Black People Are Racist Too!

[Buddha Punk Robot Monks]

How is that begging the questions?

You basically included the answer to your premise in the premise. That's how.

I did no such thing. My conclusion is that racism is prejudice plus power. I start by saying that European colonization which created racism did it for purposes of power, and the go on to say that we have inherited this system, though it has been evolved, worked over, and developed as different systems of power adopted it. The premise is in support of he conclusion, not equivalent to it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Unfortunately, yes. I mean, I've already explained the socio-economic part, but just look at NY's (former) stop-and-frisk law. It heavily discriminated against law-abiding african americans.

*Sigh* All I'm going to do now is tune this stuff out, pretend it doesn't exist and HOPE that I meet non-racist people in the future. If I do, I'l deal with them. Hopefully my educational work pays off..

If it comforts you I am seeing outside of my race a wonderful woman who doesn't feel bothered about my race nor do I feel bothered about hers. We even make jokes about it in private. So yes, there's non-racist people out there.

[Viritica]

Thank you.

Hm, you're actually quite pleasant.

Now, I know judges should not be prejudiced and I know biased attitudes exist. However, you have to realize a lot of blacks tend to live crowded together in poor neighborhoods, many of which I've already mentioned. Poor neighborhoods tend to lead to more crime. I'm not trying to justify any biased attitudes against blacks, I'd just like you to understand why they exist.

As for the names, I certainly would try and consider all the applicants and hire whoever is the best qualified. I'm simply saying a parent should not try and give their children any possible disadvantages in life, and having silly names can be a bit of a disadvantage.

Don't spread the pleasant thing around. I have a surly reputation to protect.

I get why these attitudes exist. I'm simply saying that continuing these attitudes tends to perpetuate the problem. As I'm not in a realistic position to tell black people what they should be doing in order to address their issues, what I can do is attempt to address it among my fellow white people. As far as the names go, you may have a point, but it's also up to the bosses and managers out there to look past relatively recent cultural naming trends in order to actually hire the most qualified applicants. Here's a reasonably balanced and interesting article on the subject of "invented" names in the black community.

Oh, it'll be our little secret.

And I agree, I understand that it contributes. But I feel it's worth noting a lot of black youths tend to take pride in having a culture like that. In their culture only three things matter: money, power, and women. It's enshrined in their rap songs and encouraged by their youths. If you have those three things you are something of a king, and they make that very clear and will do whatever they can to get that money and power (drug dealing is one). I'm not speaking from ignorance; I do actually have experience in this matter.

Your link is very interesting. I certainly agree that we should look past those names, but anything that deviates from societal norms automatically gets looked at with raised eyebrows. A lot of those names are also automatically associated with criminals and crime ridden neighborhoods. A lot of the time it's just better to conform and succeed rather than try to be unique and end up as a failure. It truly is a shame, and I personally have no problem with these names. I can't say the same for other people, though.

[MERIZoC]

Unfortunately, yes. I mean, I've already explained the socio-economic part, but just look at NY's (former) stop-and-frisk law. It heavily discriminated against law-abiding african americans.

*Sigh* All I'm going to do now is tune this stuff out, pretend it doesn't exist and HOPE that I meet non-racist people in the future. If I do, I'l deal with them. Hopefully my educational work pays off..

Please don't feel to depressed about this. As long as you work hard, you'll be fine.

[The Genoese Cromanatum]

yes. you were misrepresenting peoples positions. that's, uh, kinda part of what a strawman is.

I misinterpreted noone's position, I wrote that post in reply to noone, it was simply a statement.

You people are blindly ignoring what I say.

[Draica]

*Sigh* All I'm going to do now is tune this stuff out, pretend it doesn't exist and HOPE that I meet non-racist people in the future. If I do, I'l deal with them. Hopefully my educational work pays off..

If it comforts you I am dating outside of my race a wonderful woman who doesn't feel bothered about my race nor do I feel bothered about hers. We even make jokes about it in private.

Is that so? I'm glad you're happy in that aera of life.

[Southern Malaysia]

yes. you were misrepresenting peoples positions. that's, uh, kinda part of what a strawman is.

