Which God?

[Dumb Ideologies]

If God makes his presence known to you somehow but doesn't tell you which religion to take up I suppose you can only come to one of a few conclusions.

either
a) God doesn't really care which religion you choose so long as you believe, making the holy texts of most world religions wrong.
b) He's not too pleasant, and will really send you to hell if you get it wrong, even though you can't know for sure which religion is right, since he didn't tell you.
c) Your religious encounter wasn't real, and you're quite quite mad.

Neither of these are particularly strengthening to religious faith, but I personally think that if there is a God a) is likely to be nearer the truth, and that different groups have claimed that only their religion is okay for reasons of earthly power rather than spirituality.

I'm an agnostic, so this question doesn't apply to me, strictly, but that's how I'd approach it if I did.

[Callisdrun]

I have posed this very question several times over the years, and been quite sincere about it. I've sat down with believers and told them that if they can honestly explain to me why I should worship their God then I'll give it all the fair consideration I can.

I've yet to be given any convincing reason to believe in any God. The best most people can come up with is something about the afterlife, but I don't particularly want an afterlife so that's not really a good bargaining chip with me. They sometimes try to threaten me with Hell or something, but that tends to backfire because I'm not willing to worship a being who would torture otherwise-innocent people for all eternity simply because they didn't worship correctly.

I've never liked religions that beat people over the head with threats of a bad afterlife. It was actually what drove me away from Christianity, not the implausibility of that particular god existing. I didn't find him worthy of worship. To me, a being that would punish us for not guessing correctly on something with so little to go on, is an *******, not somebody to idolize.

However, I became a pagan, not an atheist. I'm a spiritual person, and it's a lot more fun and meaningful to me. I can't blame others for not believing the same as I do, though. What people actually DO is more important, to me, than what they believe. Besides, it would be boring if everyone thought the same thing as I do.

Just to clarify, God warned us that those things are wrong, so if someone goes to Hell for it, it's their own fault for not listening! It's like a parent telling a child not to play in traffic. Would you stop respecting your parents for telling you not to play in traffic? Besides, parents punish us for doing bad things too, would you hate them for that? And "not worthy of your worship"? Not trying to be mean, but who do you think you are? What are, the creator of God? Only a self-centered jerk that's world revolves around them would say that. Sorry to say, but you have no humility whatsoever. Even if God was "worthy" of your praise, I don't think he would want it coming from such a vain person. You are talking about the God that created the universe, and your saying that becasue he punishes people he isn't worthy of praise? Okay, I guess all those murderers and rapists should go to heavan! Oh, and lets send Hitler there too, and while we're at it, lets send that guy from Cambodia there too! Yeah, really brilliant ideas. If anyone thinks I was trying to be an offensive jerk, don't even bother replying to this. Come on people, lets think for a minute that there is beyond all doubt a God, scientifically proven and all, do you see how narcistic what what he said is? I don't care what God he could have said that about, that's just plain egotistic.

If god is omnipotent, he can save everyone, and show everyone the light or whatever. I don't worship that asshole of a god that condemns people to eternal torture for not kissing his ass enough, who has arbitrary and pointless rules to follow to avoid torture, the breaking of which is intrinsic to some of his own supposed creation. And no, it's not punishing people at all that makes him unworthy of praise. You completely fail at reading comprehension. Punishing otherwise perfectly good people for not worshiping him makes him unworthy of praise.

Am I a self centered jerk? Maybe. But so is that cuntbag Yahweh. I'm not the one that supposedly sentences people to eternal torture for not bowing to me enough, or for sleeping with the wrong person or using birth control. He's not my god.

My gods don't require you to worship them. It's a nice thing to do, I like to make it clear that they're appreciated, but I don't believe I'd be punished for not doing so. There are much more important things, like how one treats other people, and nature. And also, my gods don't care about who one sleeps with or if a woman has an abortion.

And they have exactly the same chance of existing that the Christian god does.


I think it is foolish to equate lack of worship with Stalin and Hitler. They were evil because of the things they did to other people, not because of having a lack of faith in the Christian deity.

[Callisdrun]

Just to clarify, God warned us that those things are wrong, so if someone goes to Hell for it, it's their own fault for not listening! It's like a parent telling a child not to play in traffic.

Sure, if the parents 1) created the traffic, 2) directed the traffic directly through the child's favorite playground, 3) spoke so softly that you wouldn't be able to hear unless you listened very, very closely, and 4) only spoke to one of their children and expected the others to get the message somehow anyway.

