing its status as the world’s largest economy, and is likely to slip behind China this year, sooner than widely anticipated, according to the world’s leading statistical agencies.
.
Article - http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d79ffff8 ... z32BOIrPjS

When it comes to the Spratlies. The nations surrounding it like the Philippines should have paid attention to those islands. But they could care less. Seeing no one there, the PRC decided to fill the vacuum and move people and troops to some of the islands.


The Chinese economy is not doing well. Housing prices have started slumping and there were protests in Nanjing last week. Credit and shadow money is seizing up whenever the Central Bank restricts the money supply even a little, and Party leadership has been on the drumbeat for months about "comprehensively deepening reform" because they've admitted, publicly, that 7.5% growth is not sustainable- which is isn't, considering slowing industrial production.

It may become the largest economy, but it won't be a healthy economy. Restrictions on capital transfer and forex are not the sign of a healthy economy.
Marcurix wrote:
Had his statement not included the bit about tourists, I'd be inclined to disagree. However “We don’t need more Chinese tourists coming to Taiwan. Do we have to suffer more and sacrifice our quality of living?” is not a statement concerning his rights, it's that he doesn't like mainland Chinese tourists.

That's extreme.


Again, not extreme considering the behavior of mainlanders- not just in Taiwan and HK, but worldwide. There are many reports of mainland tourists misbehaving, even assaulting Taiwanese tour guides who try to get them to behave. Many Taiwanese don't like mainland Chinese tourists precisely because of their behavior- and the justification for that behavior is that "it's China, we can do what we want!"

That attitude builds resentment. An extreme statement would be "Let's kill all the 大陆人."
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Libertarian California
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Postby Libertarian California » Mon May 19, 2014 9:02 pm

My only comment on all of this is that Hong Kong should be an independent city-state, and not fall into PRC hands.
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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Mon May 19, 2014 10:54 pm

Libertarian California wrote:My only comment on all of this is that Hong Kong should be an independent city-state, and not fall into PRC hands.

Don't think Hong Kong could stay independent for long under PRC invasion, though. It would at least stand longer if it remained part of the Commonwealth, but the odds are against Hong Kong since the beginning.
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Marcurix
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Postby Marcurix » Mon May 19, 2014 11:51 pm

Snefaldia wrote:
Marcurix wrote:
Had his statement not included the bit about tourists, I'd be inclined to disagree. However “We don’t need more Chinese tourists coming to Taiwan. Do we have to suffer more and sacrifice our quality of living?” is not a statement concerning his rights, it's that he doesn't like mainland Chinese tourists.

That's extreme.


Again, not extreme considering the behavior of mainlanders- not just in Taiwan and HK, but worldwide. There are many reports of mainland tourists misbehaving, even assaulting Taiwanese tour guides who try to get them to behave. Many Taiwanese don't like mainland Chinese tourists precisely because of their behavior- and the justification for that behavior is that "it's China, we can do what we want!"

That attitude builds resentment. An extreme statement would be "Let's kill all the 大陆人."


But it is, because he is stereotyping mainland tourists. Got to certain parts, or all around, the world and there's a bad stereotype about every kind of tourist. American, British, French, Japanese and so on and so forth all are looked down upon because they supposedly act in a certain manner. It is never the majority that actually behave like this, but a small minority, so labeling all mainland Chinese as such is a very extreme stance to take.
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Snefaldia
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Postby Snefaldia » Tue May 20, 2014 12:06 am

Yes, he's stereotyping, but let's put it in perspective: according to the ROC tourism numbers,, in March alone 40% of all tourism to Taiwan was from the Mainland- out of some 881,003 visitors. Out of ALL tourists, nearly half are Mainlanders.

Let's look at HK's numbers: from the Tourism Commission, 40.7 million mainlanders visited HK in 2013. While it's true that there is a difference in the relationship between Taiwan and HK, it's still evidence that there is a huge amount of tourism from the PRC.

While it may be true that, for the sake of argument, Mainlanders in general are well-behaved and polite- Mainland Chinese themselves are outraged when it comes to the reported behavior of their compatriots abroad. From Chinasmack, Chinese expressed outrage at tourist behavior in Taiwan. (My favorite comment has to be "The characters of Chinese tourists, like the moral character of Chinese businessmen, is world famous!")

My point is that his statements are definitely not extreme, and given the history of Taiwan and China (PRC and ROC) and growing fears about economic domination, as well as the growing numbers of tourists from the Mainland, I still believe they are well-placed, especially when Chinese commentators regularly express their shame and disappointment at how Chinese tourists act abroad.
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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue May 20, 2014 1:00 am

Snefaldia wrote:This would make sense if it hadn't been politically expedient for Deng Xiaoping to agree to HK's SAR status in the first place. It was made clear to the British that one way or another HK was going to be returned to China. The fact is that Deng and the Party played along in order to win face and throw out some consolation prizes about "Democracy in 2017" when the reality is that Beijing is increasingly unlikely to stand by the legal agreements they made during handover.

