Which God?

[Abdju]

Heightened churchgoing - such as is the norm for communities where the religion really does dominate, like Muslim communities - would be a sign. Of course, it's hard to quantify stuff like this but Christianity has pretty much no impact here. This is something an Australian immigrant I know notes - that it appears Christian, with all the hymn-singing at Christmas and churches everywhere - but isn't.

The number of Muslims who regularly attend the mosque may surprise you. Women are not require to attend at all, and men are only required to pray as a group on Friday midday prayer. This is group prayer, doesn't have to be a mosque. As such, many pray in a surau at work, on campus or at home with family. Or, they don't..

Of course, this doesn't mean that religious devotion isn't solely expressed through attending church. Of course it is, and is the only correct way of showing religious devotion. Anyone who doesn't is an atheist.

Now, of course, in Northern Ireland it's different.

Damn right. The rest of the UK should follow the example of NI when it comes to religion.

But I'd still be Catholic on paper unless I managed to somehow excommunicate myself.

No. In the United Kingdom everyone in the country (citizen or not) is required register on the census that is made every 10 years. One of the (optional) fields in the census document is one that allows you to register your religious affiliation. That is where the official statistics concerning religious affiliation in the United Kingdom come from. So, the fact is, that according the census, where the person them self declares their religion, is where that high figures comes from, because the dominant culture in the UK is Christian. You are not underdog, stop trying to pretend otherwise.

[Tokos]

Optional. Heh. That kind of nails it. The apathetic won't write in, for one thing. This is a similar phenomenon to that of the supposed "atheists being more intelligent" than religious people, when of course dummies won't generally bother to go through the process of declaring themselves atheist.

As to the Muslim thing - surely that still counts as "religious worship"? Admittedly, I was only using the church attendance barometer for mainstream Christian attendance, as that was the topic. But the last Mass I attended was in a house, not in a church, so you can't assume too much from the house thing.

If the "dominant culture" is Christian, then why do a minority say Jesus Christ was son of God? I now remember the phrase I was looking for - post-Christian. Britain is pretty much a spiritual battleground now, which also accounts for the rise of paganism. The people growing up today are often ignorant of Biblical and Christian matters, which interestingly enough people like Mr Dawkins are against, as they see knowledge of the traditional religion as a safeguard against going to other, "odder" religions.

[Sidh Ohn]

The Great Old One Chthulhu's mor benevolent cousin: The Flying Spaggeti Monster of course!

[Abdju]

Optional. Heh. That kind of nails it. The apathetic won't write in, for one thing. This is a similar phenomenon to that of the supposed "atheists being more intelligent" than religious people, when of course dummies won't generally bother to go through the process of declaring themselves atheist.

The census of 2001 indicated over 92% people did actually fill in the religious details, and this is the official breakdown:

here are 37.3 million people in England and Wales who state their religion as Christian. The percentage of Christians is similar between the two countries but the proportion of people who follow other religions is 6.0 per cent in England compared with 1.5 per cent in Wales.

In England, 3.1 per cent of the population state their religion as Muslim (0.7 per cent in Wales), making this the most common religion after Christianity.

For other religions, 1.1 per cent in England and 0.2 per cent in Wales are Hindu, 0.7 per cent in England and 0.1 per cent in Wales are Sikh, 0.5 per cent in England and 0.1 per cent in Wales are Jewish and 0.3 per cent in England and 0.2 per cent in Wales are Buddhist.

In England and Wales 7.7 million people state they have no religion (14.6 per cent in England and 18.5 per cent in Wales).

The English region with the highest proportion of Christians is the North East (80.1 per cent). London has the highest proportion of Muslims (8.5 per cent), Hindus (4.1 per cent) Jews (2.1 per cent) Buddhists (0.8 per cent) and people of other religions (0.5 per cent).

Fifty-eight per cent of people in London gave their religion as Christian, with the highest proportion in the borough of Havering (76 per cent). Thirty-six per cent of the population of Tower Hamlets and 24 per cent in Newham are Muslim. Over one per cent of the population of Westminster are Buddhist, while Harrow has the highest proportion of Hindus (19.6 per cent) and Barnet the highest proportion of Jewish people (14.8 per cent). Over eight per cent of the populations of Hounslow and Ealing are Sikh.

Sixteen per cent of the population of London say they have no religion, including 25 per cent in the City of London.

Outside London, the counties with the highest proportion of Christians are Durham, Merseyside and Cumbria, each with 82 per cent or more. The districts with the highest proportions of Christians are all in the North West: St Helens, Wigan and Copeland (Cumbria) each have 86 per cent or more.

