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Town prayer sessions upheld. SCOTUS 5-4

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Wed May 07, 2014 1:48 pm

Great Nepal wrote:Yes I totally cant see how a prayer led by a clergy, in majority of cases Christian clergy, is endorsement of religion at all. :palm:
I wonder how many times they have called Atheist to open the assembly or how many times they called a Hindu pujari or Buddhist monk or Muslim imam...
Are you actually demanding Affirmative action in regards to prayer?

Like they should bus in hindus from 50 miles away simply to make themselves look more equal?

That's silly.
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Founded: Jun 21, 2012
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Wed May 07, 2014 2:24 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:Yes I totally cant see how a prayer led by a clergy, in majority of cases Christian clergy, is endorsement of religion at all. :palm:
I wonder how many times they have called Atheist to open the assembly or how many times they called a Hindu pujari or Buddhist monk or Muslim imam...
Are you actually demanding Affirmative action in regards to prayer?

Like they should bus in hindus from 50 miles away simply to make themselves look more equal?

That's silly.


No, I don't believe that that was the argument being made.

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MERIZoC
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Founded: Dec 05, 2013
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Postby MERIZoC » Wed May 07, 2014 2:29 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:Yes I totally cant see how a prayer led by a clergy, in majority of cases Christian clergy, is endorsement of religion at all. :palm:
I wonder how many times they have called Atheist to open the assembly or how many times they called a Hindu pujari or Buddhist monk or Muslim imam...
Are you actually demanding Affirmative action in regards to prayer?

Like they should bus in hindus from 50 miles away simply to make themselves look more equal?

That's silly.

Who said that?
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Pope Joan
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Postby Pope Joan » Wed May 07, 2014 2:46 pm

I will let LDS or Jehovah's Witness come in my house and chat me up, precisely because it IS my house and I am the one being hospitable.

I do not appreciate attempting to take part in a public gathering and being subjected to somebody else's idea of how I ought to think and feel.
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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Wed May 07, 2014 3:25 pm

Merizoc wrote:
The Lone Alliance wrote: Are you actually demanding Affirmative action in regards to prayer?

Like they should bus in hindus from 50 miles away simply to make themselves look more equal?

That's silly.

Who said that?


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Strawman Communist
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Founded: May 05, 2014
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Postby Strawman Communist » Wed May 07, 2014 3:34 pm

Death Metal wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Who said that?


James M. Strawman-Leftist.


He's busy. Can I be of assistance, comrade?
Last edited by Strawman Communist on Wed May 07, 2014 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jocabia
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Founded: Mar 25, 2004
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Postby Jocabia » Wed May 07, 2014 3:53 pm

Timothia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
That's why I proposed the 2 minute silence. We DO all have our own beliefs etc. Using a single persons choice of prayer is bad for that reason.

2 minutes of silence during which time the religious can pray, and atheists can simple contemplate existence, serves all parties without discriminating, and without anyone having to reveal their group-loyalties.

I can agree that a two minute period of silence wouldn't be a bad idea. It would be one of the best way of doing things. However, I don't think that having prayers before is unconstitutional. If the meeting wishes to have prayers beforehand, then it is not wrong: not ideal, yes, but also not wrong. If I were the leader of the town session, I would have a two minute silence. But other people are allowed to think differently and arrange things differently: there is nothing inherently wrong with doing things other than the way that you or I would consider best.

What if my belief is not only that I don't agree with you. What if my belief is that what you are doing is sinful and therefore I can't participate.

What if I go to this session of government and I petition to have a law changed or added. Four other people go as well for other things they'd like to change. When the prayer begins, I go quietly into the hallway so I'm not participating. When it's over, I return. I notice as I'm returning one of the council members looking at me and shaking his head. Now, he's only shaking his head because he thinks going in the hallway was silly, but that's not the perception I got. I got the impression that he is now biased against me.

When I get up to present it happens that the same council member who I saw shaking their head is vehemently opposed to my request. Not because I left the room but just that's his belief. However, I now have the impression that I'm not equally protected by my government because I have the wrong religious beliefs.

See, it doesn't matter if they discriminate against me. The fact that it would appear so as a result of the town's participation in a religion that is actively counter to my own is coercive on its own. The next meeting, I might reasonably choose not to leave the room just so as not to experience the same. Now i'm violating my religious beliefs and it's due to the actions of the government in demonstrating to me that it endorses another religion above my own.

How is that religious freedom?
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Jocabia
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Founded: Mar 25, 2004
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Postby Jocabia » Wed May 07, 2014 3:57 pm

Timothia wrote:Never mind, I give up. I forgot how much of NSG was against my beliefs. I'm not going to change your minds and no one is going to back me up. That's fine, you all should just talk to one another about how terrible religion is and how wrong it is for people to pray for success in a government setting. This is why I was hesitant to post in the first place and this is why I should've quit before the uber-liberal posse arrived.

My bad, I should have known better than to challenge the unchanging hive-mind of NSG. Won't happen again any time soon.

What about us Christians who actually read that part of Christ's teaching about praying public? Are we asking for freedom because we hate religion or is it because we love it?
Sgt Toomey wrote:Come to think of it, it would make more sense to hate him for being black. At least its half true..
JJ Place wrote:Sure, the statistics are that a gun is more likely to harm a family member than a criminal

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Great Nepal
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Founded: Jan 11, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Great Nepal » Wed May 07, 2014 5:09 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:Yes I totally cant see how a prayer led by a clergy, in majority of cases Christian clergy, is endorsement of religion at all. :palm:
I wonder how many times they have called Atheist to open the assembly or how many times they called a Hindu pujari or Buddhist monk or Muslim imam...
Are you actually demanding Affirmative action in regards to prayer?

Like they should bus in hindus from 50 miles away simply to make themselves look more equal?

That's silly.

You have got the wrong end of the stick. My point was that this can in no way be neutral in regards to religion by its very nature: atheists dont pray, there are (estimated) around 4,200 religions and most of them are geographically inconveniently located. Therefore this so called "neutral on religious stance" with prayer is simply not feasible therefore it is not really religiously neutral; hence state endorsing and favoring a religious stance over others either deliberately (in regards to atheism) or possibly inadvertently (geographically inconveniently located religions).
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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