Which God?

[Callisdrun]

NSG is a community which can be very disproportionately vitriolic to Christians, I'd find it hard if I really was a devout Christian to engage with this community for instance.

I've never had an issue. Of course, it helps that NSG is actually a community which is disproportionately vitriolic to Christians who are assholes about it. If you aren't, no-one tends to give a damn apart from a few trolls.

Exactly. I don't think I've ever had an issue with you, or with Smunkee when she was a christian...

Millions of gallons of this.

There are plenty of Christians on NSG who I have interacted with for (literally) years without ever being vitriolic about their beliefs.

It's not the Christianity that's the problem, honestly, it's that some Christians seem to think that being Christian should be like a free pass to act however they want. They think they should be able to act in ways that would be considered rude in any other context, but because they invoke Jesus nobody should get to be upset with them. They think they should be able to say and do things that would get anybody else punched in the face, but as long as they say/do them in the context of being Christian then it's all good.

The Christians I get along with are the ones who view their Christianity as a reason to behave better, not as an excuse to act worse.

Very much so. The asshattery is what's objectionable, not the fact that one is Christian (goes for any religion).

[Callisdrun]

The UK, especially England (the existence of a state church notwithstanding - it really doesn't mean shit in the real world)
Scandinavia
The Low Countries, it could be argued

Statistics like "70% of English are Christian" are meaningless as well. I could fly the raven flag and make blóts to Woden, but I'd still be considered Catholic on paper.

Wait... why would you be considered Catholic? I've never seen a Catholic fly the raven flag and make blots to Woden. I would think that would be rather negating to one's Catholicism.

[Tokos]

So even though Christians hold the majority in every one of those countries that you listed, that doesn't count?

Nominal Christians hold the majority. It's like arguing that Judaism is the dominating force in secular Jewish areas.

Really - it is not as simple as you'd think. Half the population here "believes in God" yet three-quarters "is Christian". Taken on face value, that simply makes no sense whatsoever. Two-thirds of the population here also has no connection with any church or religion.

What, exactly, would be required for it to count in your eyes?

Heightened churchgoing - such as is the norm for communities where the religion really does dominate, like Muslim communities - would be a sign. Of course, it's hard to quantify stuff like this but Christianity has pretty much no impact here. This is something an Australian immigrant I know notes - that it appears Christian, with all the hymn-singing at Christmas and churches everywhere - but isn't.

Now, of course, in Northern Ireland it's different.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1043986.stm
This is a good source as it compares us to the Italians and Americans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/567935.stm
"45% of those questioned believed Jesus was the Son of God, down from 71% in 1957."

Wait... why would you be considered Catholic? I've never seen a Catholic fly the raven flag and make blots to Woden. I would think that would be rather negating to one's Catholicism.

But I'd still be Catholic on paper unless I managed to somehow excommunicate myself.

[Bottle]

So even though Christians hold the majority in every one of those countries that you listed, that doesn't count?

Nominal Christians hold the majority. It's like arguing that Judaism is the dominating force in secular Jewish areas.

Really - it is not as simple as you'd think. Half the population here "believes in God" yet three-quarters "is Christian". Taken on face value, that simply makes no sense whatsoever. Two-thirds of the population here also has no connection with any church or religion.

What, exactly, would be required for it to count in your eyes?

Heightened churchgoing - such as is the norm for communities where the religion really does dominate, like Muslim communities - would be a sign. Of course, it's hard to quantify stuff like this but Christianity has pretty much no impact here. This is something an Australian immigrant I know notes - that it appears Christian, with all the hymn-singing at Christmas and churches everywhere - but isn't.

Now, of course, in Northern Ireland it's different.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1043986.stm
This is a good source as it compares us to the Italians and Americans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/567935.stm
"45% of those questioned believed Jesus was the Son of God, down from 71% in 1957."

Wait... why would you be considered Catholic? I've never seen a Catholic fly the raven flag and make blots to Woden. I would think that would be rather negating to one's Catholicism.

But I'd still be Catholic on paper unless I managed to somehow excommunicate myself.

Yeah, basically this is why I think everyone should stop listening to Christians who complain about being oppressed.

Even when they hold the majority, it's not enough. Even when most people in an area identify as Christian, it's not enough. Even when the majority of elected leaders in their country are Christian, it's not enough. Even when the laws, traditions, and even holidays in their nation are set by Christianity, it's not enough. Even in countries where Christianity is the OFFICIAL STATE RELIGION, it's not Christian enough.