Furthermore, HK has limited sovereignty, which is not the same as full sovereignty. They don't conduct foreign policy and they don't have an army- they are dependent on Beijing. Beyond that, Beijing's domination of HK politics means their sovereignty is barely a fig leaf for the tycoons and cadres.

Pingxiang wrote:Certain so called people of Hong Kong and Taiwan are just jealous of the rise of the mainland.

China is big and has regional differences. Many people come from rural regions. So I would not expect a rural person from Jiangxi province to be has culturally sophisticated has some well educated and loaded with money has someone from Hong Kong and Taipei Taiwan which are small and have more access to the worlds culture.

The PRC government knows this is a problem so they have made guides for Chinese itravelers to other nations on how they should behave.

And the Chinese economy seems to be doing quite well. This news is from last month.


.
Article - http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d79ffff8 ... z32BOIrPjS

When it comes to the Spratlies. The nations surrounding it like the Philippines should have paid attention to those islands. But they could care less. Seeing no one there, the PRC decided to fill the vacuum and move people and troops to some of the islands.


The Chinese economy is not doing well. Housing prices have started slumping and there were protests in Nanjing last week. Credit and shadow money is seizing up whenever the Central Bank restricts the money supply even a little, and Party leadership has been on the drumbeat for months about "comprehensively deepening reform" because they've admitted, publicly, that 7.5% growth is not sustainable- which is isn't, considering slowing industrial production.

It may become the largest economy, but it won't be a healthy economy. Restrictions on capital transfer and forex are not the sign of a healthy economy.
Marcurix wrote:
Had his statement not included the bit about tourists, I'd be inclined to disagree. However “We don’t need more Chinese tourists coming to Taiwan. Do we have to suffer more and sacrifice our quality of living?” is not a statement concerning his rights, it's that he doesn't like mainland Chinese tourists.

That's extreme.


Again, not extreme considering the behavior of mainlanders- not just in Taiwan and HK, but worldwide. There are many reports of mainland tourists misbehaving, even assaulting Taiwanese tour guides who try to get them to behave. Many Taiwanese don't like mainland Chinese tourists precisely because of their behavior- and the justification for that behavior is that "it's China, we can do what we want!"

That attitude builds resentment. An extreme statement would be "Let's kill all the 大陆人."


Really, I haven't met that many chinese but I don't get the impression that that's how they generally behave at home or abroad. It seems even odder given how strongly repressive the local and federal govt can be. I suppose perhaps they might feel that Taiwan is some kind of special case but still, just seems a bit odd to me. I mean, the chinese don't strike me as the type to behave like Eric Cartman spouting "whatever whatever I do what I want" while beating up a tour guide. I can't believe the mainland govt would be tolerant of this either regardless of how they feel towards Taiwan (or really any other Asian neighbor for that matter). ;)

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Snefaldia
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Postby Snefaldia » Tue May 20, 2014 1:12 am

They are starting to get around to it.

"Mainlanders behaving badly" isn't anything new- last year some kid scrawled his name on an Ancient Egyptian tomb carving, saying something like "Ding was Here' or the equivalent in Chinese.

China Daily also has a rather sniffy take on Mainland tourism. It's a catch-22: people want the newly rich Chinese to come spend money, but they want them to respect local customs.
Last edited by Snefaldia on Tue May 20, 2014 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue May 20, 2014 1:28 am

Snefaldia wrote:They are starting to get around to it.

"Mainlanders behaving badly" isn't anything new- last year some kid scrawled his name on an Ancient Egyptian tomb carving, saying something like "Ding was Here' or the equivalent in Chinese.

China Daily also has a rather sniffy take on Mainland tourism. It's a catch-22: people want the newly rich Chinese to come spend money, but they want them to respect local customs.


Wow that's pretty messed up, I rarely find myself saying the PRC needs to crackdown on it's citizens, but in this case it may actually be warranted. Then again kids do tend to misbehave now and again, it tends to be a universal trait no matter where there from, of course adults not following proper decorum is a bit more serious to be sure. ;)

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Brutland and Norden
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Tue May 20, 2014 2:46 am

Pingxiang wrote:When it comes to the Spratlies. The nations surrounding it like the Philippines should have paid attention to those islands. But they could care less. Seeing no one there, the PRC decided to fill the vacuum and move people and troops to some of the islands.

Source.

