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Is Capitalism still the answer?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Ardoki
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Founded: Sep 14, 2013
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:39 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
It keeps free markets and all that.
Theres a method of doing it that I prefer, which is basically that anyone who works for a corporation gets 1 share of stock to vote with. No non-workers may vote with stock.
Wages would be abolished, instead, every worker gets a share of the corporate profits determined by the collective.
(The current progenitor is the Mondragon corporation, which uses:

Unskilled labour - 1 share
Skilled Labour - 3 shares
Management - 5 shares
Upper Management 7 shares)

System.
thus, upper management will only EVER receive 7 times the pay of the lowest paid work, and that pay is ENTIRELY dependent on how well the corporation functions.
If profits go up, everyones wages go up. If profit goes down, everyones wages go down.

This model makes firing people (for reasons other than incompetence or bad behaviour) obsolete. We no longer have to fire people because times are tough. People will willingly leave when their pay goes down. (Too many workers sharing not enough profit. Those willing to leave will do so. If noone wants to leave, then there is no problem.)

Imagine it as basically a form of socialist-corporation.
It means you can entirely scrap things like workplace-health acts, since the workers of the company are going to vote for healthier working conditions anyway.
And if they dont vote for them, who are we to say otherwise? They know the risks best.
The importance of the vote is that it allows workers to fire incompetent managers by voting them out, which can be vital. Ofcourse, it is NEVER in their interest to fire an actually competent manager. Doing so would hurt their incomes.
It also means that every worker has a vested interest in the corporation doing well. If it does well, they get more cash.
It minimizes laziness. Every worker knows they get a share of the profit, so why laze?



What about that then ^.
That's an alternative.
I personally believe that the workers should run the business, however the business and it's profits should be shared amongst all of society.
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Ardoki
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:41 pm

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Everyone’s needs will be satisfied first (this is actually easily achievable today), after the needs have been achieved wants will then be achieved.

A communist economy would not be able to satisfy everyone's needs.
Even capitalism cannot do it - that's why trade exists.
Actually we can, for example the worlds hundred richest people earned enough in 2012 to end world hunger 4 times over.
http://rt.com/news/oxfam-report-global-inequality-357/
http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four-times
Greater Ardokian Empire | It is Ardoki's destiny to rule the whole world!
Unitary Parliamentary Constitutional Republic

Head of State: Grand Emperor Alistair Killian Moriarty
Head of Government: Grand Imperial Chancellor Kennedy Rowan Coleman
Legislature: Imperial Senate
Ruling Party: Imperial Progressive Party
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North Yakistan
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Founded: Jun 30, 2013
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Postby North Yakistan » Sat May 03, 2014 11:42 pm

Ardoki wrote:
Lithuanian Empire wrote:A communist economy would not be able to satisfy everyone's needs.
Even capitalism cannot do it - that's why trade exists.
Actually we can, for example the worlds hundred richest people earned enough in 2012 to end world hunger 4 times over.
http://rt.com/news/oxfam-report-global-inequality-357/
http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four-times


But what about shipping costs? What about providing a varied and health diet?
Politics
I am a Voluntarist Anarchist. Break your chains and smash the state!

Pro:Free Markets, Free people, Free love, property rights, privacy rights, weapons rights, Survivalism, Homesteading, Seasteding, Micronations, self ownership, non-Agression principal, and pAnarchism.

Against: The State, Marxism, Communism, State Capitalism, Taxation, Victimless crimes, the initiation of force, and urbanization.

Economic Left/Right: 9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
“What anarcho-communists see as existing because of the state, ancaps see as existing despite the state and vice versa.”

pAnarchism

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Lithuanian Empire
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Founded: May 09, 2012
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Postby Lithuanian Empire » Sat May 03, 2014 11:42 pm

Ardoki wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It keeps free markets and all that.
Theres a method of doing it that I prefer, which is basically that anyone who works for a corporation gets 1 share of stock to vote with. No non-workers may vote with stock.
Wages would be abolished, instead, every worker gets a share of the corporate profits determined by the collective.
(The current progenitor is the Mondragon corporation, which uses:

Unskilled labour - 1 share
Skilled Labour - 3 shares
Management - 5 shares
Upper Management 7 shares)

System.
thus, upper management will only EVER receive 7 times the pay of the lowest paid work, and that pay is ENTIRELY dependent on how well the corporation functions.
If profits go up, everyones wages go up. If profit goes down, everyones wages go down.