Ah, but see, he was being sarcastic in order to make a point...not that he's bothered to further explain what said point was.

I felt that it was too easily taken ion a wrong way, Sir. Could said individual explain his intent and whay he made the post, Sir ? I am mightily confused. Please forgive me for being such a colossal blockhead, Sir. I shall pay more attention so that I can give a more intelligent response, Sir. Thank you, Sir. Goodbye.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If it comforts you I am dating outside of my race a wonderful woman who doesn't feel bothered about my race nor do I feel bothered about hers. We even make jokes about it in private.

Is that so? I'm glad you're happy in that aera of life.

Yep. But the point is, there is non-racist people out there. You just have to learn how to associate with said people.

[Buddha Punk Robot Monks]

And yes humans have been seeing each other as nonhuman for centuries, but these are primarily different -isms than racism.

Only in the way that Scotsman have being sugaring their porridge for centuries but they weren't True Scotsmen because True Scotsmen eat porridge without sugar.

Slavery and prejudicial ethnicity were the primary forms of disadvantage before racism. Neither one was based on race, but social status or membership in a particular ethnic group. No Scotsman here but what you imagine.

[Vettrera]

It isn't a buzzword. It's an actual informal fallacy that you were engaging in in order to prove a point that still remains unclear.

Or perhaps it was a joke, as I have said? You /do/ know what sarcasm is, don't you?

Sarcastically posting something that is already sarcastic is stupid. You can't expect people to follow you down that rabbit hole. This is the internet. Convey your points better or risk being misunderstood.

[Aurora Novus]

Pride is the retribution and the celebration, if you will, of their accomplishments. It is socially ambiguous, and does leave many unanswerable questions. So is trying to remove value and pride for being different. You see, education. Edu-fucking-cation. Is the saviour of us all. To understand the opposite side is fundamentally better than speculating and leaving it ambiguous and possibly leaving it to cause even more problems down the line.

To combat all forms of racism, one does it first by protest. Then by pride. Then by dialogue. Understanding is the end of the means, and the means thus far work... It's just that they are quite ambiguous. Once all have understood one another, the value of race should be no more. This takes time. Time a paitience, of which some on both sides lack.

What a load of horseshit. First of all, it's one thing to take pride in one's accomplishments. Society changed itself for what we hold to be the better. Great, sure, let's celebrate that. But you don't do that by saying "Gee, isn't X group so great? Man, I sure do love X group!" That's not taking pride in your accomlishments, that's taking pride in yourself. And knock it off with this "education is the savior" nonsense, don't be a demagogue. You make it sound as if I'm talking about bleaching the history books of the history of racial tension, and I'm not, so please, drop the bullshit.

You don't combat racism with pride, that's where you are wrong. At least, not pride in your own race. That's nonsensical, and doesn't convince anyone. Again, has anyone here ever been convined to not be a racist because of Black Pride, or Black History Month, or any of these "pride" ideas you're discussing? I do not know of a sinlge soul that has ever been made a non-racist for that reason. Every single non-racist I'm aware of is such not because they value people for being the race they are, but because they don't value race. At all. And you're right, it does take time. For a society to change like that, it takes generations. But ironically, you make it take longer than it should by trying to quicken the process, by forcefeeding people this bullshit notion of "positive racial pride".


People stop valuing race when they stop living in a world that values race. I don't want to understand someone as a "black man" or a "white man", I want to understand them as a man, fullstop. Understanding does not lead to a lack of vaue in race, understanding follows from a lack of value of race.

[Southern Malaysia]

Or perhaps it was a joke, as I have said? You /do/ know what sarcasm is, don't you?

Sarcastically posting something that is already sarcastic is stupid. You can't expect people to expect to follow you down that rabbit hole. This is the internet. Convey your points better or risk being misunderstood.

Yes, Sir or Ma'am. Thank you for correcting persons like I. Thank you, Sir or Ma'am. Goodbye.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Don't spread the pleasant thing around. I have a surly reputation to protect.

