Do you consider the Confederate flag to be racist

[Bootylicia]

It wasn't just big plantation owners that owned slaves. Almost 1/3 of Southern families owned at least one slave. In a couple of the Southern States, the percentage of slave owners was even higher, around 1/2.

[Personal Freedom]

It wasn't just big plantation owners that owned slaves. Almost 1/3 of Southern families owned at least one slave. In a couple of the Southern States, the percentage of slave owners was even higher, around 1/2.

Source?

[Sun Wukong]

It wasn't just big plantation owners that owned slaves. Almost 1/3 of Southern families owned at least one slave. In a couple of the Southern States, the percentage of slave owners was even higher, around 1/2.

Source?

That's almost certainly true depending upon how loosely one defines "families."

[Bootylicia]

It wasn't just big plantation owners that owned slaves. Almost 1/3 of Southern families owned at least one slave. In a couple of the Southern States, the percentage of slave owners was even higher, around 1/2.

Source?

The 1860 census by way of:

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html

http://history.furman.edu/~benson/docs/shfam60.htm

The following article debunks many of the myths being perpetuated here about why the Southern States did or did not secede.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 06547.html

[The Soviet German Empire]

"History is written by the victors."
-Winston Churchill

I think that's probably the truest thing ever written. Things are not always black and white, that's just how they're shown to us. Now, slavery was the final nail in the coffin (actually, the election of Abraham Lincoln, but that doesn't matter right now). The actual coffin is that the Old Democrats were angry that they were now outnumbered by the Old Republicans. Basically anything they said or did would be put down by the Republicans because they dominated basically the entire government. And so, they decided "Why should we be in a government where, even if our entire party voted for a single issue, we would still lose?" So they decided to break off. The reason they broke off was that Congress was Republican by a vast majority, and so slavery would be declared illegal with out even a second voting. This was these people's way of life, which is sad, and disgusting, but they didn't know what else to do. So they left. And then they... Eh, you know the rest.

[Antarticaria]

"History is written by the victors."
-Winston Churchill

I think that's probably the truest thing ever written. Things are not always black and white, that's just how they're shown to us. Now, slavery was the final nail in the coffin (actually, the election of Abraham Lincoln, but that doesn't matter right now). The actual coffin is that the Old Democrats were angry that they were now outnumbered by the Old Republicans. Basically anything they said or did would be put down by the Republicans because they dominated basically the entire government. And so, they decided "Why should we be in a government where, even if our entire party voted for a single issue, we would still lose?" So they decided to break off. The reason they broke off was that Congress was Republican by a vast majority, and so slavery would be declared illegal with out even a second voting. This was these people's way of life, which is sad, and disgusting, but they didn't know what else to do. So they left. And then they... Eh, you know the rest.

Nice touch with the Churchill quote.

[Bootylicia]

The reason they broke off was that Congress was Republican by a vast majority, and so slavery would be declared illegal with out even a second voting. This was these people's way of life, which is sad, and disgusting, but they didn't know what else to do. So they left. And then they... Eh, you know the rest.

You've made a fair point, but Congress wasn't "Republican by a vast majority". The House was, but near parity in the Senate between Free States and Slave States had been maintained by the various political compromises (Missouri Compromise, Compromise of 1850, and Kansas-Nebraska Act) almost up until the fateful election of 1860. The GOP was only born in 1854. AND, the Supreme Court had already ruled in defense of slavery (i.e. slaves as property, and property rights sacrosanct and applicable in the territories as well as the states) in the Dred Scott decision. So, the Slave States had that going in their favor too. You can't slip far-reaching legislation like something banning slavery without the acquiescence of the Supreme Court. I think it's also worth mentioning that the Democratic Party had split into two factions, the pro-Popular Sovereignty Northern Democrats (S. Douglas) and the "we must preserve slavery by assuring its spread west" Southern Democrats (J. Breckenridge). Once again, the salient issue that divided them was slavery.

[Tekania]

It wasn't just big plantation owners that owned slaves. Almost 1/3 of Southern families owned at least one slave. In a couple of the Southern States, the percentage of slave owners was even higher, around 1/2.

On average 5% of the southern population owned slaves. The ownership level was highest in South Carolina at about 8.9% (Mississippi trailing right behind it at the #2 spot at 8.7%) of the population (calculated as total free-men population not including slaves), and lowest in Virginia at 0.5% of the population.

