Do you consider the Confederate flag to be racist

[Lucipurr]

I consider the ideas of the Confederate Government to be racist, but the actual flag is merely a piece of material and cannot be racist.

[Tekania]

You're so terribly uneducated about the Confederacy, it's almost mind-blowing.

Really? If he's so uneducated, what did the Union get mad about at the start of the war?

They got mad about armed insurrection and sieges against federally owed forts such as Fort Sumter, Fort Moultrie, Fort Morgan, Fort Gaines and Fort Pulaski

[Seleucas]

I think there are contexts in which its use would not be offensive, but, likewise, its use could be seen as racist or inflammatory. That being said, I have a stronger dislike for the US flag.

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

In itself, no, but a shitload of racist fuckers use it.

[Ermarian]

The flag itself no more racist than the swastika is racist. They're colors and shapes.

They both represent some pretty unconscionable ideas, however. Anyone that displays it with pride is either racist, or ignorant of history, or both.

Sure, its display is protected speech. As Randall Munroe put it, if the most compelling thing one can say for a position is that it is not literally illegal to express, then you've basically conceded.

[Dyakovo]

38%? really? That number is way too high. How exactly can the flag(s) be considered racist?

Easily. It is a symbol of racism and treason.

[Grave_n_idle]

hush slave

You're dangerously close to breaking one of the forum rules.

If you think so, instead of a thinly veiled threat of moderation, why not actually ask the moderators?

Personally, I think that they'd take a quick read through the thread, see you arguing that a slave isn't a person, and that someone can be not-a-person because someone ELSE says that they are - and tell you that you were just being faced with your own illogical creation.

It would be interesting to find out? If you really feel like there's a forum rule being broken, go ahead and check.

[Greed and Death]

The roman empire also built its economy on slaves so they likely would have sided with the CSA.

Not if the CSA rebelled against them.

They would not have, it would have been those yankees rebelling against slavery sent to be crucified

[Sun Wukong]

(Image)

The confederate flag isn't racist. It's just a symbol of southern pride and has nothing to do with racism. The commonly used confederate flag was not even the actual flag used by the CSA. Many people that display this flag are completely unaware of it's history and a lot of them think it represents either Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Dukes of Hazzard. Even if it was racist, its display is protected free speech under the First Amendment.

If you ever find yourself falling back to the justification, "it's not literally illegal to x," you have lost the argument.

[Islamic republiq of Julundar]

I consider the ideas of the Confederate Government to be racist, but the actual flag is merely a piece of material and cannot be racist.

the Flag of the United States of America AND the Republic for which it stands.

Every flag stands for some ideology, regime, nation, church etc. That is what flags are there for.

A flag which stand for an evil ideology etc is an evil flag.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Not if the CSA rebelled against them.

They would not have, it would have been those yankees rebelling against slavery sent to be crucified

This is why people in Vermont and New Hampshire are so attached to their guns, so they can fight off the Romans. A hunting rifle isn't much use against the US Army, but it works great when the Roman Empire tries to come in and crucify you.

How did the Roman Empire get into this thread anyway?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

They would not have, it would have been those yankees rebelling against slavery sent to be crucified

This is why people in Vermont and New Hampshire are so attached to their guns, so they can fight off the Romans. A hunting rifle isn't much use against the US Army, but it works great when the Roman Empire tries to come in and crucify you.

How did the Roman Empire get into this thread anyway?

Venerunt, viderunt, vicerunt.

[Inuitland]

The flag is racist. People here in Ireland call it the Hillbilly Flag.

[Molsonian Republics]

The flag is racist. People here in Ireland call it the Hillbilly Flag.

Redneck and hillbilly are two similar but still completely different things. It's also referred to as the Dixie flag in America

[Islamic republiq of Julundar]

The flag is racist. People here in Ireland call it the Hillbilly Flag.

Redneck and hillbilly are two similar but still completely different things. It's also referred to as the Dixie flag in America

Exactly and perfectly true!

CSA = racist government; stars and bars = flag of a racist government, therefore it is a racist flag; Dixie is the anthem of a racist government, so it is a racist song.

[Tekania]

Redneck and hillbilly are two similar but still completely different things. It's also referred to as the Dixie flag in America

Exactly and perfectly true!

CSA = racist government; stars and bars = flag of a racist government, therefore it is a racist flag; Dixie is the anthem of a racist government, so it is a racist song.

The CSA had no official anthem. There were several popular songs,"Dixie" being one of them, but said song was popular in the North as well; which sure is racist in overtones is not racist based on any connection with CSA, but based upon the general racist overtones of the entrainment medium (black-face minstrel shows of the 1850's) from which it came from.

[Recondia]

(Image)

The confederate flag isn't racist. It's just a symbol of southern pride and has nothing to do with racism. The commonly used confederate flag was not even the actual flag used by the CSA. Many people that display this flag are completely unaware of it's history and a lot of them think it represents either Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Dukes of Hazzard. Even if it was racist, its display is protected free speech under the First Amendment.

Yes, the Confederate Flag does represent racism. It was the symbol of a nation founded on the principle of racist slavery. Also, yes, that was the flag of the Confederate States of America (or at least it was from May of 1863 until the fall of the CSA).

https://www.moc.org/collections-archives/flags-confederacy?mode=general

Technically there were only three National flags. The flag pictured is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (Which also used another flag at the same time) Additionally the other Armies had their own versions. Obviously Lee is the most popular General so many racists use his, I can't say I've ever seen any other Army designs used outside of the War or Reenactments, but that doesn't mean they might not have been used by racists.