The district with the highest proportion of Sikhs is Slough. One person in seven of the population of Leicester is Hindu. One person in nine of the population of Hertsmere in Hertfordshire, is Jewish. Over one per cent of the population of Cambridge are Buddhist. Brighton and Hove has most people stating other religions (0.8 per cent).

The districts with the highest proportions of people with no religion are Norwich, Brighton and Hove and Cambridge, all with over one-quarter.

In Wales, the highest proportion of Christians is found on the Isle of Anglesey (79 per cent) and the fewest in Blaenau Gwent (64 per cent). Rhonnda, Cynon, Taff has the highest proportion with no religion (25 per cent). Cardiff has the highest proportion of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and Jews. Ceredigion has the highest proportions of Buddhists and people of other religions.

At the time the Census was carried out, there was an internet campaign that encouraged people to answer the religion question "Jedi Knight". The number of people who stated Jedi was 390,000 (0.7 per cent of the population).

The religion question was voluntary, and 4,011,000 people chose not answer it (7.7 per cent).

Source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001 ... p#religion

As to the Muslim thing - surely that still counts as "religious worship"? Admittedly, I was only using the church attendance barometer for mainstream Christian attendance, as that was the topic. But the last Mass I attended was in a house, not in a church, so you can't assume too much from the house thing.

Then your own point, by virtue of your own example, is invalid. If both Christians and Muslims are praying at home, then the whole church attendance thing becomes completely invalid for both sides, and any other religion that involves worship at home.

If the "dominant culture" is Christian, then why do a minority say Jesus Christ was son of God?

That wasn't asked on the census, so I don't know where that data comes from. It could be any number of factors. Bear in mind that many Christians (including those in the CoE) question the divine birth but still regard the Christian religion as being of religious value for other reasons. Disregard for one specific aspect of a belief system doesn't undermine ones faith in the entire religion.

Although I reconciled it in the end, for a while I questioned some beliefs in my own religion. At that time I still considered myself Heliopolitan, and would put that if asked in any official capacity. I never considered myself an atheist or agnostic, or an adherent of another belief system, and wasn't considered as such by others. I would be a similar story for most non-extremist sects of any other religion.

I now remember the phrase I was looking for - post-Christian. Britain is pretty much a spiritual battleground now, which also accounts for the rise of paganism.

That sounds ominous. Also I should point out that from a pagan point of view, very few pagan religions consider the battleground paradigm valid. They don't generally consider either recruitment of followers or number of followers to be important or meaningful to the development of their religion, in most cases. That's certainly true for my religion, which is essentially blind to number of followers, provided the cult rituals and worship is maintained. So, let's here no more of this battleground nonsense in regards to pagan religions, because most pagan adherents just not interested.

The people growing up today are often ignorant of Biblical and Christian matters, which interestingly enough people like Mr Dawkins are against, as they see knowledge of the traditional religion as a safeguard against going to other, "odder" religions.

Religious Education is a mandatory subject under the National Curriculum. Every child studies it. Remember, church and state in UK are joined, the Christianity under threat thing just doesn't wash here. If there is a "battleground" over religion in the UK, it'll be my people who loose, not yours.

[Cross-Rhodes]

There are plenty of Christians on NSG who I have interacted with for (literally) years without ever being vitriolic about their beliefs.

It's not the Christianity that's the problem, honestly, it's that some Christians seem to think that being Christian should be like a free pass to act however they want. They think they should be able to act in ways that would be considered rude in any other context, but because they invoke Jesus nobody should get to be upset with them. They think they should be able to say and do things that would get anybody else punched in the face, but as long as they say/do them in the context of being Christian then it's all good.

The Christians I get along with are the ones who view their Christianity as a reason to behave better, not as an excuse to act worse.

This statement, as simple as it may seem, should be required for all Christians to read. Maybe they should make it part of a Sunday School curriculum or something...I could not agree more with this statement, and it grieves me to do so.

Additionally, I would like to only support the claims made against Western Christianity, as opposed to the Christianity of those in other place where their faith is despised and not pampered. My heart and prayers go out to those people every day. I have a feeling that all of the massive churches, TV shows, and programs American Christians purport don't contain the actual faith that is in the heart of a lone believer in Abba or Baghdad.

Another interesting thought is that we Americans purport Christianity to be the basis of our nation - thereby making American citizens automatically predisposed to being Christian (and better ones, at that). However, I know better Christian communists than capitalists. People whose very life and basis is not cooperative with what is known as the "American way of life" are phenomenal Christians - and in many ways stronger Christians than their Western counterparts.

