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Anti-Chinese riots in Vietnam

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Westwickport
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Re: Anti-Chinese riots in Vietnam

Postby Westwickport » Thu May 15, 2014 8:53 am

-Edit reason: Old opinion, of which I do not share anymore
Last edited by Westwickport on Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Imperial Nilfgaard » Thu May 15, 2014 8:54 am

The Scientific States wrote:
Imperial Nilfgaard wrote:Riots and Violence against Chinese citizens is spiraling in Vietnam. Reports of factories being burned and ethnic Chinese businessmen fleeing is the unfortunate byproduct of this situation.
20 people have been killed thus far in the past day.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... in-vietnam

It is sad to see such hostility against the People's Republic of China. I feel like the West is purposefully trying to stoke tension in the region by pitting China's neighbors against Beijing in a thinly veiled containment policy.
"Pivot to Asia" as they like to call it.
Obama's Sino-phobic Asia tour last month as a good example of this policy.

Vietnam must immediately work to contain this nationalist outburst, or bad things may come.


That's very sad, and I hope the situation gets better. However, blaming this on the west is silly.


Its not silly when last month, Obama toured Asia and singed defense contracts with China's neighbors Japan and Philippines in what was clearly an attempt to pin China in.
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The New Lowlands
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Postby The New Lowlands » Thu May 15, 2014 9:00 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The New Lowlands wrote:You know, they first started saying stuff like what I italicized prior to the First World War, IIRC. But I digress; you're not interested in the military factors, and that's fair enough.

In that case, I should point out that the GDP of the U.S. and E.U. combined is approximately $32,264,000,000,000, while the GDP of China and Russia combined is $ 10,242,000,000,000. This is not accounting for other trade partners (e.g. Canada, Turkey) who in a hypothetical trade war would most likely align themselves in the Wests' favour. Our economic might is roughly three times that of our hypothetical adversaries.


This entirely ignores that we are reliant on them for our economy to work.
They are not necessarily reliant on us.

Yes, they are.

Russia's major import partners include Germany, Japan, The United States, Italy, and France. Together, these states account for 30.8% of Russian imports; this does not include the rest of the EU.

Over 50% of Russia's exports are petroleum-related, an export market that would collapse in a trade war.

Major import partners of China include Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States, Germany, and Australia, which together account for 43.3% of China's imports.

Conversely, in the case of the European Union, Russia accounts for just 11.9% of imports and China for 16.2%. China accounted for 19% of US imports; Russia isn't in the top 5. Most of China's trade comes from taking advantage of cheap, skilled domestic labour to make products which can also be made in the West; the only real hiccup is Russia's gas pipelines.

Imperial Nilfgaard wrote:
The Scientific States wrote:
That's very sad, and I hope the situation gets better. However, blaming this on the west is silly.


Its not silly when last month, Obama toured Asia and singed defense contracts with China's neighbors Japan and Philippines in what was clearly an attempt to pin China in.

Japan and the Philippines have been US allies for a long time.
Last edited by The New Lowlands on Thu May 15, 2014 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Isles of New Babylon
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Postby The Isles of New Babylon » Thu May 15, 2014 9:15 am

It's no surprise really China has been quite proactive in getting involved in territorial disputes with many of it's neighbours especially in the South China Sea.

When I was in China last year I read an English language Chinese newspaper with the headline and lead story about how the Phillipines were wrong to be disputing territory with China and denouncing pro-Phillipines demonstrations in Manila.
Last edited by The Isles of New Babylon on Thu May 15, 2014 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Benuty » Thu May 15, 2014 9:25 am

The Scientific States wrote:
Confederate Nordenkaltian Nations wrote:Vietnam has always been a puppet state to Russia or now China, they have good reason to be upset.


No...

Read your history books, because that is entirely untrue.

Not always but it was at some centuries ago a mere Chinese vassal state :P.
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Thu May 15, 2014 10:23 am

The New Lowlands wrote:
Imperial Nilfgaard wrote:Its not silly when last month, Obama toured Asia and singed defense contracts with China's neighbors Japan and Philippines in what was clearly an attempt to pin China in.

Japan and the Philippines have been US allies for a long time.

And this is true. The Philippines and Japan were running to the USA for support against China's increasingly aggressive behavior. It's not as if the USA is deliberately doing these things to provoke China. China has provoked its neighbors into seeking support and closer relations with the USA.

Somebody's got the causative relationship the other way around in order to feed his biases and prejudice.

The Isles of New Babylon wrote:When I was in China last year I read an English language Chinese newspaper with the headline and lead story about how the Phillipines were wrong to be disputing territory with China and denouncing pro-Phillipines demonstrations in Manila.

