Black People Are Racist Too!

[Papait]

I notice how many white people complain about his.
While the White Power thing may be true, the rest isn't.
Most datingsites, tv channels and other things are focused on you guys, the (wealthier) white population.
Minorities just want something for themself

[MERIZoC]

Go outside your neighborhood.

The race problem is solved! It's so simple. Why haven't people been doing this earlier?

I realize you're being sarcastic, but if more people did this, then we would have less racism and bigotry.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Nice strawman, you build it yourself?

Right, that hasn't actually been said by anyone in this thread. Please stick to arguments actually being made, and not strawmen.

You lot sure do love your buzzwords. Perhaps you can pull your thoughts from your own ego for a moment to notice that I was poking fun at the tumblr-crowd of misguided social justice warriors, hm?

Also, check your privilege.

It isn't a buzzword. It's an actual informal fallacy that you were engaging in in order to prove a point that still remains unclear.

[Aurora Novus]

I understand where you are coming from. But one does not simply take value and pride over a race. It is simply too drastic of a movement. It is best to take it slow and steady. Social attitudes take time to deestablish or reestablish. The very essence of pride in the end is retribution. Retribution against their oppressors. That is the very premise of any pride parade done by a minority.

And yes, I agree with you. It is just that the means to the end is not feasible. Education and mutual understanding appears to be a better route to deestablish the construct all together. The behaviour itself would 'self repress' and almost cease to exist. After all, 100% in human society is impossible.

Unless it was a test on mathematics or science.

I'm not saying a change can happen over night. But when's the last time you've heard of anyone being convinced to be a non-racist because of a pride parade, or some other form of racial pride movement? These things almost always just end up causing resentment and a dismissive attitude towards the issue, especially in younger generations. Kids don't buy this shit, and they don't buy it primarily because they see it for what it is. Playing up the importance of your own race, while trying to say that people playing up the importance of other races is inherently bad.

No, people don't become convinced in equality because race is played up in minorities. They become convinced in equality because they see those people without valuing their race.


Meanwhile, there are plenty of examples of racial pride movements only encouraging more racism, on the part of other races, and sometimes even their own members. You can't fight the displaced value fo race by playing up the importance of race. You have to unilaterally destroy the value fo race. Remove race from the public lingo, remove it from policy measures. You make skin colour as important as hair and eye colour. You don't reach that point by constantly trying to build up "pride" in your skin colour.

If you remove race from the public discourse, if you intentionally structure policy such as to dismiss race in all people, over generations, culturally people will lose their racist tendancies, because they won't live in an environment which cares about race. That is how you destroy racism, and ironically, that is the "slow and steady" way of doing it. Your idea, by comparison, is trying to bullrush equality into reality by constantly hammering people with "X group is great, don't discriminate against X group, this is our history which you caused us to experience, look at us we're so great for being a part of X group!".

[Death Metal]

This only makes sense if you redefine racism to include power as part of it's definition. For those of us who don't, you're just being a weasel.

Why should racism include some notion of power in it's deifnition? What benefit does it serve, other than allowing for minorities to be freed from any form of criticisim with the label? That isn't how people popularly understand the term now, so what benefit is there to a change in terminology?

The benefit is more descriptive because power is how racism manifests itself in the world. The category of race itself, the label attached to people, is an instrument of power that allows us to categorize people and give/ withold certain benefits from them because of their membership in that category.

So all race-based bigoty invokes the use of power, your argument is invalid.

[The Genoese Cromanatum]

It isn't a buzzword. It's an actual informal fallacy that you were engaging in in order to prove a point that still remains unclear.

Or perhaps it was a joke, as I have said? You /do/ know what sarcasm is, don't you?

[Senyosu]

Nice strawman, you build it yourself?

Right, that hasn't actually been said by anyone in this thread. Please stick to arguments actually being made, and not strawmen.

You lot sure do love your buzzwords. Perhaps you can pull your thoughts from your own ego for a moment to notice that I was poking fun at the tumblr-crowd of misguided social justice warriors, hm?

Also, check your privilege.

I will admit, as a tumblrite, those sjws can be at times a bit high and mighty. But, the extremist does have a point, though... A bit lacking in coherency and merely attacks the problem... Not solving it.

And the 'check your privilege thing is a pet peeve, as none seem to use it under the correct circumstance or context anymore.

[Draica]

Random question: If a black person does everything right (abides by the law, etc) are they still statiscally disadvantaged?

if so, then isn't it basically a very unfortunate thing to be a black person?

[Vettrera]

Nice strawman, you build it yourself?

Right, that hasn't actually been said by anyone in this thread. Please stick to arguments actually being made, and not strawmen.

You lot sure do love your buzzwords. Perhaps you can pull your thoughts from your own ego for a moment to notice that I was poking fun at the tumblr-crowd of misguided social justice warriors, hm?

Also, check your privilege.

So you were sarcastically being sarcastic or....wait....no...umm....