Just saying - it's in your walk, not your talk. Excellent thoughts, so far.

[Sidh Ohn]

There are plenty of Christians on NSG who I have interacted with for (literally) years without ever being vitriolic about their beliefs.

It's not the Christianity that's the problem, honestly, it's that some Christians seem to think that being Christian should be like a free pass to act however they want. They think they should be able to act in ways that would be considered rude in any other context, but because they invoke Jesus nobody should get to be upset with them. They think they should be able to say and do things that would get anybody else punched in the face, but as long as they say/do them in the context of being Christian then it's all good.

The Christians I get along with are the ones who view their Christianity as a reason to behave better, not as an excuse to act worse.

This statement, as simple as it may seem, should be required for all Christians to read. Maybe they should make it part of a Sunday School curriculum or something...I could not agree more with this statement, and it grieves me to do so.

Additionally, I would like to only support the claims made against Western Christianity, as opposed to the Christianity of those in other place where their faith is despised and not pampered. My heart and prayers go out to those people every day. I have a feeling that all of the massive churches, TV shows, and programs American Christians purport don't contain the actual faith that is in the heart of a lone believer in Abba or Baghdad.

Another interesting thought is that we Americans purport Christianity to be the basis of our nation - thereby making American citizens automatically predisposed to being Christian (and better ones, at that). However, I know better Christian communists than capitalists. People whose very life and basis is not cooperative with what is known as the "American way of life" are phenomenal Christians - and in many ways stronger Christians than their Western counterparts.

Just saying - it's in your walk, not your talk. Excellent thoughts, so far.

Seconded all the way and is heavily supported scripturally throughout the new testiment. It should also be mentioned, that if they were to actually read the book of Acts, they might notice that the first true Christan community lived in a way that would be called Socialist today. Take that 'Christian Right'!

[Bottle]

Additionally, I would like to only support the claims made against Western Christianity, as opposed to the Christianity of those in other place where their faith is despised and not pampered. My heart and prayers go out to those people every day. I have a feeling that all of the massive churches, TV shows, and programs American Christians purport don't contain the actual faith that is in the heart of a lone believer in Abba or Baghdad.

This is, I think, a big part of the reason why marginalized groups get so angry at Western Christians when the Christians claim to be "oppressed." It actually isn't really about religion at all, so much as it is about privilege.

It is fucking insulting for somebody who is a member of a marginalized group to hear a non-marginalized person whine about how oppressed they are. When you have experienced real discrimination, bigotry, and even oppression, it really pisses you off to hear some pampered American Christian claim that they're suffering because the guy at Macy's said "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

You know how a lot of gay people have some very nasty things to say about Christianity? Well, a lot of it really isn't about Christianity in the first place...it's about the persecution complex that a lot of Western Christians cultivate. It's about actually having to DEBATE the fact that Christianity has dominated the Western world for centuries. It's about seeing some Christian have the nerve to claim that they are somehow NOT the majority, NOT the ruling power, even in countries where Christianity is the official state religion.

Because when you see someone who is that blind to their own privilege, you know there is pretty much no hope of convincing them to see the discrimination you face. So that's one more person who you know will never be an ally for you, one more person who will never help fight the injustices you face, and just one more person who will spit in your face and then scream about how rude you are for daring to object.

[F1-Insanity]

It should also be mentioned, that if they were to actually read the book of Acts, they might notice that the first true Christan community lived in a way that would be called Socialist today. Take that 'Christian Right'!

So they had a government which taxed those who worked, divided it amongst those who did not work, and had laws that gave preferential treatment to preferred minority groups?

[Milks Empire]

It should also be mentioned, that if they were to actually read the book of Acts, they might notice that the first true Christan community lived in a way that would be called Socialist today. Take that 'Christian Right'!

So they had a government which taxed those who worked, divided it amongst those who did not work, and had laws that gave preferential treatment to preferred minority groups?

Yeah, this proves you know nothing about socialism.

[Sidh Ohn]

It should also be mentioned, that if they were to actually read the book of Acts, they might notice that the first true Christan community lived in a way that would be called Socialist today. Take that 'Christian Right'!

So they had a government which taxed those who worked, divided it amongst those who did not work, and had laws that gave preferential treatment to preferred minority groups?