Back then, the Chinese government was not even sure where the Spratly Islands were. They were counter-claiming it against France, thinking it was the Paracels. In 1933, the Chinese consul in Manila even had to ask the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey where the Spratlys were. So, it seems that the US Administration and the Philippine government were paying more attention and are more knowledgeable to Spratly Islands than China was.

Quote from the article:
Why did the Chinese government change the scope of its territory so dramatically between 1933 and 1934? Since 1931, the territorial integrity of China had been threatened. In 1931, Manchuria was annexed by the Japanese. In 1932, the French government was claiming, for the first time, the Paracel Islands as part of Annam (Vietnam). Moreover, as we have said above, the French government made a second claim, in July 1933, this time on the Spratly Islands. This last claim was made just two months after the Chinese committee on national territory began its work. These two claims of the French government confused the minds of not only of the Chinese public and the media, but also the official authorities like the military and the politicians in Guangdong Province and Beijing. In fact, the Chinese believed that the Spratly Islands and Paracel Islands or Xisha were exactly the same group, but that the French had just changed the name as a trick to confuse the Chinese government. To ascertain the position of the Spratly Islands, the Chinese Consul in Manila, Mr. Kwong, went, on July 26, 1933, to the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey and discovered, with surprise, that the Spratly Islands and the Paracel Islands were different and far apart. This big blunder, showing a complete lack of knowledge about the Spratly Islands, was recognized by the Chinese authorities in their internal documents.


The other claimants exercised sovereign actions on the disputed islands long before China wanted in to grab all the islands. Fishing alone, or having it appear on your map, is not a sovereign action. Otherwise, if maps will be the basis, the Americas would've been all Turkish.
Last edited by Brutland and Norden on Tue May 20, 2014 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Snefaldia
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Postby Snefaldia » Tue May 20, 2014 3:50 am

That final point is what's really dangerous; in the Senkaku issue China is claiming Ming Dynasty maps as proof the area is Chinese territory (among other documents, but the map is the basis).

A 500 year old map, for a modern geopolitical dispute. It would be the same as the Vatican awarding parts of Venezuela to Brazil based on a map from 1498, or Germany claiming northern Poland because Prussia.

I think the bullishness from China is caused by internal weakness and masked political instability; i.e. search for outer enemies while cracking down on internal ones.
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Brutland and Norden
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Tue May 20, 2014 5:13 am

Snefaldia wrote:I think the bullishness from China is caused by internal weakness and masked political instability; i.e. search for outer enemies while cracking down on internal ones.

That is also my suspicion from the recent spate of aggressiveness, not only form China, but from Russia as well (Ukraine crisis, but that's another topic). With internal dissent rising and economic growth slowing, an outside bogeyman (real or (usually) imagined) is a tried-and-tested way to shore up support at home.
Last edited by Brutland and Norden on Tue May 20, 2014 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shofercia » Tue May 20, 2014 9:20 am

Snefaldia wrote:To begin, I am an American living and working in Shanghai. My university focus was on Asian history and culture, and since coming to China I've started following politics in Asia a lot more, often with ensuing depression and outrage.

Shanghaiist posted this article today:

Taiwanese singer-songwriter Bobby Chen had Chinese netizens up in arms and Taiwan/Hong Kong residents downright giddy when he remarked in a recent interview that mainland tourists should stay away from the island and learn to shut the door when they go to the bathroom.
Taipei Times reports:
Chen, an erudite singer-songwriter and leader of the popular New Formosa Band (新寶島康樂隊), said he does not sacrifice his principles, unlike other entertainers who kowtow to China with apologies and try to curry favor with the Chinese government.

Instead of China shutting him out, Chen said: “I shut out China. That is what I am most proud of, staying here and bolstering Taiwan to become a bigger market. Since I don’t need the money, therefore you [China] cannot do nothing about me. All I need is Taiwan’s domestic market.”

In the interview, Chen voiced his opposition to the cross-strait service trade agreement, adding: “We don’t need more Chinese tourists coming to Taiwan. Do we have to suffer more and sacrifice our quality of living?”
Of course, a spokesman for China's Association for Relations Across the Taiwan Straits said in a statement that these "extreme views" don't represent most of Taiwan.
Still, Chen has apparently been praised for his statements in both Taiwan and Hong Kong. Hong Kong's Passion Times Magazine began circulating a poster of Chen with a slogan depicting him as a 'heroic man', according to Taipei Times.
“He is a real Taiwanese with courage. Money can not influence his upright standing of righteousness,” one Hong Kong netizen wrote.
“Everyone should learn to have a strong backbone like Chen, then Chinese tourists will not act in such arrogant ways," another said.

