Enver Hoxha: Evil Dictator or Hero of the Proletariat?

[Dejanic]

Only those who resist the dictatorship of the proletariat with force. Those who resisted without force would be either arrested or otherwise forced to work. Everyone else would experience socialism though.

Why should that be the case? You claim to believe in a ideology that champions equality and fairness, but arresting those who disagree with you is neither equal or fair.

I don't know what UMN's definition of "resistance without force" is, but I'm going to assume he means physical resistance that doesn't involve actual violence. So certain business owners refusing to give up their property or land to the community, but not actually using violence. I don't think he advocates thought policing.

[United Marxist Nations]

It's not because they disagree, but because they are obstructing the operation of the system.

No. In your mind they're doing that by disagreeing.

You disagree with the current free market system, but nobody is arresting you or forcing you to work. I doubt you'd want that, so why should something like that happen to others if socialism were implemented?

I said resisting, not disagreeing.

[The Scientific States]

No. In your mind they're doing that by disagreeing.

You disagree with the current free market system, but nobody is arresting you or forcing you to work. I doubt you'd want that, so why should something like that happen to others if socialism were implemented?

I said resisting, not disagreeing.

You said resisting without force. That's essentially disagreeing.

[United Marxist Nations]

Why should that be the case? You claim to believe in a ideology that champions equality and fairness, but arresting those who disagree with you is neither equal or fair.

I don't know what UMN's definition of "resistance without force" is, but I'm going to assume he means physical resistance that doesn't involve actual violence. So certain business owners refusing to give up their property or land to the community, but not actually using violence. I don't think he advocates thought policing.

You got it.

[United Marxist Nations]

I said resisting, not disagreeing.

You said resisting without force. That's essentially disagreeing.

No, it isn't.

[The Scientific States]

I don't know what UMN's definition of "resistance without force" is, but I'm going to assume he means physical resistance that doesn't involve actual violence. So certain business owners refusing to give up their property or land to the community, but not actually using violence. I don't think he advocates thought policing.

You got it.

Again, not seeing why someone should be arrested for that. I think it would be rational for a business owner who worked extremely hard building his business to not want to give it up.

[The Scientific States]

You said resisting without force. That's essentially disagreeing.

No, it isn't.

Then I read your post wrong. Sorry.

[United Marxist Nations]

You got it.

Again, not seeing why someone should be arrested for that. I think it would be rational for a business owner who worked extremely hard building his business to not want to give it up.

They don't have to, they can remain in the business as a part of the workers of it.

[The Scientific States]

Again, not seeing why someone should be arrested for that. I think it would be rational for a business owner who worked extremely hard building his business to not want to give it up.

They don't have to, they can remain in the business as a part of the workers of it.

So, essentially go from the owner of a business who worked hard to build it, to a employee? How's that fair?

[United Marxist Nations]

They don't have to, they can remain in the business as a part of the workers of it.

So, essentially go from the owner of a business who worked hard to build it, to a employee? How's that fair?

The workers worked just as hard to build it.

[Dejanic]

They don't have to, they can remain in the business as a part of the workers of it.

So, essentially go from the owner of a business who worked hard to build it, to a employee? How's that fair?

Well you're now questioning the basic principles of Socialism. If a debate on that issue is wanted, it's probably wise you or UMN make a thread on it, instead of letting that kettle of fish onto this thread.

[Mormak]

So, essentially go from the owner of a business who worked hard to build it, to a employee? How's that fair?

The workers worked just as hard to build it.

That's the theory anyway. Never seen it true in practice.

[The Scientific States]

So, essentially go from the owner of a business who worked hard to build it, to a employee? How's that fair?

Well you're now questioning the basic principles of Socialism. If a debate on that issue is wanted, it's probably wise you or UMN make a thread on it, instead of letting that kettle of fish onto this thread.

Yeah, I don't want to derail the thread.

[Duvniask]

No.

It may not be the "dictatorship of the proletariat" that exists in your head, but that's how it exists in the real world. They just happen to go together like that.

Simplified, the dictatorship of the proletariat is just the working class in control of the political apparatus. If the working class is not the dominant political power, then it doesn't qualify.

