Town prayer sessions upheld. SCOTUS 5-4

[Neutraligon]

Greed here's the problem with the not forced to be there idea. A townhall meeting is a chance for the citizens to directly contact their representatives. By saying they don't have to attend you are also removing one more avenue for them to discuss their feelings and issues in a public setting. In legislative sessions, the public may watch, but they do not directly participate.

[Ostroeuropa]

Greed here's the problem with the not forced to be there idea. A townhall meeting is a chance for the citizens to directly contact their representatives. By saying they don't have to attend you are also removing one more avenue for them to discuss their feelings and issues in a public setting. In legislative sessions, the public may watch, but they do not directly participate.

You don't HAVE to be a witness at a trial(ignoring that in some cases, you do, I think most people would like to be witnesses if they witnessed the crime because justice.) , you just have to declare your allegiance to allah before you can be.

[Baader-Meinhof Gruppe]

Greed here's the problem with the not forced to be there idea. A townhall meeting is a chance for the citizens to directly contact their representatives. By saying they don't have to attend you are also removing one more avenue for them to discuss their feelings and issues in a public setting. In legislative sessions, the public may watch, but they do not directly participate.

You don't HAVE to be a witness at a trial, you just have to declare your allegiance to allah before you can be.

You do have to answer the summons though. Doesn't mean you have to testify, but you do have to answer the summons

[Ostroeuropa]

You don't HAVE to be a witness at a trial, you just have to declare your allegiance to allah before you can be.

You do have to answer the summons though.

Well quite. Pointed that out in an edit.
It's analagous to attending a public meeting.

Most people (I think) don't mind being witnesses at trials if they actually witnessed the crime, because justice.
Same for people attending town meetings. They know about an issue, and want to see it rectified.
Forcing them to pray to allah beforehand is problematic.

[Greed and Death]

So since you are not required to serve as an elected official, you are not required to sit through meetings opened with a prayer ?

That's not even the point of the objection. People are objecting because it's an endorsement of religion.

And let's be honest; if this was Dearborn and it was Muslim prayer, the five that upheld this law would strike it down faster than you can blink.

Again read up the quote chain, he wanted to know if this reversed the school prayer ruling, so I explained how this differed from school prayer.

As for you comment on lack of protection for minority religion, an extreme minority religion was protected in Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal, 546 U.S. 418 (2006). How extremely minority ? Let's just say an indigenous(arguably new age indigenous) religion from Brazil, that believed in using hallucinogenic drugs.

Also we have County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, 492 U.S. 573 (1989), where conservative members of the court voted for the constitutionality of a public menorah display. So clearly they do protect other religions than Christianity.

[The Scientific States]

Yes! Freedom of Religion wins again!

Freedom of religion lost.

[Greed and Death]

Greed here's the problem with the not forced to be there idea. A townhall meeting is a chance for the citizens to directly contact their representatives. By saying they don't have to attend you are also removing one more avenue for them to discuss their feelings and issues in a public setting. In legislative sessions, the public may watch, but they do not directly participate.

You can also write them a letter, or attend their campaign events, or make an appointment to talk with them in their office( really easy for municipal government). Attending a city council meeting is but one small way to be involved. If the prayer really bothers and you really need to be at the meeting you that much just attend the meetings a little late after the prayer is done.

If you were required to pray or listen to someone pray before voting I would be all with you. But you are not.

[Neutraligon]

Greed here's the problem with the not forced to be there idea. A townhall meeting is a chance for the citizens to directly contact their representatives. By saying they don't have to attend you are also removing one more avenue for them to discuss their feelings and issues in a public setting. In legislative sessions, the public may watch, but they do not directly participate.

You can also write them a letter, or attend their campaign events, or make an appointment to talk with them in their office( really easy for municipal government). Attending a city council meeting is but one small way to be involved. If the prayer really bothers and you really need to be at the meeting you that much just attend the meetings a little late after the prayer is done.

If you were required to pray or listen to someone pray before voting I would be all with you. But you are not.

But you cannot do these things in public. The letter is private, so is the meeting. The campaign event is not geared towards answering detailed or specific questions. So now you are forcing people to arrive late at the meeting? Brilliant. Public meetings like this are one of the few ways a person can get their issues heard by many people. It is one of the few ways to air grievances in public, without having to campaign.

[Greed and Death]

You can also write them a letter, or attend their campaign events, or make an appointment to talk with them in their office( really easy for municipal government). Attending a city council meeting is but one small way to be involved. If the prayer really bothers and you really need to be at the meeting you that much just attend the meetings a little late after the prayer is done.

If you were required to pray or listen to someone pray before voting I would be all with you. But you are not.

But you cannot do these things in public. The letter is private, so is the meeting. The campaign event is not geared towards answering detailed or specific questions. So now you are forcing people to arrive late at the meeting? Brilliant. Public meetings like this are one of the few ways a person can get their issues heard by many people. It is one of the few ways to air grievances in public, without having to campaign.