Might does not always make right. ;)
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Postby Pingxiang » Thu May 15, 2014 10:24 am

Time to move the factories to the Kingdom of Cambodia and to the People's Democratic Republic of Laos.

The following news article below is just from one hour ago. Seems the government of Vietnam was caught with there pants down when it came to what happened. This could really cause investors, not just Chinese from China, Hong Kong or Taiwan, to rethink investing in Vietnam .

Read this from Businessweek
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... hina-riots

I really think the PRC and the other nations of the region should really sit down and finally reach an agreement on the Spratly region. It should be said that none of those other nations in the region ever cared about the Spratly islands until China went in to fill the vacuum. If the Philippines or others had settled those islands and built some military or coast guard facilities on some of those islands or reefs that more then likely China would not have entered much into that region.
Last edited by Pingxiang on Thu May 15, 2014 10:28 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Viritica
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Postby Viritica » Thu May 15, 2014 10:36 am

I'm just waiting for people to start chanting that "China has the right to do what they want in their sphere of influence" bullshit.
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Pope Joan
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Postby Pope Joan » Thu May 15, 2014 10:38 am

Deep dislike of the Chinese is nothing new in Vietnam. it was comical to hear our leaders preach about the domino effect, and of how if Vietnam "fell" to communist control then the whole area would immediately come under the sway of China. Ho was educated in France and influenced by Lenin. Neither he nor, as far as I can tell, any of his compatriots had any affection for China.

"Liberation from China

In the early 10th century the Tang dynasty in China collapsed. The Vietnamese seized the initiative and launched a long overdue revolt against Chinese rule in Vietnam. In 938 AD popular patriot Ngo Quyen finally vanquished the Chinese armies at a battle on the Bach Dang River, ending 1000 years of Chinese rule. However, it was not the last time the Vietnamese would tussle with their mighty northern neighbour.

From the 11th to 13th centuries, Vietnamese independence was consolidated under the enlightened emperors of the Ly dynasty, founded by Ly Thai To. During the Ly dynasty, many enemies launched attacks on Vietnam, among them the Chinese, the Khmer and the Cham but all were repelled. Meanwhile, the Vietnamese continued their expansion southwards and slowly but surely began to consolidate control of the Cham kingdom.

Mongol warrior Kublai Khan completed his conquest of China in the mid-13th century. For his next trick, he planned to attack Champa and demanded the right to cross Vietnamese territory. The Vietnamese refused, but the Mongol hordes – all 500, 000 of them – pushed ahead, seemingly invulnerable. However, they met their match in the legendary general Tran Hung Dao; he defeated them in the battle of Bach Dang River, one of the most celebrated scalps among many the Vietnamese have taken.

China bites back

The Chinese seized control of Vietnam again in the early 15th century, carting off the national archives and some of the country’s intellectuals to China – an irreparable loss to Vietnamese civilisation. The Chinese controlled much of the country from 1407, imposing a regime of heavy taxation and slave labour. The poet Nguyen Trai (1380–1442) wrote of this period:

Were the water of the Eastern Sea to be exhausted, the stain of their ignominy could not be washed away; all the bamboo of the Southern Mountains would not suffice to provide the paper for recording all their crimes.


Le Loi enters the scene



In 1418 wealthy philanthropist Le Loi sparked the Lam Son Uprising, travelling the countryside to rally the people against the Chinese. Upon victory in 1428, Le Loi declared himself Emperor Le Thai To, the first in the long line of the Le dynasty. To this day, Le Loi is riding high in the Top Ten of the country’s all-time national heroes.

Following Le Loi’s victory over the Chinese, Nguyen Trai, a scholar and Le Loi’s companion in arms, wrote his infamous Great Proclamation (Binh Ngo Dai Cao). Guaranteed to fan the flames of nationalism almost six centuries later, it articulated Vietnam’s fierce spirit of independence:

Our people long ago established Vietnam as an independent nation with its own civilisation. We have our own mountains and our own rivers, our own customs and traditions, and these are different from those of the foreign country to the north…We have sometimes been weak and sometimes powerful, but at no time have we suffered from a lack of heroes."

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/vietnam/history#72281
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Thu May 15, 2014 12:24 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The New Lowlands wrote:
If there's any lack of strength, it's purely imaginary. How the heck do you figure that it's in the West's interest to be seen as encouraging China?


It isn't purely imaginary. We're in a bit of a pickle economically right now, and we can't even deal with Russia invading Ukraine.
Do you honestly think we'll give a shit about China invading Vietnam?

