Do you consider the Confederate flag to be racist

[Dyakovo]

Actually they were more democratic than the United States and I middle my government off of them to an extent.

It is not racist.

Source for them being more democratic than the United States?

His ass.

[Mormak]

Don't need to.

This one is legal to carry.

And Slavery was immensely profitable for nearly the entirety of its inception in recorded history.

I won't fault people who wanted to maintain a 75% monopoly upon the production of goods in the North American Continent.

Even when it meant holding nearly an entire population in bondage, and subjecting them to the most horrific abuses? The rapes, the whippings, the beatings, the branding, the mutilations? The profit was worth that?

I don't have the words to describe how much your entire outlook on life sickens me, and likely sickens everyone with anything approaching a conscience or a sense of empathy for others.

The loss of that cheap production ultimately heralded the beginning of a second industrial revolution to merely compensate for its loss. You did know that right? Of course you did, Then of course you know how horrible that devastated the already war ruined Southern States of the former C.S.A

I won't bother citing the massive loss of labor force for the majority of the cotton, wool and grain industry. And how it led to scarcity and lack of income that further shoved the Southern States into bankruptcy and ruin, prolonging that state and their own suffering, rape and horrific abuse at the hands of occupying forces and foreign land holders.

By the time the revolution ended just a bit before the great war, The damage for the most part had been repaired for more then a generation it lingered merely because of the sudden removal of it, So do i fault people for fighting to be rid it? No, but do i think it should have been done a different way that would have led to economic ruination for the better part of fifty years for the majority of the population of the Southern States? Yes.

Also i am ignoring the hyperbolic insult to to my personage, you do not know me well enough to make such a judgement, No point in responding to it.

[Kanatistan]

Actually they were more democratic than the United States and I middle my government off of them to an extent.

It is not racist.

Source for them being more democratic than the United States?

The states in the south were a confederation and their central government could only make diplomacy, tax VERY little, and make war. The states could leave it at any time and make Ther own laws.

The United States was the opposite.

[Dyakovo]

Even when it meant holding nearly an entire population in bondage, and subjecting them to the most horrific abuses? The rapes, the whippings, the beatings, the branding, the mutilations? The profit was worth that?

I don't have the words to describe how much your entire outlook on life sickens me, and likely sickens everyone with anything approaching a conscience or a sense of empathy for others.

The loss of that cheap production ultimately heralded the beginning of a second industrial revolution to merely compensate for its loss. You did know that right? Of course you did, Then of course you know how horrible that devastated the already war ruined Southern States of the former C.S.A

I won't bother citing the massive loss of labor force for the majority of the cotton, wool and grain industry. And how it led to scarcity and lack of income that further shoved the Southern States into bankruptcy and ruin, prolonging that state and their own suffering, rape and horrific abuse at the hands of occupying forces and foreign land holders.

By the time the revolution ended just a bit before the great war, The damage for the most part had been repaired for more then a generation it lingered merely because of the sudden removal of it, So do i fault people for fighting to be rid it? No, but do i think it should have been done a different way that would have led to economic ruination for the better part of fifty years for the majority of the population of the Southern States? Yes.

Also i am ignoring the hyperbolic insult to to my personage, you do not know me well enough to make such a judgement, No point in responding to it.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but paid labor is more cost effective than slave labor.
The economic woes of the south were due to the war itself, not the emancipation of the slaves.

[Personal Freedom]

Even when it meant holding nearly an entire population in bondage, and subjecting them to the most horrific abuses? The rapes, the whippings, the beatings, the branding, the mutilations? The profit was worth that?

I don't have the words to describe how much your entire outlook on life sickens me, and likely sickens everyone with anything approaching a conscience or a sense of empathy for others.

The loss of that cheap production ultimately heralded the beginning of a second industrial revolution to merely compensate for its loss. You did know that right? Of course you did, Then of course you know how horrible that devastated the already war ruined Southern States of the former C.S.A

I won't bother citing the massive loss of labor force for the majority of the cotton, wool and grain industry. And how it led to scarcity and lack of income that further shoved the Southern States into bankruptcy and ruin, prolonging that state and their own suffering, rape and horrific abuse at the hands of occupying forces and foreign land holders.

By the time the revolution ended just a bit before the great war, The damage for the most part had been repaired for more then a generation it lingered merely because of the sudden removal of it, So do i fault people for fighting to be rid it? No, but do i think it should have been done a different way that would have led to economic ruination for the better part of fifty years for the majority of the population of the Southern States? Yes.

Also i am ignoring the hyperbolic insult to to my personage, you do not know me well enough to make such a judgement, No point in responding to it.

I do not believe the particular institution played as much a role as you think. Maybe the majority of the money was produced by slavery, but the majority of white people weren't running plantations. It is the war that destroyed them, the end of slavery just killed the nobles.

[Dyakovo]

Source for them being more democratic than the United States?

The states in the south were a confederation and their central government could only make diplomacy, tax VERY little, and make war. The states could leave it at any time and make Ther own laws.

The United States was the opposite.

Absolute bullshit.
The only thing you managed to get right is that they were a confederation.

