Was East Germany worse than Nazi Germany?

[The Republic of Llamas]

No. Significantly lower death toll from Crimes Against Humanity.

[Britannic Realms]

Nazi Germany was OK for white, straight, non-Jewish people, but it was absolute hell for the rest.

East Germany was equally miserable for everyone but the ruling class.

I think I'll say that Nazi Germany was worse.

It was hell for everybody, really. At least when the gears of war started properly turning. I mean, there was fire, destruction, ruins, rape, all that was lacking was the devil himself.

Quite. I forgot about the... problems they faced when the Red Army came knocking. And the bombers.

[Herrebrugh]

It was hell for everybody, really. At least when the gears of war started properly turning. I mean, there was fire, destruction, ruins, rape, all that was lacking was the devil himself.

And even before the wars, people seem to forget the technological and economic differences between the two states. As far as I know few people starved in the later years of the DDR.

I doubt they ever really did. Maybe I'm forgetting some time in the late fourties/fifties. In that light life in the GDR wasn't too bad - also in comparisment with other eastern block states. It was far from ideal, though. And the government was - needless to say - absolute shit.

[Jordsindia]

What I am saying is Pre-war Nazi Germany was better than Cold War East Germany.

It really wasn't.

Elaborate.

[The New Lowlands]

And even before the wars, people seem to forget the technological and economic differences between the two states. As far as I know few people starved in the later years of the DDR.

I doubt they ever really did. Maybe I'm forgetting some time in the late fourties/fifties. In that light life in the GDR wasn't too bad - also in comparisment with other eastern block states. It was far from ideal, though. And the government was - needless to say - absolute shit.

Well, yes, of course. I don't think anyone regrets Kohl signing the DDR's obituary.

[Divair2]

It really wasn't.

Elaborate.

Life might've been pretty bad in East Germany, but it didn't go through mass discrimination and murder. Pre-war Nazi Germany was a utopia if you were a far-right Nazi straight Christian white male. Everyone else was discriminated against or killed.

[Mormak]

Do they need to? To answer the statement posed however.

Literal death camps designed at extermination of an ethic population? no. Were Germans worked to death, imprisoned, forced into slave labor and died in bondage? Yes. And this is not mentioning the millions that were deported into the USSR and worked to death, sent to gulags or returned to their country 15 years after the war.

Not drawing comparison between the two states at the moment, but forcing more then a hundred thousand citizens, POWs and conscripts into digging up Uranium and the conditions and work being comparable to Gulags and death marches seems to me to be genocide by negligence rather then design or intent.

yes. in order to be worse than a state with literal death camps you probably need a few of your own.

are you just complaining about how mean the USSR was then blaimg east germany for things that happened before it existed?

genocide requires intent.

Did i not just state that i wasn't drawing comparison? But i think labeling a State that had thousands of people dying worked to death as slaves is hardly anything to defend.

No i am merely listing more War Crimes and crimes against humanity by a regime that was filled by them.

Debatable, Negligence can be counted as grounds for murder in courts, i see no reason why you cannot apply the scale to a wider system of murder even with out organized intention.

[Russian Socialist Soviet States]

Elaborate.

Life might've been pretty bad in East Germany, but it didn't go through mass discrimination and murder. Pre-war Nazi Germany was a utopia if you were a far-right Nazi straight Christian white male. Everyone else was discriminated against or killed.

Religion (other then Judaism) didn't define you in Nazi Germany. They were officially secular.

[The New Lowlands]

Life might've been pretty bad in East Germany, but it didn't go through mass discrimination and murder. Pre-war Nazi Germany was a utopia if you were a far-right Nazi straight Christian white male. Everyone else was discriminated against or killed.

Religion (other then Judaism) didn't define you in Nazi Germany. They were officially secular.

... Were they? Hitler made several statements backing Christianity against the 'godless bolsheviks' et al.

[Pandeeria]

Life might've been pretty bad in East Germany, but it didn't go through mass discrimination and murder. Pre-war Nazi Germany was a utopia if you were a far-right Nazi straight Christian white male. Everyone else was discriminated against or killed.

Religion (other then Judaism) didn't define you in Nazi Germany. They were officially secular.

Hardly.

[Russian Socialist Soviet States]

Religion (other then Judaism) didn't define you in Nazi Germany. They were officially secular.

... Were they? Hitler made several statements backing Christianity against the 'godless bolsheviks' et al.

They didn't have an official religion. Hitler was a non-practicing Catholic. Martin Bormann was an atheist.

[Herrebrugh]

I doubt they ever really did. Maybe I'm forgetting some time in the late fourties/fifties. In that light life in the GDR wasn't too bad - also in comparisment with other eastern block states. It was far from ideal, though. And the government was - needless to say - absolute shit.

Well, yes, of course. I don't think anyone regrets Kohl signing the DDR's obituary.

I wouldn't say that too loud. Quite a few former GDR people have a sence of ostalgia. Not really surprising. When you look at a map of poverty in Germany by Bundesstaaten, you see the former GDR turn up in red...

[Divair2]

Life might've been pretty bad in East Germany, but it didn't go through mass discrimination and murder. Pre-war Nazi Germany was a utopia if you were a far-right Nazi straight Christian white male. Everyone else was discriminated against or killed.

Religion (other then Judaism) didn't define you in Nazi Germany. They were officially secular.

Right.. that's why they banned any secular or atheistic organizations, right?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nfQ0 ... &q&f=false

The Nazis were based on a weird mix of Christianity and German paganism. Jewish? Fucked. Atheist? Fucked.

[Mormak]

Religion (other then Judaism) didn't define you in Nazi Germany. They were officially secular.