Even with those flags serving the Confederate Army who thusly served the Confederate States, I don't imagine the Army as a whole having the same goal other than to protect the Confederate states, and more largely, defeat the Union forces and end the war. Sure the officers had opinions and beliefs of what their job was to do and why they were there (which is also of much debate and curiosity) but realistically their job is defend their respective nation when called on to do so. The only politics of the Confederate Armies I can think of is the fact some officers were politicians and had their rank handed to them (Bad idea).

As for the morality, a flag is a symbol, it can represent anything. If you believe it represents racism, then it represents racism, if you believe it represents a military unit (like I do, Lee's army and the various officers, and regiments it included come to my mind firstly) then it's just that.
Can it be Racist? Yes, I've seen more modern versions of that flag (with offensive symbols or wording on it, which I refuse to show here) The original design is more open to me though, for me it's more of a question if the person flying it is racist or making a political message (OR just having it for the part it played in history) I can say I have both a Union flag and a Confederate one (got them at Gettysburg, which if any of you haven't gone to by the way it's worth the trip, I also heavily recommend Vicksburg)

[Benuty]

The flag is racist. People here in Ireland call it the Hillbilly Flag.

Redneck and hillbilly are two similar but still completely different things. It's also referred to as the Dixie flag in America

Ironically there were irish immigrants who fought for the Confederates in the Kelly's Irish Brigade. Ex-confederate officers often joked they lost the war because they did not have enough Irish fighting alongside them [noted for their brazen courage in battle] compared to the Union who employed thousands more.

[Gaelic Celtia]

When it flied over armies who fought to keep the institution of slavery (yes, yes, it wasn't the primary cause and all that), it will garner some negative connotations.

Not to mention it was the flag of traitorous and rebels against the democratic system.

So, yes, all around racist and despicable rag, really.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Exactly and perfectly true!

CSA = racist government; stars and bars = flag of a racist government, therefore it is a racist flag; Dixie is the anthem of a racist government, so it is a racist song.

The CSA had no official anthem. There were several popular songs,"Dixie" being one of them, but said song was popular in the North as well; which sure is racist in overtones is not racist based on any connection with CSA, but based upon the general racist overtones of the entrainment medium (black-face minstrel shows of the 1850's) from which it came from.

Why can't it be offensively racist for both reasons?

[Tekania]

The CSA had no official anthem. There were several popular songs,"Dixie" being one of them, but said song was popular in the North as well; which sure is racist in overtones is not racist based on any connection with CSA, but based upon the general racist overtones of the entrainment medium (black-face minstrel shows of the 1850's) from which it came from.

Why can't it be offensively racist for both reasons?

Because I refuse to class that a song is racist simply because it is popular amongst some group [x] that may be racist. I have a higher opinion related to the use of the word "reason". The song was quite popular at the time north and south of the mason-dixon line, even Union soldiers would commonly sing versions of the song on marches.

[Pensalum]

Well it's just a flag, but it represents the army of a rebellion fighting for the right to own slaves (sure whatever other reasons but the right to own slaves was pretty much the main reason for secession) and therefore has many negative connotations and hateful ideas tied to it.

Nowadays, many people still fly it surprisingly. A lot of times the people who fly it are still racist, or just bigoted in other ways (not all mind you, I'm sure there are some people who are just proud to be southern or whatever)

Honestly, I don't understand how you could get pride from that symbol. It represents a failed attempt at secession, archaic systems of human ownership, and a dark point in American history. Sure, heritage, but I'm sure German people don't fly the flag of Nazi Germany, nor do Italian people people fly the Fascist Italy flag.

EDIT: Plus the flag isn't really that interesting. It's only slightly more interesting than the American flag, which isn't saying much. Plus the square shape is awkward to me.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Why can't it be offensively racist for both reasons?

Because I refuse to class that a song is racist simply because it is popular amongst some group [x] that may be racist. I have a higher opinion related to the use of the word "reason". The song was quite popular at the time north and south of the mason-dixon line, even Union soldiers would commonly sing versions of the song on marches.

Yes, a version promoting the strength of the Union, and calling the Southerners traitors.

Away down South in the land of traitors,
Rattlesnakes and alligators,
Right away, come away, right away, come away.
Where cotton's king and men are chattels,
Union boys will win the battles,
Right away, come away, right away, come away.

CHORUS: Then we'll all go down to Dixie,
Away, away,
Each Dixie boy must understand
That he must mind his Uncle Sam,
Away, away,
And we'll all go down to Dixie.
Away, away,
And we'll all go down to Dixie.

I wish I was in Baltimore,
I'd make Secession traitors roar,
Right away, come away, right away, come away.
We'll put the traitors all to rout.
I'll bet my boots we'll whip them out,
Right away, come away, right away, come away.

CHORUS: Then they'll wish they were in Dixie,
Away, away,
Each Dixie boy must understand
That he must mind his Uncle Sam,
Away, away,
And we'll all go down to Dixie.
Away, away,
And we'll all go down to Dixie.

Oh, may our Stars and Stripes still wave
Forever o'er the free and brave,
Right away, come away, right away, come away.
And let our motto ever be --
"For Union and for Liberty!"
Right away, come away, right away, come away.

CHORUS: Then they'll wish they were in Dixie,
Away, away,
Each Dixie boy must understand
That he must mind his Uncle Sam,
Away, away,
And we'll all go down to Dixie.
Away, away,
And we'll all go down to Dixie.

But since that's not the version under discussion--and, indeed, said discussion is actually occurring in another thread--I'm not sure why you brought it up.

[Viritica]

Treacherous, racist, and a just plain ugly flag.

[Pensalum]

Treacherous, racist, and a just plain ugly flag.

less ugly than the American flag though. I'm as patriotic as the next guy but our flag is boring as heck.