Actually, I meant Socialism in the economic sense not the political sense which you're using here (Socialism is an economic system, not a political one, and politically they were under Roman law so... ) Basically, the first churches set up was such that any income outside of their immediate needs was considered group property, to be distributed to the christian community and the poor. Likewise, all property was essentially available to the whole of the Christian community as though it were public property. Again, these are relatively modern terms and ideas we're talking about, so they likely wouldn't have viewed it quite that way, but a modern person reading it careful can easilly see the parallels.

[Callisdrun]

I now remember the phrase I was looking for - post-Christian. Britain is pretty much a spiritual battleground now, which also accounts for the rise of paganism.

That sounds ominous. Also I should point out that from a pagan point of view, very few pagan religions consider the battleground paradigm valid. They don't generally consider either recruitment of followers or number of followers to be important or meaningful to the development of their religion, in most cases. That's certainly true for my religion, which is essentially blind to number of followers, provided the cult rituals and worship is maintained. So, let's here no more of this battleground nonsense in regards to pagan religions, because most pagan adherents just not interested.

Indeed. We're not interested in fighting over believers. If one doesn't want to join us, fine, we don't care. Unlike Christianity and to some extent Islam, we don't think everyone in the world should follow our religions.

Perhaps Britain is a spiritual battleground, but if it is, I don't think we'll be doing any of the fighting.

[Them There]

I go with the option of "make your own religion". Everyone who has actually "felt the Presence" has their own understanding of that "Presence". Trying to shoehorn your understanding into an existing framework just kills it. Operate according to your understanding, and you probably won't go wrong.

[Callisdrun]

Not that I can see anyone claims to be oppressed in this thread, but you could easily rewrite that pie chart to be the demographics of 1980 South Africa and it wouldn't mean a damn thing.

Being a South African, I have some knowledge of the area. Yes, it's not all about demographics. It is about access to power. In most western, Christian nations, Christians (or those who identify as such) comprise virtually the entirety of powerful positions. Try becoming President of the USA without openly talking about your devout faith.

This is analogous to South Africa... well, not at all, really.

Indeed. I wonder what he thinks the chances of there being a pagan, atheist, buddhist, hindu, muslim or even jewish president of the USA are, any time soon.

[Callisdrun]

Way to go and ignore, y'know, facts and figures.

The very idea that we somehow have a Christian culture and majority here is totally laughable. Laws set by Christianity? Hahahahaha, now that is truly laughable. Didn't you get the Alistair Campbell memo? We don't do God.

I don't appreciate having words put into my mouth… I'm not Anjem Choudhary, I never claimed "oppression". I certainly don't like modern Britain but it's hardly oppressive - well, not of Christians anyway.

Edit: I've been both a non-Christian and a Christian and in neither case did I decide Britain was a "Christian country". People tend to use that phrase even if they're atheist, to have a go at Muslims.

Being an RPer, and RPing a non-Christian nation, after a while, when I was writing about the fictional nation's culture, it became more and more apparent just how many of our cultural norms, which influence our laws, are based pretty much on Christianity.

[Callisdrun]

The UK, especially England (the existence of a state church notwithstanding - it really doesn't mean shit in the real world)
Scandinavia
The Low Countries, it could be argued

Statistics like "70% of English are Christian" are meaningless as well. I could fly the raven flag and make blóts to Woden, but I'd still be considered Catholic on paper.

Wait... why would you be considered Catholic? I've never seen a Catholic fly the raven flag and make blots to Woden. I would think that would be rather negating to one's Catholicism.

He's trying to claim that all the countless studies that ask people about their own religious orientation don't exist. He's pretending that such studies simply use the Catholic Church's "official lists" to determine who is Catholic, rather than, ya know, ASKING PEOPLE if they're actually Catholic.

Oh right. So nothing having to do with reality then. I see, carry on.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Indeed. I wonder what he thinks the chances of there being a pagan, atheist, buddhist, hindu, muslim or even jewish president of the USA are, any time soon.

To quote Daniel Dennett "Oh we've had lots of atheist presidents. They just haven't admitted it."

[Warkus]

Natas (Spell it backwards)


lol

[Callisdrun]

Indeed. I wonder what he thinks the chances of there being a pagan, atheist, buddhist, hindu, muslim or even jewish president of the USA are, any time soon.

To quote Daniel Dennett "Oh we've had lots of atheist presidents. They just haven't admitted it."

Good point. Insert "openly" before my list, in that case, lol.