One example was the Paris Commune, which served to significantly influence Marx. He also expected such circumstances would be repeated elsewhere in future revolutions, and he was right. The legacy was continued on a nation-wide scale by the anarcho-syndicalists of the Spanish Revolution, where they were actively implementing the dictatorship of the proletariat in the form of federalism and participatory democracy.

[The Serbian Empire]

A good excellent leader save for his ridiculous total of bunkers pockmarking Albania like concrete mushrooms. The actions of improving literacy and nearly doubling Albanian life expectancy with his modernization policies make him a hero.

[Riasy]

Hoxha was better than Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Il-sung with his kin. On the other hand he was worse than Fidel Castro, Tito and Khrushchev. I guess he was slightly worse than your average "socialist dictator". But his rule was still definitely very good for Albania, so I vote for him.

---

Technically, free elections were not held because the Party argued that they had a better system for ensuring the government represented the interests of the workers. They pointed out that the vast majority of Party members, including the top leaders of the Soviet Union, started life as poor factory workers. This was true (except for Gorbachev, actually). Stalin himself had probably been the poorest of them all, as the son of a destitute shoe-maker from the fringes of the Empire. So the argument was that they were "men of the people" who knew the life of a common worker and could therefore be trusted to represent the interests of common workers more than those privileged rich kids who always win elections in the West.

That was the argument, anyway.

No, the real exceptions were Lenin and Malenkov.

Lenin was born in the upper middle-class family and never experienced real poverty. Also another Soviet leader, Malenkov, was from the family of prosperous peasants. On the other hand Gorbachev was born during the Collectivization in the family of collectivized peasants, and this automatically means that his family was extremely poor at that time. In his teens he has operated combined harvesters at collectivized farm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin#Chil ... E2.80.9387
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malenkov#Early_life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev# ... sonal_life

[Starkmoor]

A good excellent leader save for his ridiculous total of bunkers pockmarking Albania like concrete mushrooms. The actions of improving literacy and nearly doubling Albanian life expectancy with his modernization policies make him a hero.

This, although he was somewhat justified with the bunkers given the location of Albania and the imperialism of the USSR in the Brezhnev era. He didn't want a replay of Czechoslovakia, 1968. He was never going to have enough personnel to resist the Soviet army in such a scenario, so the next logical step is defensive fortifications and maximizing a built environment that would stand up to a crapload of tanks.

[Senyosu]

A good excellent leader save for his ridiculous total of bunkers pockmarking Albania like concrete mushrooms. The actions of improving literacy and nearly doubling Albanian life expectancy with his modernization policies make him a hero.

Still, he was a paranoid dictator.

[The Scientific States]

A good excellent leader save for his ridiculous total of bunkers pockmarking Albania like concrete mushrooms. The actions of improving literacy and nearly doubling Albanian life expectancy with his modernization policies make him a hero.

Are you serious? I thought you were a libertarian...

[Senyosu]

A good excellent leader save for his ridiculous total of bunkers pockmarking Albania like concrete mushrooms. The actions of improving literacy and nearly doubling Albanian life expectancy with his modernization policies make him a hero.

Are you serious? I thought you were a libertarian...

Hoxha was better than Mao for those very reasons, and I agree with him ish.

But then again, I is not libertarian.

[The Scientific States]

Are you serious? I thought you were a libertarian...

Hoxha was better than Mao for those very reasons, and I agree with him ish.

But then again, I is not libertarian.

Hoxha was better than Mao, but that's not saying much. Yeah, he improved the literacy rate and women's rights, but to only recognize him for that would be cherry picking.

[Senyosu]

Hoxha was better than Mao for those very reasons, and I agree with him ish.

But then again, I is not libertarian.

Hoxha was better than Mao, but that's not saying much. Yeah, he improved the literacy rate and women's rights, but to only recognize him for that would be cherry picking.

I love to pick them cherries, then eat them whole, then choke on the seeds.

[Dangelia]

As an Albanian who's parents and grandparents lived in Albania, I will say that Enver Hoxha did help the country in someplace ways ( e.g. Literacy rate, industrialization, streets were safe) but his cons outweigh his pros by a lot. He was an egotistic, oprressive dictator who should not be glorified, honored, or even respected any more than the lowliest of human beings deserve.

[Tyviskia]

IMO He was a bit of both.

[Jinwoy]

The workers worked just as hard to build it.

That's the theory anyway. Never seen it true in practice.

Employees don't help build a business? Are you actually serious right now?