This model makes firing people (for reasons other than incompetence or bad behaviour) obsolete. We no longer have to fire people because times are tough. People will willingly leave when their pay goes down. (Too many workers sharing not enough profit. Those willing to leave will do so. If noone wants to leave, then there is no problem.)

Imagine it as basically a form of socialist-corporation.
It means you can entirely scrap things like workplace-health acts, since the workers of the company are going to vote for healthier working conditions anyway.
And if they dont vote for them, who are we to say otherwise? They know the risks best.
The importance of the vote is that it allows workers to fire incompetent managers by voting them out, which can be vital. Ofcourse, it is NEVER in their interest to fire an actually competent manager. Doing so would hurt their incomes.
It also means that every worker has a vested interest in the corporation doing well. If it does well, they get more cash.
It minimizes laziness. Every worker knows they get a share of the profit, so why laze?



What about that then ^.
That's an alternative.
I personally believe that the workers should run the business, however the business and it's profits should be shared amongst all of society.

You should really study the economy and how it works.
Because economy doesn't work like that.
Hannibal Lecter's Inspiration of the AXIS PACT!
I am the real Lith. Isle of Lithonia is a fake!

-stripped-
Political Compass:
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Lithuanian Empire wrote:I never watch Eurovision - it's a waste of possible time on NS.
Yes, I prefer NS rather than Eurovision.

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
United Great Britian wrote:-really lame app-

If I was the OP, I would reject this immediately.
However, Allen doesn't like my harsh/just technique, so there's hope.

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Ardoki
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:43 pm

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
Ardoki wrote:I personally believe that the workers should run the business, however the business and it's profits should be shared amongst all of society.

You should really study the economy and how it works.
Because economy doesn't work like that.
Not now, but it is definitely possible.
Please explain how it couldn’t work.
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North Yakistan
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Postby North Yakistan » Sat May 03, 2014 11:44 pm

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
Ardoki wrote:I personally believe that the workers should run the business, however the business and it's profits should be shared amongst all of society.

You should really study the economy and how it works.
Because economy doesn't work like that.


It dosnt matter, his position is based on emotion not logic.

But I would recommend David Freidmans "The Machinery of Freedom"
Politics
I am a Voluntarist Anarchist. Break your chains and smash the state!

Pro:Free Markets, Free people, Free love, property rights, privacy rights, weapons rights, Survivalism, Homesteading, Seasteding, Micronations, self ownership, non-Agression principal, and pAnarchism.

Against: The State, Marxism, Communism, State Capitalism, Taxation, Victimless crimes, the initiation of force, and urbanization.

Economic Left/Right: 9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
“What anarcho-communists see as existing because of the state, ancaps see as existing despite the state and vice versa.”

pAnarchism

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Ardoki
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:44 pm

North Yakistan wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Actually we can, for example the worlds hundred richest people earned enough in 2012 to end world hunger 4 times over.
http://rt.com/news/oxfam-report-global-inequality-357/
http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four-times


But what about shipping costs? What about providing a varied and health diet?
Shipping costs are a trivial matter here. And a varied diet is easily possible with that amount.
Greater Ardokian Empire | It is Ardoki's destiny to rule the whole world!
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Head of State: Grand Emperor Alistair Killian Moriarty
Head of Government: Grand Imperial Chancellor Kennedy Rowan Coleman
Legislature: Imperial Senate
Ruling Party: Imperial Progressive Party
Technology Level: MT (Primary) | PMT, FanT (Secondary)
Politics: Social Democrat
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Lithuanian Empire
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Founded: May 09, 2012
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Postby Lithuanian Empire » Sat May 03, 2014 11:44 pm

Ardoki wrote:
Lithuanian Empire wrote:A communist economy would not be able to satisfy everyone's needs.
Even capitalism cannot do it - that's why trade exists.
Actually we can, for example the worlds hundred richest people earned enough in 2012 to end world hunger 4 times over.
http://rt.com/news/oxfam-report-global-inequality-357/
http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four-times

That's possible because we live in a capitalist society, where corporations race for efficiency to satisfy the growing population.
In a communist society, such thing won't exist.
Last edited by Lithuanian Empire on Sat May 03, 2014 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hannibal Lecter's Inspiration of the AXIS PACT!
I am the real Lith. Isle of Lithonia is a fake!