Which leads me to conclude that these people are going to claim it's not enough no matter what, and they're going to claim that they're an oppressed minority no matter what, and it's most likely because Biblical teachings encourage Christians to view themselves as oppressed and marginalized and not because there's actually any real basis for feeling that way.

Or, in other words, when a Western Christian tells you he feels oppressed, you should express congratulations rather than apologies. For Western Christians, getting to feel oppressed is the brass ring!

[Bottle]

The UK, especially England (the existence of a state church notwithstanding - it really doesn't mean shit in the real world)
Scandinavia
The Low Countries, it could be argued

Statistics like "70% of English are Christian" are meaningless as well. I could fly the raven flag and make blóts to Woden, but I'd still be considered Catholic on paper.

Wait... why would you be considered Catholic? I've never seen a Catholic fly the raven flag and make blots to Woden. I would think that would be rather negating to one's Catholicism.

He's trying to claim that all the countless studies that ask people about their own religious orientation don't exist. He's pretending that such studies simply use the Catholic Church's "official lists" to determine who is Catholic, rather than, ya know, ASKING PEOPLE if they're actually Catholic.

[Minrothad]

At a guess... the middle of mosques and synagogues? Inside Buddhist temples?

While Christianity does not have a presence there, it will remain an endangered minority.

And, sadly, this is actually a better answer than the one Tokos gave.

Everyone loves being the underdog. Our natural instinct as westerners is to cheer for the underdog. It just gets a bit ridiculous when the biggest religion in the world starts crying underdog.

Especially when the argument is that it's not actually so big, because most of the members are not REAL Christians. D=

[Bottle]

At a guess... the middle of mosques and synagogues? Inside Buddhist temples?

While Christianity does not have a presence there, it will remain an endangered minority.

And, sadly, this is actually a better answer than the one Tokos gave.

Everyone loves being the underdog. Our natural instinct as westerners is to cheer for the underdog. It just gets a bit ridiculous when the biggest religion in the world starts crying underdog.

Especially when the argument is that it's not actually so big, because most of the members are not REAL Christians. D=

Exactly.

[Tokos]

Way to go and ignore, y'know, facts and figures.

The very idea that we somehow have a Christian culture and majority here is totally laughable. Laws set by Christianity? Hahahahaha, now that is truly laughable. Didn't you get the Alistair Campbell memo? We don't do God.

I don't appreciate having words put into my mouth… I'm not Anjem Choudhary, I never claimed "oppression". I certainly don't like modern Britain but it's hardly oppressive - well, not of Christians anyway.

Edit: I've been both a non-Christian and a Christian and in neither case did I decide Britain was a "Christian country". People tend to use that phrase even if they're atheist, to have a go at Muslims.

[Greed and Death]

Alright believers. Let's say I'm willing to grant the supernatural entity's existence, that I've had a personal revelation that leads me to say, "I have felt the presence". Which religion should I follow?

My religion.

[Gauthier]

Yeah, basically this is why I think everyone should stop listening to Christians who complain about being oppressed.

Even when they hold the majority, it's not enough. Even when most people in an area identify as Christian, it's not enough. Even when the majority of elected leaders in their country are Christian, it's not enough. Even when the laws, traditions, and even holidays in their nation are set by Christianity, it's not enough. Even in countries where Christianity is the OFFICIAL STATE RELIGION, it's not Christian enough.

Which leads me to conclude that these people are going to claim it's not enough no matter what, and they're going to claim that they're an oppressed minority no matter what, and it's most likely because Biblical teachings encourage Christians to view themselves as oppressed and marginalized and not because there's actually any real basis for feeling that way.

Or, in other words, when a Western Christian tells you he feels oppressed, you should express congratulations rather than apologies. For Western Christians, getting to feel oppressed is the brass ring!

Just because it's too much on topic:

[Tokos]

Not that I can see anyone claims to be oppressed in this thread, but you could easily rewrite that pie chart to be the demographics of 1980 South Africa and it wouldn't mean a damn thing.

[Ifreann]

But I'd still be Catholic on paper unless I managed to somehow excommunicate myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae
Catholic canon law provides for a sort of automatic excommunication. Committing certain sins is so evil, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, that if you do so you will instantly be excommunicated, even if nobody else ever knows about it. Apostasy and heresy are among these.

Of course, your name will still be on church lists as having been baptised or what have you.

[Minrothad]

Not that I can see anyone claims to be oppressed in this thread, but you could easily rewrite that pie chart to be the demographics of 1980 South Africa and it wouldn't mean a damn thing.