Arrive late, sit out in the hallway, or just learn to be an adult and accept elected people may have beliefs that differ from yours and sit quietly through that old guy's prayer.

[Bezombia]

But you cannot do these things in public. The letter is private, so is the meeting. The campaign event is not geared towards answering detailed or specific questions. So now you are forcing people to arrive late at the meeting? Brilliant. Public meetings like this are one of the few ways a person can get their issues heard by many people. It is one of the few ways to air grievances in public, without having to campaign.

Arrive late, sit out in the hallway, or just learn to be an adult and accept elected people may have beliefs that differ from yours and sit quietly through that old guy's prayer.

Why should we have to? Why should we have to be shoved into the corner and have the Establishment Clause be shit all over while everyone else does whatever the fuck they want?

[MERIZoC]

But you cannot do these things in public. The letter is private, so is the meeting. The campaign event is not geared towards answering detailed or specific questions. So now you are forcing people to arrive late at the meeting? Brilliant. Public meetings like this are one of the few ways a person can get their issues heard by many people. It is one of the few ways to air grievances in public, without having to campaign.

Arrive late, sit out in the hallway, or just learn to be an adult and accept elected people may have beliefs that differ from yours and sit quietly through that old guy's prayer.

So why aren't other people's views being respected? Why, after the Christian prayer, isn't there a Muslim prayer? Or a Hindu prayer?

[Greed and Death]

Arrive late, sit out in the hallway, or just learn to be an adult and accept elected people may have beliefs that differ from yours and sit quietly through that old guy's prayer.

So why aren't other people's views being respected? Why, after the Christian prayer, isn't there a Muslim prayer? Or a Hindu prayer?

Get elected and I am sure you could arrange to have one.

[Silent Majority]

I think one might want to try with a Democrat-majority court and take out the biggest one... Congressional Prayer.

Dems wouldn't get rid of Congressional prayers.

Especially if they keep up the current trend of only nominating centrist judges

[Great Nepal]

So why aren't other people's views being respected? Why, after the Christian prayer, isn't there a Muslim prayer? Or a Hindu prayer?

Get elected and I am sure you could arrange to have one.

Because freedom of religion is just a guideline that can be overlooked by simple majority, quite obviously.

[Othelos]

So NSG what do you say is this good tolerance of religion or is this an impermissible violations of the establishment clause?

If the prayer is sponsored by the town, it violates the establishment clause. School prayers sponsored by the school were outlawed in Engel vs. Vitale a while ago, so I'm not sure how this ruling makes sense in light of the other.

[Roan Cara]

I love the double standard I see here all the time. So basically it is more than fine for non christians to protest all kinds of christian things but let a christian protest anything or stand up for their beliefs about anything and everyone is butthurt about it. Now me, I am my own Person and my own Christian I do not go for alot of the very stereotypical views christians get foisted with on this site such as the whole anti gay thing or the abortion thing etc but I do think that people who have those beliefs have just as much right to express them and stand for them as you all do to express your beliefs and opinions. In this case, I wonder how many of the people who attend these meetings are christian or just agnostic and just plain don't care if there is a prayer or not and that being the case why on earth is it anyone elses business? especially if they don't live in that town or community? how is it their business?

[Bezombia]

I love the double standard I see here all the time. So basically it is more than fine for non christians to protest all kinds of christian things but let a christian protest anything or stand up for their beliefs about anything and everyone is butthurt about it. Now me, I am my own Person and my own Christian I do not go for alot of the very stereotypical views christians get foisted with on this site such as the whole anti gay thing or the abortion thing etc but I do think that people who have those beliefs have just as much right to express them and stand for them as you all do to express your beliefs and opinions. In this case, I wonder how many of the people who attend these meetings are christian or just agnostic and just plain don't care if there is a prayer or not and that being the case why on earth is it anyone elses business? especially if they don't live in that town or community? how is it their business?

inB4 "americuh has christain roots"
inB4 "most americuhns are christain"
inB4 "freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion"
inB4 Shie

I think I've covered all the usually responses.

[Azinar]

But you cannot do these things in public. The letter is private, so is the meeting. The campaign event is not geared towards answering detailed or specific questions. So now you are forcing people to arrive late at the meeting? Brilliant. Public meetings like this are one of the few ways a person can get their issues heard by many people. It is one of the few ways to air grievances in public, without having to campaign.

Arrive late, sit out in the hallway, or just learn to be an adult and accept elected people may have beliefs that differ from yours and sit quietly through that old guy's prayer.

Ostroeuropa made a good point a few posts ago about sitting through the prayer. By declining to involve yourself in the prayer you are setting yourself apart from the rest of the group. This can create tension and make it more difficult to get people to listen to your ideas.