Right.. that's why they banned any secular or atheistic organizations, right?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nfQ0 ... &q&f=false

Aww, Incapable of seeing the page.

[The New Lowlands]

Well, yes, of course. I don't think anyone regrets Kohl signing the DDR's obituary.

I wouldn't say that too loud. Quite a few former GDR people have a sence of ostalgia. Not really surprising. When you look at a map of poverty in Germany by Bundesstaaten, you see the former GDR turn up in red...

Still much richer than they were before. All the cosmopolitan Ossies went West.

[Alyakia]

yes. in order to be worse than a state with literal death camps you probably need a few of your own.

are you just complaining about how mean the USSR was then blaimg east germany for things that happened before it existed?

genocide requires intent.

Did i not just state that i wasn't drawing comparison? But i think labeling a State that had thousands of people dying worked to death as slaves is hardly anything to defend.

No i am merely listing more War Crimes and crimes against humanity by a regime that was filled by them.

Debatable, Negligence can be counted as grounds for murder in courts, i see no reason why you cannot apply the scale to a wider system of murder even with out organized intention.

i'd be interested if you had any actual cases of that. negligent homicide maybe, but not murder, and if so definitely not first degree murder. second degree genocide would be an interesting concept i suppose.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

Hitler Germany's entire existance depended on war, so this is just a little bit irrelevant.

What I am saying is Pre-war Nazi Germany was better than Cold War East Germany.

Before the war Germany invaded Austria and Czechoslovakia.

[Jordsindia]

Elaborate.

Life might've been pretty bad in East Germany, but it didn't go through mass discrimination and murder. Pre-war Nazi Germany was a utopia if you were a far-right Nazi straight Christian white male. Everyone else was discriminated against or killed.

The murder of Jews and others did not start until 'The Final Solution' during WW2. They were forced into camps and was used as slave labor, and many people died because of this, but they were not trying to wipe them out entirely at the time.

I rank pre-war Nazi Germany higher because life was fairly decent for the most part for the white Germans, whereas everyone was oppressed equally in east Germany.

[Divair2]

Life might've been pretty bad in East Germany, but it didn't go through mass discrimination and murder. Pre-war Nazi Germany was a utopia if you were a far-right Nazi straight Christian white male. Everyone else was discriminated against or killed.

The murder of Jews and others did not start until 'The Final Solution' during WW2. They were forced into camps and was used as slave labor, and many people died because of this, but they were not trying to wipe them out entirely at the time.

I rank pre-war Nazi Germany higher because life was fairly decent for the most part for the white Germans, whereas everyone was oppressed equally in east Germany.

If they weren't leftists. Or women. Or gay. Or disabled. Or Jewish. Or atheists.

[Herrebrugh]

I wouldn't say that too loud. Quite a few former GDR people have a sence of ostalgia. Not really surprising. When you look at a map of poverty in Germany by Bundesstaaten, you see the former GDR turn up in red...

Still much richer than they were before. All the cosmopolitan Ossies went West.

Much? Probably not. Sure, they can buy some more stuff, but in other regards things haven't changed too much. As I've heard an Ossi say, yes, now they're allowed to cross the old borders and have "freedom" in that sense, but if you cannot afford to, you don't have that freedom at all. Only the rich have freedom to go where they want.

[Mormak]

Did i not just state that i wasn't drawing comparison? But i think labeling a State that had thousands of people dying worked to death as slaves is hardly anything to defend.

No i am merely listing more War Crimes and crimes against humanity by a regime that was filled by them.

Debatable, Negligence can be counted as grounds for murder in courts, i see no reason why you cannot apply the scale to a wider system of murder even with out organized intention.

i'd be interested if you had any actual cases of that. negligent homicide maybe, but not murder, and if so definitely not first degree murder. second degree genocide would be an interesting concept i suppose.

Wouldn't it though?

[Connahkstan]

What an interesting and though-provoking question. Problem is, we don't know, because the Soviets were terribly bad record keepers. We do know, that Stalin had a penchant for killing minorities, majorities, or whatever he felt like killing, hell, he probably killed more people than Hitler. However, Nazi Germany didn't get food and fuel airlifted so, Nazi Germany was probably worse.

[Herrebrugh]

What an interesting and though-provoking question. Problem is, we don't know, because the Soviets were terribly bad record keepers. We do know, that Stalin had a penchant for killing minorities, majorities, or whatever he felt like killing, hell, he probably killed more people than Hitler. However, Nazi Germany didn't get food and fuel airlifted so, Nazi Germany was probably worse.

Why wouldn't we be able to know which one is worse because "the Soviets were terrible bad record keepers"? Is there some kind of second shoa that has been casually moved out of sight or something?

[Constantinopolis]

Nazi Germany was OK for white, straight, non-Jewish people, but it was absolute hell for the rest.

No, it was hell for white, straight, non-Jewish people as well, seeing how they were sent to die in war and/or had their homes and families destroyed by the war.

And we can't just ignore the war when talking about life in Nazi Germany. Fully HALF of Nazi Germany's entire existence was spent at war, and the other half was spent preparing for the war. And a major part of Hitler's appeal was demanding vengeance for the outcome of the previous war. Nazism without war wouldn't be Nazism.

[Russian Socialist Soviet States]

Religion (other then Judaism) didn't define you in Nazi Germany. They were officially secular.

Right.. that's why they banned any secular or atheistic organizations, right?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nfQ0 ... &q&f=false

The Nazis were based on a weird mix of Christianity and German paganism. Jewish? Fucked. Atheist? Fucked.

They banned them for promoting communism. Martin Bormann was an atheist.