Would you stop respecting your parents for telling you not to play in traffic? Besides, parents punish us for doing bad things too, would you hate them for that?

If my parents grounded me FOR ALL ETERNITY for something? Hell yes I'd hate them, because that would be completely out of proportion with anything I could possibly do in this mortal lifetime.

And "not worthy of your worship"? Not trying to be mean, but who do you think you are? What are, the creator of God?

I have as much reason to believe that I created God as I have to believe anything else.

Only a self-centered jerk that's world revolves around them would say that. Sorry to say, but you have no humility whatsoever.

Says the guy who is presuming to lecture all of us on the nature of God.

I love this perspective.

"A person who says that they do not know whether or not God exists and therefore will refrain from claiming to have knowledge of God is CLEARLY less humble than somebody who claims to know the nature of God despite having no evidence whatsoever and who expects everyone to believe them while simultaneously offering absolutely nothing whatsoever to support their claims."

Even if God was "worthy" of your praise, I don't think he would want it coming from such a vain person. You are talking about the God that created the universe, and your saying that becasue he punishes people he isn't worthy of praise? Okay, I guess all those murderers and rapists should go to heavan!

According to Christian theology, rapists and murderers have a better shot at heaven than I do. A rapist or murderer can repent and "find God" on their deathbed and hey-presto, they get eternal bliss. Me, I can live my whole life as a moral person, helping to cure disease and make the world a safer place, being kind or generous or helpful to my fellow humans, and none of it will matter because I don't bow before the correct idol...I'm sorry, IMAGE...of the Christian God.

Oh, and lets send Hitler there too, and while we're at it, lets send that guy from Cambodia there too! Yeah, really brilliant ideas. If anyone thinks I was trying to be an offensive jerk, don't even bother replying to this.

I don't think you were trying to be an offensive jerk, I think it's just a byproduct of your self-centered, ignorant, and yes, extremely arrogant world-view.

Come on people, lets think for a minute that there is beyond all doubt a God, scientifically proven and all, do you see how narcistic what what he said is? I don't care what God he could have said that about, that's just plain egotistic.

If your God were proven, beyond any doubt, to exist, I still wouldn't worship it. I would regard it as a dangerous and evil force, and I would spend my life trying to find a way to escape it and help others escape it. I would do so knowing that I would fail, and that I would be punished for it, but burning in a lake of fire is still less of a torment than being trapped for eternity with your celestial dead-beat dad.

*wuvs*

Like I said, I stopped worshiping the Abrahamic god because I found said being not to be worthy of praise, not because I found his existence implausible. And if those who say I'll burn in hell for worshiping gods who I like better are right, eternal torture will be better than bowing before such an evil being.

[Abdju]

I would like to invite readers of this post to Islam.

This reader respectfully declines. I spent many years of my life trying hard to tow the line within (Sunni) Islam. I just cannot honestly follow that religion, for in my heart I cannot accept it's doctrine.

[Bottle]

99%, really? What did you do - take a phone survey? Everyone's asking for evidence, so I'll ask for evidence of that stat...lol...99%...

Actually, 99% is probably an underestimation. When you consider the number of people in the world who don't even have access to clean drinking water, and therefore probably have other things to worry about before they start meditating on the philosophical nature of the divine, you really start to get a feel for this.

See, I'm one of the fortunate few. I grew up with ample resources and access to a level of education that isn't accessible to most people in the world. This isn't because I'm so rich or awesome...it's because the world is just that unequal. Last estimate I read had at least 30% of the people on this planet being completely illiterate, after all.

I've also spent more years in study than all but a tiny fraction of the people in the world. Even most people who have access to the same kind of education as myself will typically not choose to stay in school for nearly 3 decades.

The simple fact is that I have the luxury of time to contemplate such issues, because of a combination of the luck of my birth and the path in life I have chosen.

I am ashamed, as I'm sure God is, of the horrific acts and the millions of people injured or slain in His Name. That is not the God I serve.

See, this is where you need to provide some kind of support.

What evidence do you have to support the notion that YOUR god is the real one, rather than a God who likes seeing millions of people injured or slain in his name?

[Uawc]

I would like to invite readers of this post to Islam.

