Town prayer sessions upheld. SCOTUS 5-4

[New North Aqmuland]

I'm a bit disappointed.

Y'know, separation of church and state and all that jazz. I have a problem with faith affecting our laws.

[Geilinor]

And that relates to Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist how?

It shows that the town council has allowed members of minority religions to say the prayers. No doubt if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist offered to pray, they would be allowed to.

Why would an atheist pray? That's the problem with this. Atheism is a stance on God and religion and should be treated as such. Atheism receive the same protections as Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism.

[Dyakovo]

So NSG what do you say is this good tolerance of religion or is this an impermissible violations of the establishment clause?

The latter.

[Othelos]

They don't have to participate if they don't want to. Nobody's going to care if they don't pray along with the chaplain.

Then they should be allowed to step out of the room during the prayer.

That's so unnecessary. Just keep religion out of the government, like it's supposed to be.

[Elemental North]

Then they should be allowed to step out of the room during the prayer.

That's so unnecessary. Just keep religion out of the government, like it's supposed to be.

Precisely.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Basic group psychology disagrees. That's the point of group rituals.

I get that atheists might feel left out, but getting rid of the hyper-majority's traditions for the sake of a small minority seems a little ridiculous.

It's still an endorsement of religion by the government.

How is acknowledging that religion exists an endorsement of it?

Then they should be allowed to step out of the room during the prayer.

I never said they shouldn't be allowed to. If they want to go outside, that's fine.

[Great Nepal]

And that relates to Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist how?

It shows that the town council has allowed members of minority religions to say the prayers. No doubt if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist offered to pray, they would be allowed to.

No, the council invites clergy to pray they have not done so for these groups; even ignoring fact that atheists wouldn't really pray. Plus I dont think council would do much if they invited every religion to pray: which is only way this will truly be not endorsing any religious stance.

[MERIZoC]

And that relates to Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist how?

It shows that the town council has allowed members of minority religions to say the prayers. No doubt if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist offered to pray, they would be allowed to.

What possible reason would an atheist have for praying?

[Othelos]

Except for the people who don't want to participate, which is the issue.

They don't have to participate if they don't want to. Nobody's going to care if they don't pray along with the chaplain.

The fact that the prayer is taking place as an integral part of the meeting is an issue, because at that point, it's pretty much government sponsored.

[MERIZoC]

Basic group psychology disagrees. That's the point of group rituals.

I get that atheists might feel left out, but getting rid of the hyper-majority's traditions for the sake of a small minority seems a little ridiculous.

It's still an endorsement of religion by the government.

How is acknowledging that religion exists an endorsement of it?

1: People are perfectly able to practice their traditions without government involvement.
2: It's a government-mandated prayer. That's a bit more than an acknowledgment.

[Othelos]

Basic group psychology disagrees. That's the point of group rituals.

I get that atheists might feel left out, but getting rid of the hyper-majority's traditions for the sake of a small minority seems a little ridiculous.

Being part of a majority doesn't give the right to ignore rights.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

The fact that the prayer is taking place as an integral part of the meeting is an issue, because at that point, it's pretty much government sponsored.

Define "integral part". Opening up a ceremony with a prayer doesn't seem like that big a part of the meeting; two friends can have a handshake before a conversation, but that doesn't make it a huge part of the conservation. The meeting itself is what matters, not how people want to open it up.

[Othelos]

The fact that the prayer is taking place as an integral part of the meeting is an issue, because at that point, it's pretty much government sponsored.

Define "integral part". Opening up a ceremony with a prayer doesn't seem like that big a part of the meeting; two friends can have a handshake before a conversation, but that doesn't make it a huge part of the conservation. The meeting itself is what matters, not how people want to open it up.

It's still a part of the meeting.

[The North Polish Union]

It shows that the town council has allowed members of minority religions to say the prayers. No doubt if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist offered to pray, they would be allowed to.

Why would an atheist pray? That's the problem with this. Atheism is a stance on God and religion and should be treated as such. Atheism receive the same protections as Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism.

If your religion (or lack thereof) does not allow you to pray or renders prayer meaningless, there is no reason that the right to pray of other individuals (whose religion does allow/encourage them to pray) should be infringed upon.

It shows that the town council has allowed members of minority religions to say the prayers. No doubt if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist offered to pray, they would be allowed to.