And why do the people who don't want to pray have to arrive late or sit out and exclude themselves? Why not the people who want to pray arrive early or pray outside in the hall? The prayer is an addition to the meeting, not a key part of it.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Good. Just because a few atheists don't like hearing prayers doesn't give them the right to stop other people from praying. If they don't want to do it, they don't have to; the United States has freedom of religion and freedom of expression, and people have the right to pray in public if they want to, and no matter how offended atheists and anti-theists might be by it, they don't have the right to stop it.

[Othelos]

Good. Just because a few atheists don't like hearing prayers doesn't give them the right to stop other people from praying. If they don't want to do it, they don't have to; the United States has freedom of religion and freedom of expression, and people have the right to pray in public if they want to, and no matter how offended atheists and anti-theists might be by it, they don't have the right to stop it.

People do have a right to stop government sponsored prayer. The precedent was established with Engel vs. Vitale, which barred administrative-sponsored prayer in schools.

[Ostroeuropa]

Arrive late, sit out in the hallway, or just learn to be an adult and accept elected people may have beliefs that differ from yours and sit quietly through that old guy's prayer.

Ostroeuropa made a good point a few posts ago about sitting through the prayer. By declining to involve yourself in the prayer you are setting yourself apart from the rest of the group. This can create tension and make it more difficult to get people to listen to your ideas.

And why do the people who don't want to pray have to arrive late or sit out and exclude themselves? Why not the people who want to pray arrive early or pray outside in the hall? The prayer is an addition to the meeting, not a key part of it.

I should note that I consider it just as much a faux-pas for the religious to initiate the prayer knowing there are some who will not join in.
I don't think we need concern ourselves with minor faux-pas, but rather the detrimental psychological effects on the meeting.
The point of the exercise, it seems obvious to me at least, is group-bonding and solidarity. It is no longer fit for purpose.

Is it that Christians only wish to bond with other Christians and have no inclination to change the official state rituals to include others?
I have trouble believing that is their conscious decision.
Nonetheless, it is the actual effect of a christian public prayer policy.

There is nothing about a group prayer that is of any particular theological use. No christian I know professes that group prayer is a necessary component to their religion, or even a necessary expression of it. The rationale for public ritual is very obvious, and it's the one I outlined. It's use is entirely social and practical. Nonetheless, by making the group bonding ritual one that does not in fact bridge our differences and unite us in a common purpose, instead only uniting a subsection of the society and utilizing group psychology to pit that subsection against another, the religious have abandoned it's practicality to opt for blatant endorsement of christianity.
There is no reason this should continue.
Everyones professed interests are served by an official silence. The only people who benefit from a public christian prayer instead of an official silence are people attempting to cast religious minorities and atheists in a negative light, and to leverage identity politics for political gain unrelated to them.

[Bezombia]

Good. Just because a few atheists don't like hearing prayers doesn't give them the right to stop other people from praying. If they don't want to do it, they don't have to; the United States has freedom of religion and freedom of expression, and people have the right to pray in public if they want to, and no matter how offended atheists and anti-theists might be by it, they don't have the right to stop it.

If we can't force our views down your throat, why can you force your views down ours?

[Fascist Russian Empire]

People do have a right to stop government sponsored prayer. The precedent was established with Engel vs. Vitale, which barred administrative-sponsored prayer in schools.

Engle vs. Vitale bans prayer in school, and has nothing to do with people praying in government buildings.

If we can't force our views down your throat, why can you force your views down ours?

Nobody is forcing jack shit down your throat by holding non-sectarian, non-mandated prayer. Unless you get forced to do something, you just have to deal with the fact that freedom of speech and freedom of religion means people can pray whenever they want, government property or not.

[Cetacea]

Arrive late, sit out in the hallway, or just learn to be an adult and accept elected people may have beliefs that differ from yours and sit quietly through that old guy's prayer.

Ostroeuropa made a good point a few posts ago about sitting through the prayer. By declining to involve yourself in the prayer you are setting yourself apart from the rest of the group. This can create tension and make it more difficult to get people to listen to your ideas.

And why do the people who don't want to pray have to arrive late or sit out and exclude themselves? Why not the people who want to pray arrive early or pray outside in the hall? The prayer is an addition to the meeting, not a key part of it.

I believe the SCOTUS view was that the prayer was a ceremonial part of the meeting amd everyone had the same choice to participate or not. No one is being forced to not sit in and equally noone is being forced to not pray . Everyone gets the same choice. Everybody wins:)

And sure I've seen Muslim, Bahai and Wiccan prayer to at council meetings ( not in US though)

[Bezombia]

Nobody is forcing jack shit down your throat by holding non-sectarian, non-mandated prayer. Unless you get forced to do something, you just have to deal with the fact that freedom of speech and freedom of religion means people can pray whenever they want, government property or not.

Bullshit. Respecting the establishment of religion is a violation of the constitution, and no "but muh expression!!1!" is ever going to change that. I would be in total support of the "two minutes of group silence" that was suggested above, but actual open law-mandated prayer is very much illegal and it scares me that the SCOTUS didn't strike it down.