[The Padelas Empire]

Oh well then I apologize for being rash.

They have ointments for that now.

Really? You really want to go there?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

They have ointments for that now.

Really? You really want to go there?

Please, it was a silly joke and obviously not meant to be insulting to you in any way. If it came across differently to you, then I apologize.

[Mandicoria]

I don't consider it racist, however, I can see why people would see it as such.
I just see it a flag American "Nationalists" ironically use. Seeing on how it was a flag used by traitors to the country itself.

Only a person who hates the America we know today should fly it.

Agreed.

[Great Empire of Gamilus]

>implying you know what that means



well I believe that the Confederate flag is up their with the Nazi Swastika when it comes to racism in certain groups. (since there is a difference in the eastern and western variations of the Swastika for example)
and that the Confederate flag represents a misbegotten pride in slavery to some while to others its a symbol of defiance. tho due to mainstream media it is being associated with the former more or less.

Do not waste your time with Dyakovo, all he does is use snark and thinly veiled insults.

wait its a he? and here I thought something else... blatant troll is blatant..

[Vulpae]

"History is written by the victors."
-Winston Churchill

I think that's probably the truest thing ever written. Things are not always black and white, that's just how they're shown to us. Now, slavery was the final nail in the coffin (actually, the election of Abraham Lincoln, but that doesn't matter right now). The actual coffin is that the Old Democrats were angry that they were now outnumbered by the Old Republicans. Basically anything they said or did would be put down by the Republicans because they dominated basically the entire government. And so, they decided "Why should we be in a government where, even if our entire party voted for a single issue, we would still lose?" So they decided to break off. The reason they broke off was that Congress was Republican by a vast majority, and so slavery would be declared illegal with out even a second voting. This was these people's way of life, which is sad, and disgusting, but they didn't know what else to do. So they left. And then they... Eh, you know the rest.

The republicans, mind you these were a different breed, not current republicans who are an entirely different breed largely defined and addicted to reganomics. Had only a slim majority in both houses, and the supreme court was democrat stacked.
The south, with it's larger population (because slaves counted as 1/3 person, giving them a big population boost) and wealthy plantation economy, had dominated the legislative branch for two generations, and used that leverage to cram legislation down the North's throat. including the fugitive slave act, which no northern state voted for, but was still used as an excuse to drag free men in the north into slavery. The abolitionists, and industrialization, combined with a rising population, allowed the north to level the playing field. They voted overwhelmingly in favor of Lincon, and he was able to get into office with no electoral votes from Dixie. this was because he won the entire country outside Dixie.

For the first time things didn't go the south's way, Lincon didn't have the power to ban it, but refused to allow them to spread slavery to the west, or into south America, which confederate "patriots" tend to forget.
So what did the plantation autocrats do?
The ragequit America because they couldn't take their plantation based economy into new lands, and enslave new peoples to "benefit" from the southern way, for the good of freedom of course...

you remember how a bunch of Texan republicans decided they'd petition to leave the US because the president was black, a democrat, and they were worried he'd turn the country into soviet Russia... multiply that times the Dixie states, give them more money, and the balls to think they can take the rest of the country in a stand up war. oh and the slavery, don't forget to add the whipping and lynching of other colored people.

[Distruzio]

I agree with you. Which is why I wonder why you're doing it?

Whoa everybody, we all hate the flag, right? Or at least what it stands for?
All in all, the flag represents the South now, and there's really no reversing that.

Nope. I don't hate it. Don't hate what it stood for. I do hate what it has come to represent to people outside of the south.

[Antarticaria]

Whoa everybody, we all hate the flag, right? Or at least what it stands for?
All in all, the flag represents the South now, and there's really no reversing that.

Nope. I don't hate it. Don't hate what it stood for. I do hate what it has come to represent to people outside of the south.

thats pretty much the fine line is location.

[Hebalobia]

(Image)

The confederate flag isn't racist. It's just a symbol of southern pride and has nothing to do with racism. The commonly used confederate flag was not even the actual flag used by the CSA. Many people that display this flag are completely unaware of it's history and a lot of them think it represents either Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Dukes of Hazzard. Even if it was racist, its display is protected free speech under the First Amendment.

Then those people are idiots that need to be educated. You're right, displaying the flag is free speech protected by the 1st Amendment but that doesn't mean its not racist.