-stripped-
Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 0.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.97
Lithuanian Empire wrote:I never watch Eurovision - it's a waste of possible time on NS.
Yes, I prefer NS rather than Eurovision.

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
United Great Britian wrote:-really lame app-

If I was the OP, I would reject this immediately.
However, Allen doesn't like my harsh/just technique, so there's hope.

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Grykten
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Postby Grykten » Sat May 03, 2014 11:45 pm

Ardoki wrote:
Lithuanian Empire wrote:A communist economy would not be able to satisfy everyone's needs.
Even capitalism cannot do it - that's why trade exists.
Actually we can, for example the worlds hundred richest people earned enough in 2012 to end world hunger 4 times over.
http://rt.com/news/oxfam-report-global-inequality-357/
http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four-times


That is sad but even still there is simply not enough food to buy with that money. It would be great to try to start feeding world hunger though. Which we are making gains on already.

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North Yakistan
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Postby North Yakistan » Sat May 03, 2014 11:45 pm

Ardoki wrote:
Lithuanian Empire wrote:You should really study the economy and how it works.
Because economy doesn't work like that.
Not now, but it is definitely possible.
Please explain how it couldn’t work.


We have been and you keep brushing them off with assumptions not based in fact or with no prescident to support them.

Just saying "Coruption would not be a problem" does not mean it would not be a problem.
Politics
I am a Voluntarist Anarchist. Break your chains and smash the state!

Pro:Free Markets, Free people, Free love, property rights, privacy rights, weapons rights, Survivalism, Homesteading, Seasteding, Micronations, self ownership, non-Agression principal, and pAnarchism.

Against: The State, Marxism, Communism, State Capitalism, Taxation, Victimless crimes, the initiation of force, and urbanization.

Economic Left/Right: 9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
“What anarcho-communists see as existing because of the state, ancaps see as existing despite the state and vice versa.”

pAnarchism

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Ardoki
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Founded: Sep 14, 2013
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:45 pm

North Yakistan wrote:
Lithuanian Empire wrote:You should really study the economy and how it works.
Because economy doesn't work like that.


It dosnt matter, his position is based on emotion not logic.

But I would recommend David Freidmans "The Machinery of Freedom"
How is it based on emotion and not logic?
To me it seems only logical. I am not a very emotional person, for example I don't feel love, or empathy or guilt.
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Ardoki
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:46 pm

North Yakistan wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Not now, but it is definitely possible.
Please explain how it couldn’t work.


We have been and you keep brushing them off with assumptions not based in fact or with no prescident to support them.

Just saying "Coruption would not be a problem" does not mean it would not be a problem.
So corruption does not exist under capitalism?

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/icac-hears-chris-hartcher-corruption-claims-as-liberal-mp-marie-ficarra-steps-aside-20140428-zr0np.html
Greater Ardokian Empire | It is Ardoki's destiny to rule the whole world!
Unitary Parliamentary Constitutional Republic

Head of State: Grand Emperor Alistair Killian Moriarty
Head of Government: Grand Imperial Chancellor Kennedy Rowan Coleman
Legislature: Imperial Senate
Ruling Party: Imperial Progressive Party
Technology Level: MT (Primary) | PMT, FanT (Secondary)
Politics: Social Democrat
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sat May 03, 2014 11:46 pm

Lithuanian Empire wrote:The reasons for USSR's failure were built in the roots. Also, how can USSR be state capitalist if there were no capitalists?


Just going to address this:

Because the state was capitalist. The state was the one that owned the means of production. Not the workers. That more closely fits capitalism than socialism.
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North Yakistan
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Postby North Yakistan » Sat May 03, 2014 11:47 pm

Ardoki wrote:
North Yakistan wrote:
But what about shipping costs? What about providing a varied and health diet?
Shipping costs are a trivial matter here. And a varied diet is easily possible with that amount.


There's also the matter of their not actualy being enough food for them to buy with all that cash.


Once again, scarcity.
Politics
I am a Voluntarist Anarchist. Break your chains and smash the state!

Pro:Free Markets, Free people, Free love, property rights, privacy rights, weapons rights, Survivalism, Homesteading, Seasteding, Micronations, self ownership, non-Agression principal, and pAnarchism.

Against: The State, Marxism, Communism, State Capitalism, Taxation, Victimless crimes, the initiation of force, and urbanization.

