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[Strykla]

This movie has been in production since the mid '90s, has had 300 million, spent on it, and your saying that it's crappy? It is AMAZING! I wonder if you've even seen it, how do I know you aren't just lying when you say "yes"?

Windows has been in production for longer, and had far more money spent on it. It's still shit.

Time and money do not equate to quality. Skill does.

(and no, I haven't seen Avatar. From the reviews I've read, I don't intend to. I'm just attacking the common belief that something must be good because it's expensive and took a long time)

In case you haven't realised yet, windows isn't a movie. Avatar isn't a software program. And you can't judge something you haven't seen.

[Port Arcana]

Oh wow, just got out of the theatre and I must say that it was definitely worth it and the highlight of my winter break thus far.

Anyhow...

Accusation 1. Avatar is branded as an obvious leftist, anti-war, anti-industrial, pro-environmentalist propaganda. It is animation, and many children are going to watch it. And they will get brainwashed into the New Age, hippie naturalist agenda of the author(s). Just one more proof that Hollywood is Liberal, etc. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/geoffrey-dickens/2009/12/14/today-james-cameron-reveals-liberal-propaganda-avatar

Accusation 2. Avatar is unpatriotic, un-American and many more "un" things, and above all, un-humanist, because it puts mankind in the position of the bad guys, the oppressor, who is colonising the poor lovely aliens. It is also seen as an allusion to the Iraq War. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100019656/is-avatar-an-attack-on-the-iraq-war/

Accusation 3. Avatar is racist, because, when drawing the above parallel between the human invasion and colonialism, it creates an impression that only the white man (i.e. the humans) possess the ability/capacity to destroy worlds, and respectively to save worlds. The native aliens are obviously not able to save themselves on their own, and they need a white/human to do it for them.

Accusation 4. In the meantime, Avatar promotes reverse racism, because it implants white guilt - humans are the bad guys, they are destroying a beautiful planet and a native civilisation that lives in harmony with nature. "And then there’s his underlying purpose: Avatar is the corniest movie ever made about the white man's need to lose his identity and assuage racial, political, sexual and historical guilt." http://www.nypress.com/article-20710-blue-in-the-face.html

1) I could see that somewhat. It definitely had a strong environmentalism message (my inner hippie was squealing with glee throughout the entire film) and portrayed the scientists, conservationists, anthropologists as the good guys while the corporation and military as the bad guys. Although I seriously doubt that Hollywood has a liberal agenda...

2) I didn't see America as much as the imperialism of previous centuries. The entire time I kept thinking Heart of Darkness for some reason. However, I do think colonel douchebag was sort of meant to represent the tough hooha-ness, "rugged individualism" of stereotypical America (or Bush administration) because "we have to fight terror with terror". (I literally facepalmed when he said that)

3) I don't see this point as much. It wasn't really "the white man" that saved them, but rather "the chosen one" which in most stories doesn't have an ethnicity requirement.

4) Maybe, maybe not. I think the general message is more of, capitalism-bad, environmentalism-good, but then again I could be reading too much into it already.

[Soratsin]

In case you haven't realised yet, windows isn't a movie. Avatar isn't a software program. And you can't judge something you haven't seen.

I have seen it, and it's not that good.

The only thing good about it was the visual effects and the artistry. Everything else was total shit, and as you've mentioned before, it had a 300 million dollar budget and a 10 year+ production time, the visual effects couldn't have been anything but amazing no matter who made them given that amount of time and money.

[Playing In The Water]

Oh wow, just got out of the theatre and I must say that it was definitely worth it and the highlight of my winter break thus far.

Haha, yaaay, someone who's of the same opinion as me!

I was honestly looking forward to this more than Christmas, and that's never happened with a movie before ever. And it delivered, even, which was nice!

I have seen it, and it's not that good.

The only thing good about it was the visual effects and the artistry. Everything else was total shit, and as you've mentioned before, it had a 300 million dollar budget and a 10 year+ production time, the visual effects couldn't have been anything but amazing no matter who made them given that amount of time and money.

It hasn't been in production for over ten years...!

People say that, but it's not the case. James Cameron just came up with the idea like 14 years ago, there wasn't any actual work done on it until a few years ago. But yes, it did have lotsa money, and the visuals were incredible; still doesn't make it your kind of movie though, evidently. And that's okay! I personally love the whole 'romantic epic' thing, even if it WAS really predictable overall. Not everyone has the same tastes as me; those people are the spice of life, though!