I get why these attitudes exist. I'm simply saying that continuing these attitudes tends to perpetuate the problem. As I'm not in a realistic position to tell black people what they should be doing in order to address their issues, what I can do is attempt to address it among my fellow white people. As far as the names go, you may have a point, but it's also up to the bosses and managers out there to look past relatively recent cultural naming trends in order to actually hire the most qualified applicants. Here's a reasonably balanced and interesting article on the subject of "invented" names in the black community.

Oh, it'll be our little secret.

And I agree, I understand that it contributes. But I feel it's worth noting a lot of black youths tend to take pride in having a culture like that. In their culture only three things matter: money, power, and women. It's enshrined in their rap songs and encouraged by their youths. If you have those three things you are something of a king, and they make that very clear and will do whatever they can to get that money and power (drug dealing is one). I'm not speaking from ignorance; I do actually have experience in this matter.

I agree, that's an issue. However, any and all attempts by white people to address this have historically come across as nothing short of patronizing, and tend to miss the point. The best that we can do is to is to change ourselves, to ensure that we're approaching individuals as individuals, and to hope that others do their part as well.

Your link is very interesting. I certainly agree that we should look past those names, but anything that deviates from societal norms automatically gets looked it at with raised eyebrows. A lot of those names are also automatically associated with criminals and crime ridden neighborhoods. A lot of the time it's just better to conform and succeed rather than try to be unique and end up as a failure. It truly is a shame, and I personally have no problem with these names. I can't say the same for other people, though.

I wonder what would happen if they tried the same experiment with names that are unusual in this country, but not associated with black people? Would a Bjorn, a Francois, a Fritz be as likely to have his resume accepted?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

People stop valuing race when they stop living in a world that values race. I don't want to understand someone as a "black man" or a "white man", I want to understand them as a man, fullstop. Understanding does not lead to a lack of vaue in race, understanding follows from a lack of value of race.

Actually it does. Once you understand the other person from another race/religion/etc. you understand they are the same as you; same intellect, feelings, and all; except for their skin color which at that point doesn't matter because you have found you may even share the same ideas and concepts and so the idea of "black man" and "white man" disappears because you are not holding a generalized assumption about a person or group of people.

[Liriena]

I'm sure there's tons of racist people within the many ethnic minorities in the United States and Europe. Belonging to a historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group doesn't make people incapable of treating other historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group like shit.

That being said... yeah... nah... I ain't falling for this tu quoque bullshit.

You know? I find that every single of these "but blacks are racists!" arguments try to justify one's positions of prejudice themselves myself. In other words, the REAL question they are asking is "if they are racists then why can't I be racist?"

It doesn't say much about the person when they actually engage in this tu quoque to actually justify their position of bigotry, which is the most common reason why this question is brought up.

Exactly.

[Saiwania]

*Sigh* All I'm going to do now is tune this stuff out, pretend it doesn't exist and HOPE that I meet non-racist people in the future. If I do, I'll deal with them. Hopefully my educational work pays off..

I'm a racist who wouldn't mind not being negatively racist towards you, so long as you're not race mixing and not trying to force me to become "diverse" or multicultural. I'm okay with Black neighbors but don't want to be one of the only White persons on the block, so to speak.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

*Sigh* All I'm going to do now is tune this stuff out, pretend it doesn't exist and HOPE that I meet non-racist people in the future. If I do, I'll deal with them. Hopefully my educational work pays off..

I'm a racist who wouldn't mind not being negatively racist towards you, so long as you're not race mixing and not trying to force me to become "diverse" or multicultural. I'm okay with Black neighbors but don't want to be one of the only White persons on the block, so to speak.

Well the thing is that you have your own ideas, he has his. If he wants to engage with a woman from another race that's his prerogative.

I'm not saying you should diversify, but rather to live and let live at least. If people want to mix away with other races and they don't mind then it's neither your prerogative nor mine.

[The Rich Port]

Prejudice breeds prejudice.

You reap what you sow.

Be nice and people will be nice in return.

Stupid thread, Blah blah bah. /thread

[Viritica]

Oh, it'll be our little secret.

And I agree, I understand that it contributes. But I feel it's worth noting a lot of black youths tend to take pride in having a culture like that. In their culture only three things matter: money, power, and women. It's enshrined in their rap songs and encouraged by their youths. If you have those three things you are something of a king, and they make that very clear and will do whatever they can to get that money and power (drug dealing is one). I'm not speaking from ignorance; I do actually have experience in this matter.

