Seat Belts Shouldn't Be Mandatory

[Galloism]

Define "ordinary driver".

A regular person with a driver's license and without any particular driver training. Or, the bear minimum that person's state of residence requires to be licensed.

So the minimum driver is what you mean.

Probably once or twice a year, if I had to hazard a guess.

[Bythibus]

Actually, it can. In an extreme cornering situation or a slide, the force acting on the driver can be sufficient to move the driver away from the controls.

Being unable to control the vehicle can result in a cash.

But how often are ordinary drivers in an extreme cornering situation?

Have you ever lived in the country?

[Jocabia]

I suspect that is just a case of logistics. That would be much harder to address and much harder to enforce. What is a sufficient restraint for a gallon of milk? Does it matter if the container is plastic or glass? Etc. People are known to occupy the vehicle and are relatively easy to restrain in reasonable ways.

Well, to take an example of a typical law regarding securing an item in a trailer or pickup truck bed, typically they state something to the effect of that it must be secured in such as a way to prevent the load shifting or coming loose.

If it shifts or falls off the vehicle, it wasn't properly secured.

A similar cabin law would make sense, if we were truly concerned about flying objects within a vehicle.

Actually, I always belt my beer cases, 'cause, you know...priorities...and safety...

In the atypical event in which I buy a case of beer, so do I.

I doubt unsecured items in the vehicle are of sufficient weight and density to be an issue in many cases. Feel free to show that it's a frequent issue, though. Unsecured items in the back of a truck or in a flatbed are dangerous even without an accident and are often much larger than an unsecured banana or milk carton.

[Bythibus]

Well, to take an example of a typical law regarding securing an item in a trailer or pickup truck bed, typically they state something to the effect of that it must be secured in such as a way to prevent the load shifting or coming loose.

If it shifts or falls off the vehicle, it wasn't properly secured.

A similar cabin law would make sense, if we were truly concerned about flying objects within a vehicle.



In the atypical event in which I buy a case of beer, so do I.

I doubt unsecured items in the vehicle are of sufficient weight and density to be an issue in many cases. Feel free to show that it's a frequent issue, though. Unsecured items in the back of a truck or in a flatbed are dangerous even without an accident and are often much larger than an unsecured banana or milk carton.

Typically the only times I have issues with weight ratio in my truck is when I'm hauling an uneven load like a washing machine/dryer stack or ten sheets of plywood

[Jocabia]

But how often are ordinary drivers in an extreme cornering situation?

Have you ever lived in the country?

Yeah, that was my thought, actually. I maintain that country roads ended up paved because it was impossible to keep the gravel on the road.

[Bythibus]

Have you ever lived in the country?

Yeah, that was my thought, actually. I maintain that country roads ended up paved because it was impossible to keep the gravel on the road.

Undoubtedly. On the few "gravel" roads that still exist in my area that are frequently used, they're pretty much reduced to dirt ruts with gravel on the side of the road. Still, even with paved roads, the occasional surprise sharp turn has thrown me to the side of my truck.

I'm not saying I was driving the speed limit or anything, but shit happens.

[Farnhamia]

Yeah, that was my thought, actually. I maintain that country roads ended up paved because it was impossible to keep the gravel on the road.

Undoubtedly. On the few "gravel" roads that still exist in my area that are frequently used, they're pretty much reduced to dirt ruts with gravel on the side of the road. Still, even with paved roads, the occasional surprise sharp turn has thrown me to the side of my truck.

I'm not saying I was driving the speed limit or anything, but shit happens.

Speed limits are lower limits, not upper limits, everyone knows that. Try driving the limit on a highway and see what kind of looks you get.

[Imperializt Russia]

I know they protect other people on the road by keeping the driver within range of the controls.

That has been my argument.

Some people have been arguing they keep you from flying out of the vehicle as a projectile and striking others.

I can find no such incident of that occurring. Ever.

As a secondary argument, they state to protect a person from themselves. That's a poor argument as well.

That's because LG's driving record is sealed.

I looked up seatbelt legislation in WIki and while there was no explanation of the need for it beyond saving lives, one of the criticisms was interesting. I'm not sure I buy it but some people have argued that requiring seatbelts makes drivers more likely to drive recklessly because they know they have a certain amount of protection against injury in the event of an accident.