Being a South African, I have some knowledge of the area. Yes, it's not all about demographics. It is about access to power. In most western, Christian nations, Christians (or those who identify as such) comprise virtually the entirety of powerful positions. Try becoming President of the USA without openly talking about your devout faith.

This is analogous to South Africa... well, not at all, really.

[Tokos]

Oh yes, the USA most certainly. That didn't make my little list.

It's very amusing to see Americans telling me I live in a heavily Christian country, though. The religious demographics here are generally those of foreign origin.

[Cirona]

Yeah, basically this is why I think everyone should stop listening to Christians who complain about being oppressed.

Even when they hold the majority, it's not enough. Even when most people in an area identify as Christian, it's not enough. Even when the majority of elected leaders in their country are Christian, it's not enough. Even when the laws, traditions, and even holidays in their nation are set by Christianity, it's not enough. Even in countries where Christianity is the OFFICIAL STATE RELIGION, it's not Christian enough.

Which leads me to conclude that these people are going to claim it's not enough no matter what, and they're going to claim that they're an oppressed minority no matter what, and it's most likely because Biblical teachings encourage Christians to view themselves as oppressed and marginalized and not because there's actually any real basis for feeling that way.

Or, in other words, when a Western Christian tells you he feels oppressed, you should express congratulations rather than apologies. For Western Christians, getting to feel oppressed is the brass ring!

Just because it's too much on topic:

Back on topic.

What I find really disturbing in the Bible is that its unwillingness to accept other religions. Wait, all religions are nearly like that. Still, why should Buddhist go to hell?
Therefore, the best religion to subscribe to is either Family-Guyism or Foodism.

And of course, Pornism. Oh yeah...

[Tokos]

Well done for perpetuating the stereotype of the shallow, immature atheist. I'll follow Napoleon's maxim here and not interfere.

[Bottle]

Well done for perpetuating the stereotype of the shallow, immature atheist. I'll follow Napoleon's maxim here and not interfere.

I don't think there's any particular stereotype about atheists being "shallow" or "immature", given that there's just as much of a stereotype about religious people being mindless and childish...it doesn't really make sense to claim that immaturity is the hallmark of the atheist, when immaturity is just as often considered to be a hallmark of theism.

[Tokos]

when immaturity is just as often considered to be a hallmark of theism.

This is indeed often claimed, but often in the context of "you believe in sky fairies ha ha ha" which sort of makes the point fall flat on its face.

[Cirona]

Well done for perpetuating the stereotype of the shallow, immature atheist.

While I cannot deny the fact that I am immature, I believe this is not because I am an atheist - Infact, I'm not even an atheist.
However, I believe that atheists are mature enough in the way they believe in reality instead of (Disclaimer: No offence intended for the next three words) some "saviour" bullshit. Just my humble opinion...

[Gift-of-god]

Oh yes, the USA most certainly. That didn't make my little list.

It's very amusing to see Americans telling me I live in a heavily Christian country, though. The religious demographics here are generally those of foreign origin.

How many people in the different houses of parliament are non-Christians?

[Bottle]

when immaturity is just as often considered to be a hallmark of theism.

This is indeed often claimed, but often in the context of "you believe in sky fairies ha ha ha" which sort of makes the point fall flat on its face.

How so?

I mean, "you believe in Santa ha ha ha" would be considered pretty legit. Given that most atheists view your God as equivalent to Santa, the only way your statement makes sense is if you ignore the atheist perspective in favor of embracing yours. And expecting everyone to share your perspective is one of the most immature positions anybody can take.

[Bottle]

Oh yes, the USA most certainly. That didn't make my little list.

It's very amusing to see Americans telling me I live in a heavily Christian country, though. The religious demographics here are generally those of foreign origin.

How many people in the different houses of parliament are non-Christians?

He's going to argue that the ones who identify as Christian aren't REALLY Christian, which is why the Christian majorities don't count and clearly the government is not dominated by Christians.

[Tokos]

"You believe in sky fairies" is on a par with "You think frogs somehow turned into people".

[Kobrania]

The house of lords is full of bishops.

[Coffin-Breathe]

"You believe in sky fairies" is on a par with "You think frogs somehow turned into people".

Incorrect statement, as relying on H. P. Lovecraft some people definitely turn into frogs of some kind...
...and, if you believe in sky fairies of some kind, what´s wrong with believing in froggish princes then ?