[Buddha Punk Robot Monks]

Racism is a social construction created by Europeans during the Era of Colonization to more effectively rule over their colored subjects. Therefore racism has always had an element of power to it. Without this power there is no racism. There can be bigotry and race prejudice, but not racism. Reverse racism is a concept created by people who don't understand how racism works structurally.

Not only is this factually incoherent (race had existed as a social construct well before then, the exact origins unclear, but the concept of seeing other people as not human or less human was not invented nor even unique to the European Colonists, see Egypt, Greece et al)... but you're just repeating the same begging the question fallacy.

How is that begging the questions? When a social construction has historically been founded upon a system of categorization that allows power to fall inequally on different sorts of groups, shouldn't the definition follow the structure?

And yes humans have been seeing each other as nonhuman for centuries, but these are primarily different -isms than racism. Racism as we know and have inherited it, and the accompanying terms of white, black, red, yellow, brown, etc, was created during the colonial era.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

It isn't a buzzword. It's an actual informal fallacy that you were engaging in in order to prove a point that still remains unclear.

Or perhaps it was a joke, as I have said? You /do/ know what sarcasm is, don't you?

Yes. It's something that you're not very good at.

[MERIZoC]

Random question: If a black person does everything right (abides by the law, etc) are they still statiscally disadvantaged?

if so, then isn't it basically a very unfortunate thing to be a black person?

Unfortunately, yes. I mean, I've already explained the socio-economic part, but just look at NY's (former) stop-and-frisk law. It heavily discriminated against law-abiding african americans.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Random question: If a black person does everything right (abides by the law, etc) are they still statiscally disadvantaged?

if so, then isn't it basically a very unfortunate thing to be a black person?

It could be seen that way.

Which is part of the reason that Black Pride movements exist, in order to address that issue.

[Liriena]

I'm sure there's tons of racist people within the many ethnic minorities in the United States and Europe. Belonging to a historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group doesn't make people incapable of treating other historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group like shit.

That being said... yeah... nah... I ain't falling for this tu quoque bullshit.

[Buddha Punk Robot Monks]

The benefit is more descriptive because power is how racism manifests itself in the world. The category of race itself, the label attached to people, is an instrument of power that allows us to categorize people and give/ withold certain benefits from them because of their membership in that category.

So all race-based bigoty invokes the use of power, your argument is invalid.

No, I said the category of race is an instrument of power, not that it is solely power's own. THe power structures that created race used it to extend their power. Without that power the category of race inspires prejudice. But you don't get the -ism until the original form of power, or an analog form of power, is present.

[Death Metal]

Not only is this factually incoherent (race had existed as a social construct well before then, the exact origins unclear, but the concept of seeing other people as not human or less human was not invented nor even unique to the European Colonists, see Egypt, Greece et al)... but you're just repeating the same begging the question fallacy.

How is that begging the questions?

You basically included the answer to your premise in the premise. That's how.

[Aurora Novus]

The benefit is more descriptive because power is how racism manifests itself in the world.

Again, power is how racism manafests itself in the world...only if you define racism as including power. You're creating a circular argument here. You're trying to redefine racism as being about power, and then saying "it's more accurate, because racism comes about by power!" Bollocks. What you call "racial prejudice" (i.e., racism without power) is racism.

The category of race itself, the label attached to people, is an instrument of power that allows us to categorize people and give/ withold certain benefits from them because of their membership in that category. Using a prejudice plus power definition also allows us to see that the primary problem when it comes to racism is not peoples' individual opinions about people of other races but how racism is institutionalized in the very fabric of our society, in our schools, courts, churches, neighborhoods, government institutions, etc.

Even if racism is a tool by which others try to hold power over one another (which I agree with), that doesn't mean we should define racism as only existing when that group holds power. That makes little sense, given what you just said. Clearly, the mere attempt to hold power, or justify a scenario of holding power, via racial discrimination or discriminatory language, is also racism. Someone who holds power over another race due to their race is exhibiting racism, but someone who wants that power, but does not have it, is also exhibiting racism.

Your definition does not allow for any advanced clarity on the issue, all it permits is the prevention of minorities from ever being labeled with a socially derisive, negatively charged term. It's a word game that simply allows for minorities to be racist without being called racist.

[Senyosu]

I understand where you are coming from. But one does not simply take value and pride over a race. It is simply too drastic of a movement. It is best to take it slow and steady. Social attitudes take time to deestablish or reestablish. The very essence of pride in the end is retribution. Retribution against their oppressors. That is the very premise of any pride parade done by a minority.

And yes, I agree with you. It is just that the means to the end is not feasible. Education and mutual understanding appears to be a better route to deestablish the construct all together. The behaviour itself would 'self repress' and almost cease to exist. After all, 100% in human society is impossible.

Unless it was a test on mathematics or science.

I'm not saying a change can happen over night. But when's the last time you've heard of anyone being convinced to be a non-racist because of a pride parade, or some other form of racial pride movement? These things almost always just end up causing resentment and a dismissive attitude towards the issue, especially in younger generations. Kids don't buy this shit, and they don't buy it primarily because they see it for what it is. Playing up the importance of your own race, while trying to say that people playing up the importance of other races is inherently bad.