Economic Left/Right: 9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
“What anarcho-communists see as existing because of the state, ancaps see as existing despite the state and vice versa.”

pAnarchism

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Lithuanian Empire
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Founded: May 09, 2012
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Postby Lithuanian Empire » Sat May 03, 2014 11:48 pm

Ardoki wrote:
North Yakistan wrote:
It dosnt matter, his position is based on emotion not logic.

But I would recommend David Freidmans "The Machinery of Freedom"
How is it based on emotion and not logic?
To me it seems only logical. I am not a very emotional person, for example I don't feel love, or empathy or guilt.

"Emotion" as in you believe in a society which you seem to like more, not which is more logical.
Last edited by Lithuanian Empire on Sat May 03, 2014 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hannibal Lecter's Inspiration of the AXIS PACT!
I am the real Lith. Isle of Lithonia is a fake!

-stripped-
Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 0.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.97
Lithuanian Empire wrote:I never watch Eurovision - it's a waste of possible time on NS.
Yes, I prefer NS rather than Eurovision.

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
United Great Britian wrote:-really lame app-

If I was the OP, I would reject this immediately.
However, Allen doesn't like my harsh/just technique, so there's hope.

User avatar
Ardoki
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Posts: 14496
Founded: Sep 14, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:48 pm

North Yakistan wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Shipping costs are a trivial matter here. And a varied diet is easily possible with that amount.


There's also the matter of their not actualy being enough food for them to buy with all that cash.


Once again, scarcity.
Food would not need to be bought. It would be produced for use and not profit.

What the articles said was their is easily enough money to produce that amount of food.
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Head of State: Grand Emperor Alistair Killian Moriarty
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North Yakistan
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Postby North Yakistan » Sat May 03, 2014 11:48 pm

Ardoki wrote:
North Yakistan wrote:
We have been and you keep brushing them off with assumptions not based in fact or with no prescident to support them.

Just saying "Coruption would not be a problem" does not mean it would not be a problem.
So corruption does not exist under capitalism?

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/icac-hears-chris-hartcher-corruption-claims-as-liberal-mp-marie-ficarra-steps-aside-20140428-zr0np.html


I am not advocating the system in which this corruption took place.

That is state capitolism.

I am an Anarcho-Capitolist.
Politics
I am a Voluntarist Anarchist. Break your chains and smash the state!

Pro:Free Markets, Free people, Free love, property rights, privacy rights, weapons rights, Survivalism, Homesteading, Seasteding, Micronations, self ownership, non-Agression principal, and pAnarchism.

Against: The State, Marxism, Communism, State Capitalism, Taxation, Victimless crimes, the initiation of force, and urbanization.

Economic Left/Right: 9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
“What anarcho-communists see as existing because of the state, ancaps see as existing despite the state and vice versa.”

pAnarchism

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Ardoki
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Founded: Sep 14, 2013
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:49 pm

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
Ardoki wrote:How is it based on emotion and not logic?
To me it seems only logical. I am not a very emotional person, for example I don't feel love, or empathy or guilt.

"Emotion" as in you believe in a society which you seem to like more.
To me it is the most logical choice. You obviously haven't read any communist literature, I recommend you too.
Greater Ardokian Empire | It is Ardoki's destiny to rule the whole world!
Unitary Parliamentary Constitutional Republic

Head of State: Grand Emperor Alistair Killian Moriarty
Head of Government: Grand Imperial Chancellor Kennedy Rowan Coleman
Legislature: Imperial Senate
Ruling Party: Imperial Progressive Party
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Politics: Social Democrat
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sat May 03, 2014 11:49 pm

North Yakistan wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Shipping costs are a trivial matter here. And a varied diet is easily possible with that amount.


There's also the matter of their not actualy being enough food for them to buy with all that cash.


Once again, scarcity.


Scarcity will be overcome in the future. Or, at least, it'll be rendered increasingly irrelevant, such that society will become effectively post-scarcity, even if its technically still subject to scarcity.
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Reject tradition, embrace modernity.
People who call themselves based NEVER are.
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Ardoki
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:50 pm

North Yakistan wrote:


I am not advocating the system in which this corruption took place.

That is state capitolism.