We need to keep China our ally. If China begins to shift out of it's neutrality into a pact with the Russians, we're fucked. It'll be a new cold war, and we may lose.

China won't invade Vietnam, that didn't work for them the first time around.
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Postby Graknopia » Thu May 15, 2014 12:29 pm

Imperial Nilfgaard wrote:
The Scientific States wrote:
That's very sad, and I hope the situation gets better. However, blaming this on the west is silly.


Its not silly when last month, Obama toured Asia and singed defense contracts with China's neighbors Japan and Philippines in what was clearly an attempt to pin China in.

The USA has been friends with the Philippines with Japan and China for a long time. China and Vietnam have not usually liked each other. And if you would like to respond to the arguments in this thread that would be great instead of just ignoring everything else.
Last edited by Graknopia on Thu May 15, 2014 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Thu May 15, 2014 12:33 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Tuthina wrote:Mostly political as far as I know. Many overseas Chinese are refugees fleeing PRC, so mainlanders in general are not exactly hold with high regards as a result.


Not migrants? Hell, people where I live (which is NZ) are claiming that the Chinese are behind recent property bubbles and all sorts of things. There's calls from the left wing for tougher immigration.

So the PRC is causing property bubbles on a global scale?
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Pingxiang
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Postby Pingxiang » Thu May 15, 2014 12:40 pm

Pope Joan wrote:Deep dislike of the Chinese is nothing new in Vietnam. it was comical to hear our leaders preach about the domino effect, and of how if Vietnam "fell" to communist control then the whole area would immediately come under the sway of China. Ho was educated in France and influenced by Lenin. Neither he nor, as far as I can tell, any of his compatriots had any affection for China.

"Liberation from China

In the early 10th century the Tang dynasty in China collapsed. The Vietnamese seized the initiative and launched a long overdue revolt against Chinese rule in Vietnam. In 938 AD popular patriot Ngo Quyen finally vanquished the Chinese armies at a battle on the Bach Dang River, ending 1000 years of Chinese rule. However, it was not the last time the Vietnamese would tussle with their mighty northern neighbour.

From the 11th to 13th centuries, Vietnamese independence was consolidated under the enlightened emperors of the Ly dynasty, founded by Ly Thai To. During the Ly dynasty, many enemies launched attacks on Vietnam, among them the Chinese, the Khmer and the Cham but all were repelled. Meanwhile, the Vietnamese continued their expansion southwards and slowly but surely began to consolidate control of the Cham kingdom.

Mongol warrior Kublai Khan completed his conquest of China in the mid-13th century. For his next trick, he planned to attack Champa and demanded the right to cross Vietnamese territory. The Vietnamese refused, but the Mongol hordes – all 500, 000 of them – pushed ahead, seemingly invulnerable. However, they met their match in the legendary general Tran Hung Dao; he defeated them in the battle of Bach Dang River, one of the most celebrated scalps among many the Vietnamese have taken.

China bites back

The Chinese seized control of Vietnam again in the early 15th century, carting off the national archives and some of the country’s intellectuals to China – an irreparable loss to Vietnamese civilisation.
The Chinese controlled much of the country from 1407, imposing a regime of heavy taxation and slave labour. The poet Nguyen Trai (1380–1442) wrote of this period:

Were the water of the Eastern Sea to be exhausted, the stain of their ignominy could not be washed away; all the bamboo of the Southern Mountains would not suffice to provide the paper for recording all their crimes.


Le Loi enters the scene



In 1418 wealthy philanthropist Le Loi sparked the Lam Son Uprising, travelling the countryside to rally the people against the Chinese. Upon victory in 1428, Le Loi declared himself Emperor Le Thai To, the first in the long line of the Le dynasty. To this day, Le Loi is riding high in the Top Ten of the country’s all-time national heroes.

Following Le Loi’s victory over the Chinese, Nguyen Trai, a scholar and Le Loi’s companion in arms, wrote his infamous Great Proclamation (Binh Ngo Dai Cao). Guaranteed to fan the flames of nationalism almost six centuries later, it articulated Vietnam’s fierce spirit of independence:

Our people long ago established Vietnam as an independent nation with its own civilisation. We have our own mountains and our own rivers, our own customs and traditions, and these are different from those of the foreign country to the north…We have sometimes been weak and sometimes powerful, but at no time have we suffered from a lack of heroes."

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/vietnam/history#72281


When it comes to the blue above, you forgot to mention that Vietnam’s royal Tran dynasty which had defeated the Mongol invaders many years earlier were deposed themselves and replaced by the royal Ho dynasty of Vietnam.

The Ho leaders was ruthless.
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Then some of the Tran dynasty members that had survived the overthrow asked the Ming Emperor to intervene diplomatically.