I agree, that's an issue. However, any and all attempts by white people to address this have historically come across as nothing short of patronizing, and tend to miss the point. The best that we can do is to is to change ourselves, to ensure that we're approaching individuals as individuals, and to hope that others do their part as well.

Your link is very interesting. I certainly agree that we should look past those names, but anything that deviates from societal norms automatically gets looked it at with raised eyebrows. A lot of those names are also automatically associated with criminals and crime ridden neighborhoods. A lot of the time it's just better to conform and succeed rather than try to be unique and end up as a failure. It truly is a shame, and I personally have no problem with these names. I can't say the same for other people, though.

I wonder what would happen if they tried the same experiment with names that are unusual in this country, but not associated with black people? Would a Bjorn, a Francois, a Fritz be as likely to have his resume accepted?

Patronizing isn't the best road to go down. I think a good way to start would be to improve our educational and welfare system. Encourage community organizations and try and build a sense of unity beyond gangs and crime. This might all sound cheesy, but it's the best I can think of. A lot of these problems are perpetuated by gangs (both the Bloods and the Crypts are predominantly African American gangs).

Unfortunately, I think they might be. You know, I think Fritz is actually a name in another language. I'm pretty damn sure I've heard that name before...

[Aurora Novus]

People stop valuing race when they stop living in a world that values race. I don't want to understand someone as a "black man" or a "white man", I want to understand them as a man, fullstop. Understanding does not lead to a lack of vaue in race, understanding follows from a lack of value of race.

Actually it does. Once you understand the other person from another race/religion/etc. you understand they are the same as you; same intellect, feelings, and all; except for their skin color which at that point doesn't matter because you have found you may even share the same ideas and concepts and so the idea of "black man" and "white man" disappears because you are not holding a generalized assumption about a person or group of people.

You have to try and look past the things you don't like about someone before you can even begin to try and understand them. If you'e so entrenched in your bigotry against a particular religious, ethnic, or racial group, you'll never be able to understand them. You have to let go of that prejudice and look past those things before you can try to understand them.

So, no, I'm right. Understanding follows from a lack of value, understanding does not create a lack of value. You don't convince a southern white racist to not lynch a black man by saying "Gee, this guy is black, and blacks are great! You should take pride in your racial difference with him!" No, you try and get him to look past his race, and see him as a man, not so different from him. The value of race is an inhibitor to understanding, it does not bring it about.

[Saiwania]

Well the thing is that you have your own ideas, he has his. If he wants to engage with a woman from another race that's his prerogative.

I'm not saying you should diversify, but rather to live and let live at least. If people want to mix away with other races and they don't mind then it's neither your prerogative nor mine.

Well, I can't do nothing about some people choosing to intermix. Just saying that I'm not going to like it, same if my racial group becomes the minority in my area. In the previous case, I can lightly tolerate it, but in the latter- I have to move.

[Cenetra]

1. The racism equals prejudice plus power theories were actually originally formulated by white anti-racists, not black people trying to justify their own anti-white prejudices.

The "prejudice + power" worldview isn't only applicable to race. It's also very common in feminism and LGBT movements, among other places. I'm not sure who first came up with it, but currently it is frequently used by people with what you would call bigoted, and what I would call racist or sexist, beliefs to justify their views and actions.
In any case, the race of the people who came up with these ideas isn't relevant. It's completely possible to be racist/bigoted against your own race: this is commonly referred to as internalized racism. I would argue that "white guilt," when it extends to claiming that all white people are responsible for atrocities solely by virtue of their race, and regardless of their beliefs or actions, is an example of internalized racism.

Note that there is a major difference between supporting reparations for racial discrimination because you believe that they are necessary to prevent racial discrimination in the future, and supporting them because you believe that one race deserves "punishment."

4. Black people can be racially prejudiced against Native Americans, true, but that would be an instance of racial prejudice, not racism. Unless the blacks have some sort of power over the Native Americans and restrict access to this power from Native Americans, it is not racism.
5. The conflict in Bosnia is obviously more a matter of ethnicity than racism.