I am an Anarcho-Capitolist.
Australia is not state-capitalist, it is market-capitalist. In an "anarcho"-capitalist society the problem would be 100s of times worse.
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Head of State: Grand Emperor Alistair Killian Moriarty
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Legislature: Imperial Senate
Ruling Party: Imperial Progressive Party
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North Yakistan
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Postby North Yakistan » Sat May 03, 2014 11:50 pm

Ardoki wrote:
North Yakistan wrote:
There's also the matter of their not actualy being enough food for them to buy with all that cash.


Once again, scarcity.
Food would not need to be bought. It would be produced for use and not profit.

What the articles said was their is easily enough money to produce that amount of food.


No you don't understand! There is only so much arable land, only so many tractors, only so much pesticide. We litteraly are incapeable of producing enough food to feed the world in more than a starvation diet
Politics
I am a Voluntarist Anarchist. Break your chains and smash the state!

Pro:Free Markets, Free people, Free love, property rights, privacy rights, weapons rights, Survivalism, Homesteading, Seasteding, Micronations, self ownership, non-Agression principal, and pAnarchism.

Against: The State, Marxism, Communism, State Capitalism, Taxation, Victimless crimes, the initiation of force, and urbanization.

Economic Left/Right: 9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
“What anarcho-communists see as existing because of the state, ancaps see as existing despite the state and vice versa.”

pAnarchism

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Lithuanian Empire
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Founded: May 09, 2012
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Postby Lithuanian Empire » Sat May 03, 2014 11:50 pm

Ardoki wrote:
Lithuanian Empire wrote:"Emotion" as in you believe in a society which you seem to like more.
To me it is the most logical choice. You obviously haven't read any communist literature, I recommend you too.

I have, actually, and communism is for uneducated worker masses who have no knowledge how our economy works and only do the manual labor.
Hannibal Lecter's Inspiration of the AXIS PACT!
I am the real Lith. Isle of Lithonia is a fake!

-stripped-
Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 0.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.97
Lithuanian Empire wrote:I never watch Eurovision - it's a waste of possible time on NS.
Yes, I prefer NS rather than Eurovision.

Lithuanian Empire wrote:
United Great Britian wrote:-really lame app-

If I was the OP, I would reject this immediately.
However, Allen doesn't like my harsh/just technique, so there's hope.

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Ardoki
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Founded: Sep 14, 2013
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Postby Ardoki » Sat May 03, 2014 11:52 pm

North Yakistan wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Their needs will try to be met. It is not as if this kind of stuff does not happen under capitalism, plus this scenario is very unlikely.


It's not unlikely at all, I grew up in a farming region and still live in one. Crops can fail any given year because of disease, weather, or a my raid of other factors.

And capitolism has a built in mechanism for this, supply and demand.
And socialism has production-for-use which is more efficient (not nearly as much waste).
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Unitary Parliamentary Constitutional Republic

Head of State: Grand Emperor Alistair Killian Moriarty
Head of Government: Grand Imperial Chancellor Kennedy Rowan Coleman
Legislature: Imperial Senate
Ruling Party: Imperial Progressive Party
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Politics: Social Democrat
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Grenartia
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Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sat May 03, 2014 11:52 pm

North Yakistan wrote:


I am not advocating the system in which this corruption took place.

That is state capitolism.

I am an Anarcho-Capitolist.


An anarcho capitalist society would be just as, if not, even more corrupt, without a government to step in and prevent corruption.
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
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North Yakistan
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Posts: 952
Founded: Jun 30, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby North Yakistan » Sat May 03, 2014 11:52 pm

Ardoki wrote:
North Yakistan wrote:
I am not advocating the system in which this corruption took place.

That is state capitolism.

I am an Anarcho-Capitolist.
Australia is not state-capitalist, it is market-capitalist. In an "anarcho"-capitalist society the problem would be 100s of times worse.


False Australia IS state capitolist, the state intervenes in the market.

False without the state to prop up monopolies or taxes workers could buy product at true market value without added tax load.
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I am a Voluntarist Anarchist. Break your chains and smash the state!

Pro:Free Markets, Free people, Free love, property rights, privacy rights, weapons rights, Survivalism, Homesteading, Seasteding, Micronations, self ownership, non-Agression principal, and pAnarchism.

Against: The State, Marxism, Communism, State Capitalism, Taxation, Victimless crimes, the initiation of force, and urbanization.

Economic Left/Right: 9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
“What anarcho-communists see as existing because of the state, ancaps see as existing despite the state and vice versa.”

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