This reader respectfully declines. I spent many years of my life trying hard to tow the line within (Sunni) Islam. I just cannot honestly follow that religion, for in my heart I cannot accept it's doctrine.

You're telling me the five pillars are that hard to folow?

What about it is so hard to accept?


Also, it's stupid for Muslims to say that they're Sunni or Shi'a or whatever, because it undermines the unity of Islam as a whole.

[Cross-Rhodes]

99%, really? What did you do - take a phone survey? Everyone's asking for evidence, so I'll ask for evidence of that stat...lol...99%...

Actually, 99% is probably an underestimation. When you consider the number of people in the world who don't even have access to clean drinking water, and therefore probably have other things to worry about before they start meditating on the philosophical nature of the divine, you really start to get a feel for this.

See, I'm one of the fortunate few. I grew up with ample resources and access to a level of education that isn't accessible to most people in the world. This isn't because I'm so rich or awesome...it's because the world is just that unequal. Last estimate I read had at least 30% of the people on this planet being completely illiterate, after all.

I've also spent more years in study than all but a tiny fraction of the people in the world. Even most people who have access to the same kind of education as myself will typically not choose to stay in school for nearly 3 decades.

The simple fact is that I have the luxury of time to contemplate such issues, because of a combination of the luck of my birth and the path in life I have chosen.

That is not evidence...that is your best estimate, and perhaps in complete sincerity you believe through faith that your statement is true.

I am ashamed, as I'm sure God is, of the horrific acts and the millions of people injured or slain in His Name. That is not the God I serve.

See, this is where you need to provide some kind of support.

What evidence do you have to support the notion that YOUR god is the real one, rather than a God who likes seeing millions of people injured or slain in his name?

What evidence do you have to support that He is the One who likes seeing people injured or slain in His Name? If you would say that your only proof is the men who perform such terrible acts while claiming His Name, then I would say that you owe me the same amount of credit for NOT doing these things. Unless, of course, you have some bias against Christians who actually follow the teachings of Christ; which is not uncommon.

On the other hand, I believe through faith that He is not that god. I believe that much more intensely than you do of your own varied studies and the degrees with which they have been applied. Of course, you will ask for evidence of this statement as any good person in debate would. This carousel could go round and round, but the fact is: it comes down to faith. Not what I believe - what you believe.

Now, I can deal with that, can you?

[Gift-of-god]

...
What evidence do you have to support that He is the One who likes seeing people injured or slain in His Name? If you would say that your only proof is the men who perform such terrible acts while claiming His Name, then I would say that you owe me the same amount of credit for NOT doing these things. Unless, of course, you have some bias against Christians who actually follow the teachings of Christ; which is not uncommon.

On the other hand, I believe through faith that He is not that god. I believe that much more intensely than you do of your own varied studies and the degrees with which they have been applied. Of course, you will ask for evidence of this statement as any good person in debate would. This carousel could go round and round, but the fact is: it comes down to faith. Not what I believe - what you believe.

Now, I can deal with that, can you?

We can safely say, with a certain amount of confidence, that god does not seem to care if atrocities are committed in his or her name.

This can be surmised by the fact that atrocities are committted in god's name with no apparent punishment from supernatural deities.

[Esternarx]

Hail Eris. All Hail Discordia. Hail, she what done it all. -----><-----

[Cross-Rhodes]

[We can safely say, with a certain amount of confidence, that god does not seem to care if atrocities are committed in his or her name.

This can be surmised by the fact that atrocities are committted in god's name with no apparent punishment from supernatural deities.

Except for the continual decay of society, new diseases, and rampant discord - I'd agree with you. What do you expect? God to come down and spank the person? Maybe zap him with some lightning?

I'd say being trapped in human form and having to deal with the ravages of time and society is pretty painful, not to mention the reward or lack thereof in the afterlife.

Punishment may not always come when we think it should, either. To a God Who has no beginning and ending, time is irrelevant, therefore He may act whenever He so chooses.

[F1-Insanity]

I would like to invite readers of this post to Islam.

NoI don't do crazy superstitions. Thanks for asking.

Do you have a faith, my friend?

He's one of the Brown Scare atheists Gauthier talks about.

I see...so he knows that I AM AN EBIL MOZLEM AND AM GOING TO BLOW THE WORLD UP BECAUSE I HATE HIS FREEDOMS?

Now that's not very nice

Say, what is your position on people who rob trade caravans?