I'm going to have to quote Wikipedia here since the original source gives more a 404, but:

Racism and racial discrimination are often used to describe discrimination on an ethnic or cultural basis, independent of whether these differences are described as racial. According to the United Nations convention, there is no distinction between the terms racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination, and superiority based on racial differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous, and that there is no justification for racial discrimination, in theory or in practice, anywhere.

Anyway, while I might support distinguishing between ordinary racism and "institutionalized" or "structural racism" in some cases, I do not support using watered-down terms such as "prejudice" to refer to discrimination based on race. Why? Because "racism" evokes a far stronger response in peoples' minds than "prejudice" or "bigotry," and given the number of people who seem to think that "prejudice" against a "privileged" group is acceptable or even commendable, we need these vile positions and actions to be called out for what they are.

Aside from that, my position is as follows: If a definition of racism fails to include calling for the extermination of a particular racial or ethnic group, that definition is wrong.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I agree, that's an issue. However, any and all attempts by white people to address this have historically come across as nothing short of patronizing, and tend to miss the point. The best that we can do is to is to change ourselves, to ensure that we're approaching individuals as individuals, and to hope that others do their part as well.



I wonder what would happen if they tried the same experiment with names that are unusual in this country, but not associated with black people? Would a Bjorn, a Francois, a Fritz be as likely to have his resume accepted?

Patronizing isn't the best road to go down. I think a good way to start would be to improve our educational and welfare system. Encourage community organizations and try and build a sense of unity beyond gangs and crime. This might all sound cheesy, but it's the best I can think of. A lot of these problems are perpetuated by gangs (both the Bloods and the Crypts are predominantly African American gangs).

Unfortunately, I think they might be. You know, I think Fritz is actually a name in another language. I'm pretty damn sure I've heard that name before...

All of those are names in other languages. They're just not American.

Community organizing efforts by white people tend to be (from personal observation) well-meaning but hamfisted.

Fortunately, the Bloods and the Crips, while in existence, have nowhere near the influence that they did back in the 80s and 90s.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Actually it does. Once you understand the other person from another race/religion/etc. you understand they are the same as you; same intellect, feelings, and all; except for their skin color which at that point doesn't matter because you have found you may even share the same ideas and concepts and so the idea of "black man" and "white man" disappears because you are not holding a generalized assumption about a person or group of people.

You have to try and look past the things you don't like about someone before you can even begin to try and understand them. If you'e so entrenched in your bigotry against a particular religious, ethnic, or racial group, you'll never be able to understand them. You have to let go of that prejudice and look past those things before you can try to understand them.

So, no, I'm right. Understanding follows from a lack of value, understanding does not create a lack of value. You don't convince a southern white racist to not lynch a black man by saying "Gee, this guy is black, and blacks are great! You should take pride in your racial difference with him!" No, you try and get him to look past his race, and see him as a man, not so different from him. The value of race is an inhibitor to understanding, it does not bring it about.

Kudos for strong-arming your victory there.

[Viritica]

Patronizing isn't the best road to go down. I think a good way to start would be to improve our educational and welfare system. Encourage community organizations and try and build a sense of unity beyond gangs and crime. This might all sound cheesy, but it's the best I can think of. A lot of these problems are perpetuated by gangs (both the Bloods and the Crypts are predominantly African American gangs).

Unfortunately, I think they might be. You know, I think Fritz is actually a name in another language. I'm pretty damn sure I've heard that name before...

All of those are names in other languages. They're just not American.

Community organizing efforts by white people tend to be (from personal observation) well-meaning but hamfisted.

Fortunately, the Bloods and the Crips, while in existence, have nowhere near the influence that they did back in the 80s and 90s.

I understand.

And I'm not suggesting community efforts by white people. I'm suggesting a community effort by black people. That way there's less of a chance of it coming off as patronizing.

They have less influence, due largely to coordinated efforts by police and the FBI. They're still very much alive, unfortunately.

This is why I suggest a major revamping of the educational and welfare systems. Support from a decent system would create less and less of a chance of young black males joining these gangs.