[Delator]

And...if anything, the movie is a very good way to kill 3 hours in the theater! So, in case you still haven't seen it, go watch it and then report back!

Or just tell me your opinion on the above issues.

Regarding the "issues", I think some people have way too much time on their hands...

...as for the movie, it's very, very good. The characters aren't as developed as they could be...there are some rather abrupt cuts that lead me to believe that no less than 30 minutes was cut from the film. The plots kinda predictable, but it's well executed, and doesn't fail at keeping the audience's attention when there isn't a lot of eye-candy on screen...and of course, the SFX are the best I've ever seen...hands down.

It's been a long time since I payed money to see a film in the theaters for a second time, but I'm catching this one again later this week...if we go by that criteria alone, this is the best movie to come out in at least a decade.

I won't say outright that that is the case...but it's damned close.

[Playing In The Water]

It's been a long time since I payed money to see a film in the theaters for a second time, but I'm catching this one again later this week...if we go by that criteria alone, this is the best movie to come out in at least a decade.

I won't say outright that that is the case...but it's damned close.

I'm gonna be seeing it for the third time after Christmas, myself. Never seen a movie three times in theatres.

It really is a great movie!

[UNIverseVERSE]

In case you haven't realised yet, windows isn't a movie. Avatar isn't a software program.

I am quite aware of that. It doesn't change the fundamental principle -- spending money on something doesn't equate to making it good.

And you can't judge something you haven't seen.

I didn't pass any judgement on Avatar. I just attacked your comment, because I felt it to be baseless.

[Cennazluga]

This film is just "Ferngully: in Space". Of course it's gonna have a little bit of "liberal" bias! Eventually gonna see it, because I quite liked Ferngully as a child. The main character dude was cute and Hexxus was pretty badass. I <3 Tim Curry.

[Cameroi]

So, Avatar is the new hit on the box. The movie was long in the making (actually 10 years, it seems), and a lot of money has been spent for making and promoting it. I watched it. Truly an orgasm for the eye. While the plot is rather flat and full of cliches (not surprisingly), it is also true that the movie is a pioneer of a new age of cinematography. Much has been said about it, from both praisers and critics...but generally it is enjoying high marks http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/avatar/. Mainly for its special animation effects, and the 3D adventure it brings us into. A nice way to spend 3 hours, by any means.

So far, so good...

But here is where we go political.


While Cameron's cinematographic achievement has earned deserved ovations, there are voices that turn the attention to the political side of the movie. Basically, the accusations are as follows...

Accusation 1. Avatar is branded as an obvious leftist, anti-war, anti-industrial, pro-environmentalist propaganda. It is animation, and many children are going to watch it. And they will get brainwashed into the New Age, hippie naturalist agenda of the author(s). Just one more proof that Hollywood is Liberal, etc. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/geoffrey-dickens/2009/12/14/today-james-cameron-reveals-liberal-propaganda-avatar

Accusation 2. Avatar is unpatriotic, un-American and many more "un" things, and above all, un-humanist, because it puts mankind in the position of the bad guys, the oppressor, who is colonising the poor lovely aliens. It is also seen as an allusion to the Iraq War. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100019656/is-avatar-an-attack-on-the-iraq-war/

Accusation 3. Avatar is racist, because, when drawing the above parallel between the human invasion and colonialism, it creates an impression that only the white man (i.e. the humans) possess the ability/capacity to destroy worlds, and respectively to save worlds. The native aliens are obviously not able to save themselves on their own, and they need a white/human to do it for them.

Accusation 4. In the meantime, Avatar promotes reverse racism, because it implants white guilt - humans are the bad guys, they are destroying a beautiful planet and a native civilisation that lives in harmony with nature. "And then there’s his underlying purpose: Avatar is the corniest movie ever made about the white man's need to lose his identity and assuage racial, political, sexual and historical guilt." http://www.nypress.com/article-20710-blue-in-the-face.html

Miscellaneous accusations. For instance, some Indian religious organisations have expressed concerns about the way the movie depicts their religion (I am talking about Hinduism).

And then, there are the most fringe lunatics coming out of the woodwork and telling us that the movie is about population control and the director is an eugenicist. http://www.thestoryofagirl.com/2009/12/20/avatar-propaganda/

Etc, etc.