And this is what happened.
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Eliminating a diplomat back then generally guaranteed a War would follow. You just did not do things like that.

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Postby Saruhan » Thu May 15, 2014 1:53 pm

Are people really surprised about this? I mean the Vietnamese (especially the communist Vietnamese) aren't the biggest fans of China or of people occupying their territory

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Postby Pilotto » Thu May 15, 2014 2:57 pm

Imperial Nilfgaard wrote:
The Scientific States wrote:That's very sad, and I hope the situation gets better. However, blaming this on the west is silly.

Its not silly when last month, Obama toured Asia and singed defense contracts with China's neighbors Japan and Philippines in what was clearly an attempt to pin China in.

The West is trading with counties on the same continent as China?

Those imperialist bastards!

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Postby Blazedtown » Thu May 15, 2014 3:54 pm

Imperial Nilfgaard wrote:Riots and Violence against Chinese citizens is spiraling in Vietnam. Reports of factories being burned and ethnic Chinese businessmen fleeing is the unfortunate byproduct of this situation.
20 people have been killed thus far in the past day.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... in-vietnam

It is sad to see such hostility against the People's Republic of China. I feel like the West is purposefully trying to stoke tension in the region by pitting China's neighbors against Beijing in a thinly veiled containment policy.
"Pivot to Asia" as they like to call it.
Obama's Sino-phobic Asia tour last month as a good example of this policy.

Vietnam must immediately work to contain this nationalist outburst, or bad things may come.


The West isn't stoking anything in Vietnam. The Chinese and Vietnamese have been fighting for more than a thousand years, and as recently as the the late 70s.
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Postby Geilinor » Thu May 15, 2014 3:57 pm

China and Vietnam have been fighting for over 2000 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Vietnam_relations But no, everything is NATO's fault. :roll:
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Blazedtown
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Postby Blazedtown » Thu May 15, 2014 4:00 pm

Geilinor wrote:China and Vietnam have been fighting for over 2000 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Vietnam_relations But no, everything is NATO's fault. :roll:


Wikipedia is American propaganda. America is behind every conflict the Chinese have had with Vietnam.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Thu May 15, 2014 4:01 pm

Blazedtown wrote:
Geilinor wrote:China and Vietnam have been fighting for over 2000 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Vietnam_relations But no, everything is NATO's fault. :roll:


Wikipedia is American propaganda. America is behind every conflict the Chinese have had with Vietnam.

America made China invade Vietnam in 11 BC! :nods:
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Blazedtown
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Postby Blazedtown » Thu May 15, 2014 4:02 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:
Wikipedia is American propaganda. America is behind every conflict the Chinese have had with Vietnam.

America made China invade Vietnam in 11 BC! :nods:


Time is a lie.
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The Rhomaion
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Postby The Rhomaion » Thu May 15, 2014 4:07 pm

Blazedtown wrote:
Geilinor wrote:America made China invade Vietnam in 11 BC! :nods:


Time is a lie.


Turns out that Triệu Đà is actually Vietnamese for "George Washington".

You heard me, people. Time travel.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 15, 2014 4:07 pm

Imperial Nilfgaard wrote:Riots and Violence against Chinese citizens is spiraling in Vietnam. Reports of factories being burned and ethnic Chinese businessmen fleeing is the unfortunate byproduct of this situation.
20 people have been killed thus far in the past day.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... in-vietnam

It is sad to see such hostility against the People's Republic of China. I feel like the West is purposefully trying to stoke tension in the region by pitting China's neighbors against Beijing in a thinly veiled containment policy.
"Pivot to Asia" as they like to call it.
Obama's Sino-phobic Asia tour last month as a good example of this policy.

Vietnam must immediately work to contain this nationalist outburst, or bad things may come.


those poor Chinese people at the riot... this makes me unhappy...
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Postby Oaledonia » Thu May 15, 2014 4:08 pm

Sino-phobic.
That's a new one.
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The Rhomaion
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Postby The Rhomaion » Thu May 15, 2014 4:09 pm

Oaledonia wrote:Sino-phobic.
That's a new one.


Not really. Japan were quite keen on it in the 20th Century prior to 1945.
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Oaledonia
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Postby Oaledonia » Thu May 15, 2014 4:14 pm

The Rhomaion wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:Sino-phobic.
That's a new one.


Not really. Japan were quite keen on it in the 20th Century prior to 1945.

I'm talking about the OP. For the last few months he's blamed the US for everything, from Ukraine to this. First they were Russophobic, now they are Sino-phobic.
Last edited by Wikipe-tan on January 13, 2006 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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