We have cars with FLIR in low-light conditions, radar-guided cruise control, full airbags, crumple zones, seatbelts, reinforced cabins and alertness monitoring.

The phrase "risk compensation" springs suddenly to mind.

Her Majesty's Government disagrees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHY69AFstE

Are you claiming that everyone who does not wear a seat belt will be involved in an accident?

Everyone not wearing a seatbelt who is involved in an accident will be needlessly injured more than they otherwise might be, and may inflict injuries on others in the vehicle.

Indeed the entire point of that ad is that, unlike what you claimed, not wearing seatbelts does have a victim. Whoever you bloody hit, when you're catapulted out of your seat at cruising speed.

Actually, it can. In an extreme cornering situation or a slide, the force acting on the driver can be sufficient to move the driver away from the controls.

Being unable to control the vehicle can result in a cash.

But how often are ordinary drivers in an extreme cornering situation?

There are countries that aren't America.
Even American roads have turns, sometimes.

[Mormak]

Undoubtedly. On the few "gravel" roads that still exist in my area that are frequently used, they're pretty much reduced to dirt ruts with gravel on the side of the road. Still, even with paved roads, the occasional surprise sharp turn has thrown me to the side of my truck.

I'm not saying I was driving the speed limit or anything, but shit happens.

Speed limits are lower limits, not upper limits, everyone knows that. Try driving the limit on a highway and see what kind of looks you get.

Actually route 41 just around me in fact, is so horribly maintained and falling apart it basically requires the legal limit just so you don't smash into people who are hitting pot holes or gaps in the roadway every hundred yards.

[Farnhamia]

Speed limits are lower limits, not upper limits, everyone knows that. Try driving the limit on a highway and see what kind of looks you get.

Actually route 41 just around me in fact, is so horribly maintained and falling apart it basically requires the legal limit just so you don't smash into people who are hitting pot holes or gaps in the roadway every hundred yards.

The exception that proves the rule. Maybe that's how speed limits can be enforced, by doing away with road maintenance. There's that encouragement of risk-taking again, safe roads encourage people to drive faster. Weird.

[Ostroeuropa]

Actually route 41 just around me in fact, is so horribly maintained and falling apart it basically requires the legal limit just so you don't smash into people who are hitting pot holes or gaps in the roadway every hundred yards.

The exception that proves the rule. Maybe that's how speed limits can be enforced, by doing away with road maintenance. There's that encouragement of risk-taking again, safe roads encourage people to drive faster. Weird.

There was a dutch village a while back that did away with all road signs that resulted in safer driving.
I'm betting that this effect was reliant on road signs being present everywhere else though.


Turns out its more than just the dutch:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spi ... 48747.html

[Mormak]

Actually route 41 just around me in fact, is so horribly maintained and falling apart it basically requires the legal limit just so you don't smash into people who are hitting pot holes or gaps in the roadway every hundred yards.

The exception that proves the rule. Maybe that's how speed limits can be enforced, by doing away with road maintenance. There's that encouragement of risk-taking again, safe roads encourage people to drive faster. Weird.

i would agree if the roads weren't so junky they occasionally caused a wreck or two.

You don't want to blow a tire on a crowded highway for obvious reasons.

[Imperializt Russia]

The exception that proves the rule. Maybe that's how speed limits can be enforced, by doing away with road maintenance. There's that encouragement of risk-taking again, safe roads encourage people to drive faster. Weird.

There was a dutch village a while back that did away with all road signs that resulted in safer driving.
I'm betting that this effect was reliant on road signs being present everywhere else though.


Turns out its more than just the dutch:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spi ... 48747.html

The theory is that with road signs everywhere, drivers spend too much time looking for the road sign they want to see than actually paying attention to the road and driving.
The theory further goes, do away with road signs and make drivers actually think for themselves, and people will pay attention to the road, rather than the roadside.

[Ostroeuropa]

There was a dutch village a while back that did away with all road signs that resulted in safer driving.
I'm betting that this effect was reliant on road signs being present everywhere else though.