Being a cinemaniac myself, all this made me thinking. What is going on here? I mean in the world of cinema, and art as a whole? Thus I arrived at a couple of questions that I would like to put here for discussion.

1) How powerful an indoctrination tool is cinema, actually? We have seen many examples, from the early propaganda films during WW2 and beyond, to the modern creations that earn the Oscars. Has the role of cinema as a tool for shaping public perceptions increased with the advance of technology and the globalisation of the media?

2) Is this avoidable? Does the public have any way to protect itself from being indoctrinated by the ideas that are constantly pouring from the screen? And is this necessary at all? I mean...the art and media are part of social life, including politics. It is an open stage for presenting ideas and exposing the public to ideas. In this sense, should we try to resist this phenomenon, or we should embrace its effects, while still remaining capable of critical thinking?

3) Does art/cinema follow the current trends, or does it create them? Does the cinema establishment (producers, directors, writers) actually answer whatever preferences the mainstream public has at the moment, or just the opposite - they are like a powerful mind cabal that has its own agenda and is trying to shape the brains of the "sheeple"? If the former, then isn't this what free market is about (numbers sell)? If the latter, who/what are these working for?

4) What is the reason for the increased polarisation in society recently? People seem to react with much more extreme emotions to nearly everything, especially politics...and yes, also including art, and the cinema in particular. Just remember the Muhammad cartoons. Several Danish embassies in the Muslim world were besieged by angry crowds. Then, there is the movie "300", a clearly cartoonish one, but it was banned in Iran because it was perceived as offensive to the Persian/Iranian culture. There was also the movie "Borat", an apparent spoof, which however caused an angry reaction by the Kazakhs, who said it depicted them in a derogatory way. Even Brokeback Mountain caused outrage with its "apparent promotion of the gay agenda" and "mockery of the traditional American symbols". And now there is Avatar, a nice well thought and well executed high quality fiction 3D animation which again is stirring the passions. What is wrong with people? Or has it always been like that, but we are noticing this just now, because the modern age of global information exposes us to these phenomena worldwide?


This of course could be expanded beyond cinema, it could apply to any kind of art. But, being quite interested in the media, I needed to ask these questions and see your opinions. Avatar comes very timely now, as it was released just after the Copenhagen summit (I am sure it is no coincidence). Being close to the environmentalist ideas myself, it would have been so easy for me to say that the movie is in tune with my convictions, period. But I feel we should be more critical about these things.

And...if anything, the movie is a very good way to kill 3 hours in the theater! So, in case you still haven't seen it, go watch it and then report back!

Or just tell me your opinion on the above issues.

accusations one, two and three, actually sound like reasons i might want to go see it.

people do get their scripts from story telling, at least when they encounter situations they haven't seen dealt with in real life. that's one reason people need to be exposed to a broader, not narrower, diversity of perspectives. those favored by corporate interests are often not those in the best interests of the future well being of the human species, or even life on earth in general.

[Allanea]

It's a blockbuster. One that'll be forgotten in a few years, except for its achievement.

Sad, really.

Cameron had used the anti-corporate theme in Alien and made a great, great movie. This? Meh.

[Station 12]

Welcome to the world of media, where no matter how justified your story is within it's own universe, it will be applied to ours for no reason and then be thought of as biased brainwashing evil.

Is Toy Story evil because it brainwashes children into consumerism or something equally moronic? (haven't used that word in a while, yay)

[The Snake Brotherhood]

I very greatly doubt that their opinions would be swayed by one movie

Who mentioned anything about swaying?

[Kamsaki]

Accusation 2. Avatar is unpatriotic, un-American and many more "un" things, and above all, un-humanist, because it puts mankind in the position of the bad guys, the oppressor, who is colonising the poor lovely aliens. It is also seen as an allusion to the Iraq War. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100019656/is-avatar-an-attack-on-the-iraq-war/

Uh, newsflash? Most of those things have earned such criticism. America, the West, Humanity as a whole, are not essentially good, and demonstrate this fact on a daily basis. Humanity might have the capability for such good, and I believe the possibility for change is there, but as things stand, our societies have more flaws in them than the plots all of James Cameron's films to date combined.

[The Snake Brotherhood]

some people have way too much time on their hands...

Well, it's holiday time, isn't it?

[North Avayu]

When will people learn to read the "Science-Fiction" Description of these sorts of things...it's just a movie probably not ment to insult anybody.