[Cross-Rhodes]

Additionally, I would like to only support the claims made against Western Christianity, as opposed to the Christianity of those in other place where their faith is despised and not pampered. My heart and prayers go out to those people every day. I have a feeling that all of the massive churches, TV shows, and programs American Christians purport don't contain the actual faith that is in the heart of a lone believer in Abba or Baghdad.

This is, I think, a big part of the reason why marginalized groups get so angry at Western Christians when the Christians claim to be "oppressed." It actually isn't really about religion at all, so much as it is about privilege.

It is fucking insulting for somebody who is a member of a marginalized group to hear a non-marginalized person whine about how oppressed they are. When you have experienced real discrimination, bigotry, and even oppression, it really pisses you off to hear some pampered American Christian claim that they're suffering because the guy at Macy's said "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

You know how a lot of gay people have some very nasty things to say about Christianity? Well, a lot of it really isn't about Christianity in the first place...it's about the persecution complex that a lot of Western Christians cultivate. It's about actually having to DEBATE the fact that Christianity has dominated the Western world for centuries. It's about seeing some Christian have the nerve to claim that they are somehow NOT the majority, NOT the ruling power, even in countries where Christianity is the official state religion.

Because when you see someone who is that blind to their own privilege, you know there is pretty much no hope of convincing them to see the discrimination you face. So that's one more person who you know will never be an ally for you, one more person who will never help fight the injustices you face, and just one more person who will spit in your face and then scream about how rude you are for daring to object.

You said a mouthful right there, and while we could quibble over smaller, individual points - the overall truth of your statement is obvious and well-founded. The fact that the pilgrims left the "hedonistic" society of Europe to found their own "Christian" nation (which by the way - is in no way similar to the Christianity seen today), is not really debatable. Even secular historians support this, and therefore the dominance of organized Christianity in the Western hemisphere is slightly obvious.

The Christians in this domain take for granted their privilege to be born or living as a Christian in this area. Note that not ALL Christians are this way, and to cut down on wordiness, we are both using a very broad brush with the all-inclusive word, "Christians". They are not being persecuted, and I would speculate that if REAL persecution ever befell them, the Christian faith of the Western hemisphere would lose nearly 75-80% of its claimed members. The real tragedy, here, for Christians is this: anything you take for granted, you will eventually lose. So, they take their rights for granted and generations later (many many generations) they may not be there. It will not, however, be persecution that removes them - they will have handed them away through apathy and hypocrisy.

Just my thoughts.

[Muravyets]

Oh yes, the USA most certainly. That didn't make my little list.

It's very amusing to see Americans telling me I live in a heavily Christian country, though. The religious demographics here are generally those of foreign origin.

That's just BS, sorry. You might be able to squeak through that lame argument you're trying to make about European countries because they have official religions and weird ways of noting them in their census data. But in the US, where there is no official religion and all statistics come from individuals self-reporting about themselves? And you claim that HERE, there aren't as many Christians as it seems and they're not in the positions of privilege and power they seem? Horseshit.

[Batuni]

Write 'em all down on a piece of paper (might take some time, and a large sheet of paper), pin it up on the wall, and throw a dart?

[Milks Empire]

Write 'em all down on a piece of paper (might take some time, and a large sheet of paper), pin it up on the wall, and throw a dart?

You're legit funny!

[Whole Conviction]

That's just BS, sorry. You might be able to squeak through that lame argument you're trying to make about European countries because they have official religions and weird ways of noting them in their census data. But in the US, where there is no official religion and all statistics come from individuals self-reporting about themselves? And you claim that HERE, there aren't as many Christians as it seems and they're not in the positions of privilege and power they seem? Horseshit.

America has a lot of Christians in it... but not, apparently, REAL Christians!

(I'd actually agree. I'm not sure there's been a Real Christian since about 30 AD)

[Free Soviets]

To quote Daniel Dennett "Oh we've had lots of atheist presidents. They just haven't admitted it."

for example, obama only got religion when he went to go work with the black community on the southside. now, that may be a totally honest moment of finding black jesus, but it looks awfully expedient to me.

[Seperates]

To quote Daniel Dennett "Oh we've had lots of atheist presidents. They just haven't admitted it."

for example, obama only got religion when he went to go work with the black community on the southside. now, that may be a totally honest moment of finding black jesus, but it looks awfully expedient to me.

Actually Jesus was Middle Eastern... He wore a towel on his head *nods*

Enter the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Because it was He who drank from the Beer Volcano and His Noodly Appendages that brought forth the Mountains, the Trees, and a Midget. All Sort of worship his Almighty Noodlyness and follow the 8 I'd-Rather-You-Didn'ts. RAmen.