Xinhua recently cited the comments in an editorial calling for an end to biased remarks about mainland China.
"It needs to be pointed out that remarks from singers or other public figures in Hong Kong and Taiwan ostensibly targeting the misconduct of tourists were not made to help strengthen ties," it read.
"Taiwan has been a big beneficiary of the mainland's opening up and economic development. The same is true for Hong Kong."
The editorial also made reference to ol' piss gate, which began when a young mainland couple let their toddler urinate on a busy Mong Kok street while visiting Hong Kong and ended with intervention by the World Toilet Organization.


To make a long story short, there's a lot of bad blood between a newly rich China and people in Hong Kong and Taiwan. On top of that, China's foreign policy has been increasingly muscular with regards to other nations- the Senkaku Islands with Japan, the Spratlys with the Philippines, the South China Sea with Vietnam, Indonesia, and Brunei- just to name a few. There's been a lot of bad blood created between not just non-Chinese countries and China, but also within the "Greater China" area. Bobby Chen's comments are pretty indicative to me of a resentment with mainland Chinese policies and behaviors, and I find them pretty persuasive, although some Taiwanese I've talked to are pretty pessimistic about increasing mainland control.

I wonder what NSG's opinion about China and the relationship between Taiwan, Hong Kong, and the other areas in Asia are, because I sometimes feel on the inside here and would like a bit of perspective. What do you think about the "One China" policy, or the "One Country, Two Systems" policy in particular? Do you agree with the PRC's positions on the disputed territories?


Hong Kong is China. The current deal expires in 2040-2050: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA after which China can simply into Hong Kong. The Taiwan Dispute is nothing new, it's been that way since the Chinese Revolution and won't change. Taiwan insisting that they'll ever control something more than their tiny island isn't helping the matter. Japan also has other island disputes.
Last edited by Shofercia on Tue May 20, 2014 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tuthina
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Postby Tuthina » Tue May 20, 2014 9:40 am

Shofercia wrote:Hong Kong is China. The current deal expires in 2040-2050: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA after which China can simply into Hong Kong. The Taiwan Dispute is nothing new, it's been that way since the Chinese Revolution and won't change. Taiwan insisting that they'll ever control something more than their tiny island isn't helping the matter. Japan also has other island disputes.

Well, to be fair, the sole reason why ROC is maintaining the claim on mainland China (it is not like they actually believe they will return anytime soon) is that any amendment on its status will be seen as declaring independence from PRC, which will provoke war... from PRC.
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Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Tue May 20, 2014 1:53 pm

Tuthina wrote:
Shofercia wrote:Hong Kong is China. The current deal expires in 2040-2050: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA after which China can simply into Hong Kong. The Taiwan Dispute is nothing new, it's been that way since the Chinese Revolution and won't change. Taiwan insisting that they'll ever control something more than their tiny island isn't helping the matter. Japan also has other island disputes.

Well, to be fair, the sole reason why ROC is maintaining the claim on mainland China (it is not like they actually believe they will return anytime soon) is that any amendment on its status will be seen as declaring independence from PRC, which will provoke war... from PRC.


Wow, I didn't know that. Thank you for the info!
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NERVUN
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Posts: 29456
Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby NERVUN » Tue May 20, 2014 4:17 pm

Snefaldia wrote:That final point is what's really dangerous; in the Senkaku issue China is claiming Ming Dynasty maps as proof the area is Chinese territory (among other documents, but the map is the basis).

A 500 year old map, for a modern geopolitical dispute. It would be the same as the Vatican awarding parts of Venezuela to Brazil based on a map from 1498, or Germany claiming northern Poland because Prussia.

I think the bullishness from China is caused by internal weakness and masked political instability; i.e. search for outer enemies while cracking down on internal ones.

That and also, China feels it is strong again. It has a long memory and the notion of weak China being forced to kowtow to nations that previously it held the upper hand over has been lovingly passed down as a national obsession.
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Benuty
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Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Tue May 20, 2014 4:35 pm

NERVUN wrote:
Snefaldia wrote:That final point is what's really dangerous; in the Senkaku issue China is claiming Ming Dynasty maps as proof the area is Chinese territory (among other documents, but the map is the basis).

A 500 year old map, for a modern geopolitical dispute. It would be the same as the Vatican awarding parts of Venezuela to Brazil based on a map from 1498, or Germany claiming northern Poland because Prussia.

I think the bullishness from China is caused by internal weakness and masked political instability; i.e. search for outer enemies while cracking down on internal ones.

That and also, China feels it is strong again. It has a long memory and the notion of weak China being forced to kowtow to nations that previously it held the upper hand over has been lovingly passed down as a national obsession.

Ah nationalism you two sided, never sending cookies or mail, and staying up till five in the morning Californian valley girl.

What a bitch.
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