SF has a long and glorious history of making explicit and uncomfortably powerful political commentary.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Science fiction often carries a political message, so why is everyone shocked? Just because a movie isn't all about big explosions and action (and I'm sure Avatar has enough of these, too) like in Transformers, it doesn't mean it's propaganda. I'm sure with some effort you could also interpret a political message into those crappy Transformers movies, it just wouldn't be a liberal one.
That said, I'm going to watch Avatar after Christmas. It will be my first movie in 3d and I hope it is as good as everyone says.

[The Snake Brotherhood]

Is Toy Story evil because it brainwashes children into consumerism or something equally moronic?

That's the very point of this post.

Is it?

Or is it not?

Your take.

[The Snake Brotherhood]

Uh, newsflash?

Uh, I haven't invented those accusations. I only summarised them.

[The Snake Brotherhood]

On accusation two I got to wonder why is a British News paper concerned with Un american things.

No it isn't. The Telegraph quote is used for the "It is also seen as an allusion to the Iraq War" sentence, not for the un-American sentence.

[Vault 10]

1. It's crap.
2. It's crap anyway.
3. It's crap, why do you care?
4. It's crap, who cares?

[Delator]

Welcome to the world of media, where no matter how justified your story is within it's own universe, it will be applied to ours for no reason and then be thought of as biased brainwashing evil.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Vault 10]

But there's no story. Someone has dropped a roll of film into the sewer, then pulled it out, and noticed it's ruined anyway, then decided, "Hey, why throw it out? Why not put it on the screen?"

[Barringtonia]

Ideas don't live in a vacuum, they need to connect in some way to a sentiment or idea existing within shared conscious, so I don't think life follows art, I think art can crystalise a concept into imagery and story and therefore resonate.

Certainly it influences, it presents ideas in digestible form, it's a vehicle for dissemination.

As others point out, how that is received and translated can be very much up to who's watching it.

[Vault 10]

In case you haven't realised yet, windows isn't a movie.

Then how can you call Avatar a movie? Windows is way more interesting. And it even has movie sequences!

[Conserative Morality]

Then how can you call Avatar a movie? Windows is way more interesting. And it even has movie sequences!

Ah, Windows Maze, how I loved thee...

[Risottia]

Accusation 1. Avatar is branded as an obvious leftist, anti-war, anti-industrial, pro-environmentalist propaganda.

I guess that's why a Hollywood major produced it. So they will be toppled by the revolution triggered by it.

Accusation 2. Avatar is unpatriotic, un-American and many more "un" things, and above all, un-humanist

May I add "unoriginal"... both for the movia AND for the accusation.

Accusation 3. Avatar is racist, ...
Accusation 4. In the meantime, Avatar promotes reverse racism...

Miscellaneous accusations. For instance, some Indian religious organisations have expressed concerns about the way the movie depicts their religion (I am talking about Hinduism).

Obvious real-life religious trolls are obviously obvious.

1) How powerful an indoctrination tool is cinema, actually? We have seen many examples, from the early propaganda films during WW2 and beyond, to the modern creations that earn the Oscars. Has the role of cinema as a tool for shaping public perceptions increased with the advance of technology and the globalisation of the media?

Well, yes. I don't think it's the case with an entertainment movie like Avatar - still Mussolini was right in saying "Il cinema è l'arma più forte" (Cinema is the strongest weapon).
Very strong, very envolving, multi-sensory, multi-level one-sided communication...

2) Is this avoidable? ...while still remaining capable of critical thinking?

Precious few people are capable of critical thinking, I'm afraid. Oh well.

3) Does art/cinema follow the current trends, or does it create them? Does the cinema establishment (producers, directors, writers) actually answer whatever preferences the mainstream public has at the moment, or just the opposite - they are like a powerful mind cabal that has its own agenda...

Even if the cinema industries were capable to manipulate minds up to the extent where they can create ALL cultural trends, still we should remember that there are many producers throughout the world... and the Hollywood producers, all put together, are just a minority of the cinema-producing world. Take Bollywood.

4) What is the reason for the increased polarisation in society recently? People seem to react with much more extreme emotions to nearly everything, especially politics...

I think it's mostly an US thing. I mean, Italian politics generate a lot less violence now than in the '70s. Though the level of verbal violence is alarmingly high. That's because showing strong emotions communicates easier than explaining logical arguments - I think it's correlated to the "infotainment" thing.