No, people don't become convinced in equality because race is played up in minorities. They become convinced in equality because they see those people without valuing their race.


Meanwhile, there are plenty of examples of racial pride movements only encouraging more racism, on the part of other races, and sometimes even their own members. You can't fight the displaced value fo race by playing up the importance of race. You have to unilaterally destroy the value fo race. Remove race from the public lingo, remove it from policy measures. You make skin colour as important as hair and eye colour. You don't reach that point by constantly trying to build up "pride" in your skin colour.

If you remove race from the public discourse, if you intentionally structure policy such as to dismiss race in all people, over generations, culturally people will lose their racist tendancies, because they won't live in an environment which cares about race. That is how you destroy racism, and ironically, that is the "slow and steady" way of doing it. Your idea, by comparison, is trying to bullrush equality into reality by constantly hammering people with "X group is great, don't discriminate against X group, this is our history which you caused us to experience, look at us we're so great for being a part of X group!".

Pride is the retribution against the status quo and the celebration, if you will, of their accomplishments. It is socially ambiguous, and does leave many unanswerable questions. So is trying to remove value and pride for being different. You see, education. Edu-fucking-cation. Is the saviour of us all. To understand the opposite side is fundamentally better than speculating and leaving it ambiguous and possibly leaving it to cause even more problems down the line.

To combat all forms of racism, one does it first by protest. Then by pride. Then by dialogue. Understanding is the end of the means, and the means thus far work... It's just that they are quite ambiguous. Once all have understood one another, the value of race should be no more. This takes time. Time a paitience, of which some on both sides lack.

[Death Metal]

And yes humans have been seeing each other as nonhuman for centuries, but these are primarily different -isms than racism.

Only in the way that Scotsman have being sugaring their porridge for centuries but they weren't True Scotsmen because True Scotsmen eat porridge without sugar.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm sure there's tons of racist people within the many ethnic minorities in the United States and Europe. Belonging to a historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group doesn't make people incapable of treating other historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group like shit.

That being said... yeah... nah... I ain't falling for this tu quoque bullshit.

You know? I find that every single of these "but blacks are racists!" arguments try to justify one's positions of prejudice themselves myself. In other words, the REAL question they are asking is "if they are racists then why can't I be racist?"

It doesn't say much about the person when they actually engage in this tu quoque to actually justify their position of bigotry, which is the most common reason why this question is brought up.

[Alyakia]

Nice strawman, you build it yourself?

Right, that hasn't actually been said by anyone in this thread. Please stick to arguments actually being made, and not strawmen.

You lot sure do love your buzzwords. Perhaps you can pull your thoughts from your own ego for a moment to notice that I was poking fun at the tumblr-crowd of misguided social justice warriors, hm?

Also, check your privilege.

yes. you were misrepresenting peoples positions. that's, uh, kinda part of what a strawman is.

[Southern Malaysia]

I'm sure there's tons of racist people within the many ethnic minorities in the United States and Europe. Belonging to a historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group doesn't make people incapable of treating other historically enslaved, oppressed, ignored or mocked group like shit.

That being said... yeah... nah... I ain't falling for this tu quoque bullshit.

You know? I find that every single of these "but blacks are racists!" arguments try to justify one's positions of prejudice themselves myself. In other words, the REAL question they are asking is "if they are racists then why can't I be racist?"

It doesn't say much about the person when they actually engage in this tu quoque to actually justify their position of bigotry, which is the most common reason why this question is brought up.

Sir, I agree with you totally. People should be treated by what their actions dictate. Well said, Sir. Goodbye, Sir.

[Papait]

Random question: If a black person does everything right (abides by the law, etc) are they still statiscally disadvantaged?

if so, then isn't it basically a very unfortunate thing to be a black person?

we still are disadvantaged on the job market.
But we can say "nigger" and are basicly precieved as cool.
Can't really change any of it
So... evens stevens?

[Draica]

Random question: If a black person does everything right (abides by the law, etc) are they still statiscally disadvantaged?

if so, then isn't it basically a very unfortunate thing to be a black person?

Unfortunately, yes. I mean, I've already explained the socio-economic part, but just look at NY's (former) stop-and-frisk law. It heavily discriminated against law-abiding african americans.

*Sigh* All I'm going to do now is tune this stuff out, pretend it doesn't exist and HOPE that I meet non-racist people in the future. If I do, I'l deal with them. Hopefully my educational work pays off..

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You lot sure do love your buzzwords. Perhaps you can pull your thoughts from your own ego for a moment to notice that I was poking fun at the tumblr-crowd of misguided social justice warriors, hm?

Also, check your privilege.

yes. you were misrepresenting peoples positions. that's, uh, kinda part of what a strawman is.

Ah, but see, he was being sarcastic in order to make a point...not that he's bothered to further explain what said point was.