[The Padelas Empire]

(Image)

The confederate flag isn't racist. It's just a symbol of southern pride and has nothing to do with racism. The commonly used confederate flag was not even the actual flag used by the CSA. Many people that display this flag are completely unaware of it's history and a lot of them think it represents either Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Dukes of Hazzard. Even if it was racist, its display is protected free speech under the First Amendment.

Then those people are idiots that need to be educated. You're right, displaying the flag is free speech protected by the 1st Amendment but that doesn't mean its not racist.

Doesn't mean it is either. Depends on the context.

[Mormak]

Then those people are idiots that need to be educated. You're right, displaying the flag is free speech protected by the 1st Amendment but that doesn't mean its not racist.

Doesn't mean it is either. Depends on the context.

In and of it self the rejection of Federalism is not racist.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Doesn't mean it is either. Depends on the context.

In and of it self the rejection of Federalism is not racist.

Then find a flag that represents a rejection of Federalism that wasn't carried into battle by people looking to indefinitely maintain the existence of race-based chattel slavery.

[Kanatistan]

It's not only racist, it's also the symbol of anti-democratic traitors who turned against not only the values of this country, but also the values of modernity.

But it is protected under the first amendment.

Actually they were more democratic than the United States and I middle my government off of them to an extent.

It is not racist.

[Mormak]

In and of it self the rejection of Federalism is not racist.

Then find a flag that represents a rejection of Federalism that wasn't carried into battle by people looking to indefinitely maintain the existence of race-based chattel slavery.

Don't need to.

This one is legal to carry.

And Slavery was immensely profitable for nearly the entirety of its inception in recorded history.

I won't fault people who wanted to maintain a 75% monopoly upon the production of goods in the North American Continent.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Then find a flag that represents a rejection of Federalism that wasn't carried into battle by people looking to indefinitely maintain the existence of race-based chattel slavery.

Don't need to.

This one is legal to carry.

And Slavery was immensely profitable for nearly the entirety of its inception in recorded history.

I won't fault people who wanted to maintain a 75% monopoly upon the production of goods in the North American Continent.

Even when it meant holding nearly an entire population in bondage, and subjecting them to the most horrific abuses? The rapes, the whippings, the beatings, the branding, the mutilations? The profit was worth that?

I don't have the words to describe how much your entire outlook on life sickens me, and likely sickens everyone with anything approaching a conscience or a sense of empathy for others.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

It's not only racist, it's also the symbol of anti-democratic traitors who turned against not only the values of this country, but also the values of modernity.

But it is protected under the first amendment.

Actually they were more democratic than the United States and I middle my government off of them to an extent.

It is not racist.

Source for them being more democratic than the United States?

[Democratic Siberia]

People who romanticize the CSA today are romanticizing a state predicated entirely upon racial subjugation. Those who claim the war was not about slavery are being whitewashing the history of a culture they feel affinity to, for the socioeconomic and sociocultural differences and conflicts between the north and south revolved paramountly around the issue of slavery, and this very clear from speeches, proclamations, and other such evidence of the time that the CSA. Though many in the North did not begin the war as an effort to free the slaves, the south began the war as an effort to keep the slaves and maintain the political power of the slaveholding bloc. By romanticizing such a state, and thus seeking to discount the horrors of slavery, the display of the Confederate flag is a racist act.

As for your point about the flag commonly displayed (Battle Army of Northern Virginia) not being the flag of the CSA, I don't care... In the first place, the CSA Flag 1st pattern (Stars and Bars) was replaced after a few years with the CSA Flag 2nd pattern and then 3rd pattern, both of which based themselves off of this very same battle flag, displaying it in the canton. Secondly, people displaying the battle flag are attempting to display affinity to the CSA, so they are still being racists…just uninformed ones.

Of course it is protected by the 1st amendment. That has nothing to do with whether something is racist.

[Democratic Siberia]

I won't fault people who wanted to maintain a 75% monopoly upon the production of goods in the North American Continent.

You won't fault such people??? These people held millions in the physical and psychological torments of being OWNED. Do you believe that absolutely anything is justifiable as long as it turns a profit? Even systematic murder, rape, exploitation (i. e. slavery)? For PROFIT? PROFIT makes it okay? The perpetuated domination of an economic oligarchy is so positive and moral that its continuation justifies SLAVERY? I think this is a good illustration of how morally bankrupt the fetishization of profit is. I am truly at a loss for words...