No, the council invites clergy to pray they have not done so for these groups; even ignoring fact that atheists wouldn't really pray. Plus I dont think council would do much if they invited every religion to pray: which is only way this will truly be not endorsing any religious stance.

A Wiccan priestess volunteered to pray and was allowed to. And I don't thing the council was allowing members of every religion to pray before each meeting, just one prayer per meeting (i.e. a Christian prays before one meeting, a Muslim prays before the next, etc.).

[Geilinor]

Basic group psychology disagrees. That's the point of group rituals.

I get that atheists might feel left out, but getting rid of the hyper-majority's traditions for the sake of a small minority seems a little ridiculous.

It's still an endorsement of religion by the government.

How is acknowledging that religion exists an endorsement of it?

Then they should be allowed to step out of the room during the prayer.

I never said they shouldn't be allowed to. If they want to go outside, that's fine.

This is more than an acknowledgment that religion exists. This is government saying that a town meeting cannot start without a prayer.

[New North Aqmuland]

Basic group psychology disagrees. That's the point of group rituals.

I get that atheists might feel left out, but getting rid of the hyper-majority's traditions for the sake of a small minority seems a little ridiculous.

It's still an endorsement of religion by the government.

How is acknowledging that religion exists an endorsement of it?

Then they should be allowed to step out of the room during the prayer.

I never said they shouldn't be allowed to. If they want to go outside, that's fine.

By allowing a prayer before a meeting, it shows a preference towards a religion, something that, though it is not mentioned in the constitution, in the Bill of Rights, it says verbatim this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What this decision did is ignored the bolded part, on which the emphasis is mine. I have a problem with that.

[The North Polish Union]

It shows that the town council has allowed members of minority religions to say the prayers. No doubt if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist offered to pray, they would be allowed to.

What possible reason would an atheist have for praying?

I don't know, but if they offered to, they would be allowed to, and that's the point.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Being part of a majority doesn't give the right to ignore rights.

What rights? People don't have the right not to be offended. Freedom of speech exists, and religious people can't be silenced just because people might get offended by religious expression.

It's still a part of the meeting.

And the problem with that is?

[The 54th Squadron]

Yes! Freedom of Religion wins again!

That's a bad thing, you know.

[Geilinor]

Why would an atheist pray? That's the problem with this. Atheism is a stance on God and religion and should be treated as such. Atheism receive the same protections as Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism.

If your religion (or lack thereof) does not allow you to pray or renders prayer meaningless, there is no reason that the right to pray of other individuals (whose religion does allow/encourage them to pray) should be infringed upon.

This isn't the right to pray. This is the government mandating that a prayer be said. If you yourself want to pray before the session starts, you can.

[Geilinor]

Being part of a majority doesn't give the right to ignore rights.

What rights? People don't have the right not to be offended. Freedom of speech exists, and religious people can't be silenced just because people might get offended by religious expression.

It's still a part of the meeting.

And the problem with that is?

The freedom of speech is not absolute.

[MERIZoC]

Why would an atheist pray? That's the problem with this. Atheism is a stance on God and religion and should be treated as such. Atheism receive the same protections as Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism.

If your religion (or lack thereof) does not allow you to pray or renders prayer meaningless, there is no reason that the right to pray of other individuals (whose religion does allow/encourage them to pray) should be infringed upon.

Atheism doesn't "not allow" us to pray. That makes no sense. And no, their right shouldn't be infringed upon. They are free to pray at almost any other time.

[The North Polish Union]

I get that atheists might feel left out, but getting rid of the hyper-majority's traditions for the sake of a small minority seems a little ridiculous.


How is acknowledging that religion exists an endorsement of it?


I never said they shouldn't be allowed to. If they want to go outside, that's fine.

This is more than an acknowledgment that religion exists. This is government saying that a town meeting cannot start without a prayer.

No, its saying that a town meeting may start with a prayer, not that it cannot start without a prayer. Nowhere does the ruling stipulate that town meetings must start with a prayer, rather, it leaves the decision to the town to choose whether or not to start with a prayer.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

This is more than an acknowledgment that religion exists. This is government saying that a town meeting cannot start without a prayer.

Alright, I'll concede that forcing meetings to start with prayers is taking things a little too far, but if the majority of people in the town want to hold prayers at their meetings, they should be allowed to.

[New Acardia]

Good I am glad to hear it