[Mormak]

The loss of that cheap production ultimately heralded the beginning of a second industrial revolution to merely compensate for its loss. You did know that right? Of course you did, Then of course you know how horrible that devastated the already war ruined Southern States of the former C.S.A

I won't bother citing the massive loss of labor force for the majority of the cotton, wool and grain industry. And how it led to scarcity and lack of income that further shoved the Southern States into bankruptcy and ruin, prolonging that state and their own suffering, rape and horrific abuse at the hands of occupying forces and foreign land holders.

By the time the revolution ended just a bit before the great war, The damage for the most part had been repaired for more then a generation it lingered merely because of the sudden removal of it, So do i fault people for fighting to be rid it? No, but do i think it should have been done a different way that would have led to economic ruination for the better part of fifty years for the majority of the population of the Southern States? Yes.

Also i am ignoring the hyperbolic insult to to my personage, you do not know me well enough to make such a judgement, No point in responding to it.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but paid labor is more cost effective than slave labor.
The economic woes of the south were due to the war itself, not the emancipation of the slaves.

In a normal free market scenario? Yes but i hate to break it to YOU, but the Confederacy and its member states, even before seccession had drastically changed things from a normal free market scenario.

There were so many incentives and reimbursements for the owning of slaves (At the state and even Federal level) For the better part of sixty years that i could reasonably argue that it was comparable if not more so in terms of cost effectiveness to own slaves or employ a free workforce.

But you know this of course, about the incentives designed to cheap the cheap production force cost effective, you know, maintain the southern monopoly on grains, fiber and production goods.

...So it may not have hurt (although i would argue it did given it forced them to reinvest in heavy industry right after a war) But it certainly didn't help at all.

[Dyakovo]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but paid labor is more cost effective than slave labor.
The economic woes of the south were due to the war itself, not the emancipation of the slaves.

In a normal free market scenario? Yes but i hate to break it to YOU, but the Confederacy and its member states, even before seccession had drastically changed things from a normal free market scenario.

There were so many incentives and reimbursements for the owning of slaves (At the state and even Federal level) For the better part of sixty years that i could reasonably argue that it was comparable if not more so in terms of cost effectiveness to own slaves or employ a free workforce.

But you know this of course, about the incentives designed to cheap the cheap production force cost effective, you know, maintain the southern monopoly on grains, fiber and production goods.

...So it may not have hurt (although i would argue it did given it forced them to reinvest in heavy industry right after a war) But it certainly didn't help at all.

"Giving up slavery"=/="being forced to reinvest in heavy industry"

[Kanatistan]

The states in the south were a confederation and their central government could only make diplomacy, tax VERY little, and make war. The states could leave it at any time and make Ther own laws.

The United States was the opposite.

Absolute bullshit.
The only thing you managed to get right is that they were a confederation.

Do you know the definition of Confederation and how it was different from United States federation?

[Dyakovo]

Absolute bullshit.
The only thing you managed to get right is that they were a confederation.

Do you know the definition of Confederation and how it was different from United States federation?

Read the CSA constitution.

[Mormak]

In a normal free market scenario? Yes but i hate to break it to YOU, but the Confederacy and its member states, even before seccession had drastically changed things from a normal free market scenario.

There were so many incentives and reimbursements for the owning of slaves (At the state and even Federal level) For the better part of sixty years that i could reasonably argue that it was comparable if not more so in terms of cost effectiveness to own slaves or employ a free workforce.

But you know this of course, about the incentives designed to cheap the cheap production force cost effective, you know, maintain the southern monopoly on grains, fiber and production goods.

...So it may not have hurt (although i would argue it did given it forced them to reinvest in heavy industry right after a war) But it certainly didn't help at all.

"Giving up slavery"=/="being forced to reinvest in heavy industry"

In regards to Post C.S.A Southern United States?

Yes, You have to make up for the massive reduction in manpower.

[Dyakovo]

"Giving up slavery"=/="being forced to reinvest in heavy industry"

In regards to Post C.S.A Southern United States?

Yes, You have to make up for the massive reduction in manpower.

A massive reduction in manpower that was the result of the war, not emancipation.

[Islamic republiq of Julundar]

Absolute bullshit.
The only thing you managed to get right is that they were a confederation.

Do you know the definition of Confederation and how it was different from United States federation?

CSA truly respected Local Autonomy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia#Separation_from_Virginia West Virginia sang "You can't scare me, I'm sticking with the Union" and split to stay in USA. CSA did NOT respect West Va's Local Autonomy, CSA invaded West Va in 1861 and 1863.

[Personal Freedom]

Do you know the definition of Confederation and how it was different from United States federation?

CSA truly respected Local Autonomy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia#Separation_from_Virginia West Virginia sang "You can't scare me, I'm sticking with the Union" and split to stay in USA. CSA did NOT respect West Va's Local Autonomy, CSA invaded West Va in 1861 and 1863.

They raided the state. You would think Jackson wouldn't have let them.

[Mormak]

Do you know the definition of Confederation and how it was different from United States federation?

CSA truly respected Local Autonomy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia#Separation_from_Virginia West Virginia sang "You can't scare me, I'm sticking with the Union" and split to stay in USA. CSA did NOT respect West Va's Local Autonomy, CSA invaded West Va in 1861 and 1863.