Turns out its more than just the dutch:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spi ... 48747.html

The theory is that with road signs everywhere, drivers spend too much time looking for the road sign they want to see than actually paying attention to the road and driving.
The theory further goes, do away with road signs and make drivers actually think for themselves, and people will pay attention to the road, rather than the roadside.

It's an interesting theory to be sure. But it would require an overhaul of drivers license testing.

[Jocabia]

Speed limits are lower limits, not upper limits, everyone knows that. Try driving the limit on a highway and see what kind of looks you get.

Actually route 41 just around me in fact, is so horribly maintained and falling apart it basically requires the legal limit just so you don't smash into people who are hitting pot holes or gaps in the roadway every hundred yards.

Man, 41 is everywhere. I used to live near it in IL. Now I live just off of it in Florida.

[Farnhamia]

Actually route 41 just around me in fact, is so horribly maintained and falling apart it basically requires the legal limit just so you don't smash into people who are hitting pot holes or gaps in the roadway every hundred yards.

Man, 41 is everywhere. I used to live near it in IL. Now I live just off of it in Florida.

It runs from Miami to the Canadian border, I believe. And right through the first verse of an Allman Brothers hit.

[Kaztropol]

I am not aware of people being stopped solely for not wearing a seat belt.

It would depend on the jurisdiction. Some places, traffic police can and will stop a vehicle solely for an occupant (not necessarily the driver) not wearing a seat belt.

Here, usually there are occasional campaigns of high profile traffic policing of seat belt use, which usually means more than just the traffic police presence, during a campaign, any and all police cars may flag someone down for seatbelt use.

[Jocabia]

Man, 41 is everywhere. I used to live near it in IL. Now I live just off of it in Florida.

It runs from Miami to the Canadian border, I believe. And right through the first verse of an Allman Brothers hit.

It doesn't run through me dreams on a regular basis. Only you hold that honor.

[Galloism]

It runs from Miami to the Canadian border, I believe. And right through the first verse of an Allman Brothers hit.

It doesn't run through me dreams on a regular basis. Only you hold that honor.

They tell me a little milk before bed helps relieve nightmares.

[Galloism]

Well, to take an example of a typical law regarding securing an item in a trailer or pickup truck bed, typically they state something to the effect of that it must be secured in such as a way to prevent the load shifting or coming loose.

If it shifts or falls off the vehicle, it wasn't properly secured.

A similar cabin law would make sense, if we were truly concerned about flying objects within a vehicle.



In the atypical event in which I buy a case of beer, so do I.

I doubt unsecured items in the vehicle are of sufficient weight and density to be an issue in many cases. Feel free to show that it's a frequent issue, though. Unsecured items in the back of a truck or in a flatbed are dangerous even without an accident and are often much larger than an unsecured banana or milk carton.

Dunno. I see people carrying heavy things in cars and SUVs frequently, but then again, I live in the south. YMMV.

Not sure how I'd source average load weight when carrying items in a vehicle cabin.

[Kaztropol]

Also, about rights.

As the driver of a motor vehicle, you have a duty towards all other road users.

If you have a duty to uphold, do you necessarily have all the same rights as someone who does not have a duty to uphold ?

[Jocabia]

I doubt unsecured items in the vehicle are of sufficient weight and density to be an issue in many cases. Feel free to show that it's a frequent issue, though. Unsecured items in the back of a truck or in a flatbed are dangerous even without an accident and are often much larger than an unsecured banana or milk carton.

Dunno. I see people carrying heavy things in cars and SUVs frequently, but then again, I live in the south. YMMV.

Not sure how I'd source average load weight when carrying items in a vehicle cabin.

I suspect the problem with sourcing is also the problem with creating a reasonable law.

[Imperializt Russia]

Research in the UK apparently showed that unsecured items in the boot of a car could be lethal to back-seat passengers, especially children. Sufficiently hefty items like a shovel or toolbox could be lethal to front-seat passengers, and potentially go through the windshield.

Putting a flimsy net up in the back of your boot and ramming stuff against the rear bulkhead of the boot itself will significantly reduce their effectiveness as missiles.

[Tyriece]

Where the hell in the constitution is there anything about seat belts? Its one thing to have a bad argument, but its another thing to try and get our forefathers to side with it.

[Twilight Imperium]

We can do a number of things to reduce fatalities. It does not mean we should do them.