Sounds like what the Union did during the opening days of the war, what with them stationing forces and fortifying a military position in the midst of a sovereign Nation that requested they vacant the position several times.

I'd say neither of these governments overly respected anything when it went against their own interest.

[Tekania]

Source for them being more democratic than the United States?

The states in the south were a confederation and their central government could only make diplomacy, tax VERY little, and make war. The states could leave it at any time and make Ther own laws.

The United States was the opposite.

You're confusing the United States under the Articles of Confederation with the Confederate States of America, the Confederate government had just about identical powers to the United States Government, including the power to lay and collect tax. They limited protectionist tariffs and extending power to tax use of inter-coastal waterways, and limit the potential funding for the post office. They also gave their executive line-item veto power.... something the US did not get till later.

[Dyakovo]

CSA truly respected Local Autonomy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia#Separation_from_Virginia West Virginia sang "You can't scare me, I'm sticking with the Union" and split to stay in USA. CSA did NOT respect West Va's Local Autonomy, CSA invaded West Va in 1861 and 1863.

Sounds like what the Union did during the opening days of the war, what with them stationing forces and fortifying a military position in the midst of a sovereign Nation that requested they vacant the position several times.

I'd say neither of these governments overly respected anything when it went against their own interest.

That never happened.

[Mormak]

Sounds like what the Union did during the opening days of the war, what with them stationing forces and fortifying a military position in the midst of a sovereign Nation that requested they vacant the position several times.

I'd say neither of these governments overly respected anything when it went against their own interest.

That never happened.

To your perspective or histories?

Because Fort Sumter was the first shot of the war.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Even when it meant holding nearly an entire population in bondage, and subjecting them to the most horrific abuses? The rapes, the whippings, the beatings, the branding, the mutilations? The profit was worth that?

I don't have the words to describe how much your entire outlook on life sickens me, and likely sickens everyone with anything approaching a conscience or a sense of empathy for others.

The loss of that cheap production ultimately heralded the beginning of a second industrial revolution to merely compensate for its loss. You did know that right? Of course you did, Then of course you know how horrible that devastated the already war ruined Southern States of the former C.S.A

I won't bother citing the massive loss of labor force for the majority of the cotton, wool and grain industry. And how it led to scarcity and lack of income that further shoved the Southern States into bankruptcy and ruin, prolonging that state and their own suffering, rape and horrific abuse at the hands of occupying forces and foreign land holders.

By the time the revolution ended just a bit before the great war, The damage for the most part had been repaired for more then a generation it lingered merely because of the sudden removal of it, So do i fault people for fighting to be rid it? No, but do i think it should have been done a different way that would have led to economic ruination for the better part of fifty years for the majority of the population of the Southern States? Yes.

Also i am ignoring the hyperbolic insult to to my personage, you do not know me well enough to make such a judgement, No point in responding to it.

Your insistence that the loss of labor was directly responsible for the loss of labor force and the various economic crises that troubled the South for generations have already been responded to.

And my argument would be that they could have kept a labor force if they'd simply paid free workers.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

That never happened.

To your perspective or histories?

Because Fort Sumter was the first shot of the war.

It was, and his point stands.

[Dyakovo]

That never happened.

To your perspective or histories?

Because Fort Sumter was the first shot of the war.

Fort Sumter was not a case of the Union stationing troops in a sovereign nation.
Fort Sumter was a US Army base, and as such, neither South Carolina nor the CSA had any claim to it.

[Islamic republiq of Julundar]

CSA truly respected Local Autonomy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia#Separation_from_Virginia West Virginia sang "You can't scare me, I'm sticking with the Union" and split to stay in USA. CSA did NOT respect West Va's Local Autonomy, CSA invaded West Va in 1861 and 1863.

They raided the state. You would think Jackson wouldn't have let them.

Jackson let them raid Frederick Town http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Frietchie

[Bootylicia]

And how did that work out for them?

[Mormak]

To your perspective or histories?

Because Fort Sumter was the first shot of the war.

Fort Sumter was not a case of the Union stationing troops in a sovereign nation.
Fort Sumter was a US Army base, and as such, neither South Carolina nor the CSA had any claim to it.

It was a foreign military base with out right to be there the moment SC succeeded. Add in the arms build up going on there even prior to the secession and you have a recipe for the Mess Lincoln caused by appointing that idiot to head the garrison there, His orders were to monitor the situation and not cause undue tension in the region.

He caused a war between the Union and C.S.A by not forfeiting the fort the moment it was requested to do so.

To your perspective or histories?

Because Fort Sumter was the first shot of the war.

It was, and his point stands.

Perhaps Federalists would construe it differently? But i don't.

[Bootylicia]

It's hilarious to me in a really sad way how people here can, in defense of the Confederacy (and its symbols), claim that it wasn't an inherently racist entity. That's like saying that the Nazi Swastika isn't racist because "WWII wasn't about anti-Semitism". Although that assertion is accurate, one can't separate the two. Was every German soldier a Nazi? No, but that doesn't make the Nazi German flag any less racist.