[Abdju]

You're telling me the five pillars are that hard to folow?

What about it is so hard to accept?

1. Lâ ilâha illallâh, Muḥammadun rasûlullâh. I don't believe it, and I don't accept it as doctrine. I believe there are many gods. Whilst Muhammed may indeed have been a prophet of the Abrahamic god, I do not hold that god to be the only one. Thus, I cannot accept the first pillar.

2.Salat. I have no problem with people worshipping the abrhamic god, but he is not one of my gods, and I do not worship him, nor have any inclination to worship him, to accept Abrahamic theology or partake in it's religious practices. To do so would be hypocritical, especially as the prayers uttered in salat would be lies, as I said above.

3. Zakat. Actually, my only disagreement with this is the theology behind it. I don't follow the teachings of the Qu'ran or Hadeeth, as I don't accept their underlying concepts of monotheism and absolute, literal Truth. That said, some of it's teachings, regardless of the theological reasoning, are indeed commendable, and Zakat is one of them.

4. Puasa. As above, I don't accept the theological basis for the teaching, but the teaching itself I also consider distasteful. Life is a beautiful and wonderful thing. It should be spent doing things that are meaningful, but also things that bring satisfaction and happiness. Puasa does nothing other than make people irritable and aggressive, as well as serve to mark out those less "righteous" from the "holier-than-thous"

5. Hajj. Again for me it would be nothing less than hypocrisy. The site means nothing positive to me because the Islamic theological basis means nothing to me. However I d consider the usurpation of a site sacred to another religion to be ethically wrong and deeply insulting. The Ka'ba was sacred to ancient Arabian religion. It was seized by force, desecrated and looted, before having it's history re-written in a manner that would make Orwell proud. I have no wish to be associated with such an act.

Also, it's stupid for Muslims to say that they're Sunni or Shi'a or whatever, because it undermines the unity of Islam as a whole.

Since I am no longer a Muslim, it doesn't really matter. My position has no effect on the "unity" of Islam, though such a concept is no more true beyond the most basic level of the faith than it is for any of the Abrahamic religions.

[Uawc]

I would like to invite readers of this post to Islam.

NoI don't do crazy superstitions. Thanks for asking.

Do you have a faith, my friend?

He's one of the Brown Scare atheists Gauthier talks about.

I see...so he knows that I AM AN EBIL MOZLEM AND AM GOING TO BLOW THE WORLD UP BECAUSE I HATE HIS FREEDOMS?

Now that's not very nice

Say, what is your position on people who rob trade caravans?

They're criminals, obviously. I don't care what religion you are, if you rob someone, you're a criminal.

[Turanbirligi]

Jehova, Tengri

[Uawc]

1. Lâ ilâha illallâh, Muḥammadun rasûlullâh. I don't believe it, and I don't accept it as doctrine. I believe there are many gods. Whilst Muhammed may indeed have been a prophet of the Abrahamic god, I do not hold that god to be the only one. Thus, I cannot accept the first pillar.

Do you have some sort of logical basis for this...?

2.Salat. I have no problem with people worshipping the abrhamic god, but he is not one of my gods, and I do not worship him, nor have any inclination to worship him, to accept Abrahamic theology or partake in it's religious practices. To do so would be hypocritical, especially as the prayers uttered in salat would be lies, as I said above.

Even if you know that He created you? What do you have to say about the Qur'an?

3. Zakat. Actually, my only disagreement with this is the theology behind it. I don't follow the teachings of the Qu'ran or Hadeeth, as I don't accept their underlying concepts of monotheism and absolute, literal Truth. That said, some of it's teachings, regardless of the theological reasoning, are indeed commendable, and Zakat is one of them.

Fair enough.

4. Puasa. As above, I don't accept the theological basis for the teaching, but the teaching itself I also consider distasteful. Life is a beautiful and wonderful thing. It should be spent doing things that are meaningful, but also things that bring satisfaction and happiness. Puasa does nothing other than make people irritable and aggressive, as well as serve to mark out those less "righteous" from the "holier-than-thous"

By "puasa", you mean fasting? I disagree. It has been scientifically proven to have health benefits, such as detoxification. Additionally, it can help you eat less, which is important in this day and age.

5. Hajj. Again for me it would be nothing less than hypocrisy. The site means nothing positive to me because the Islamic theological basis means nothing to me. However I d consider the usurpation of a site sacred to another religion to be ethically wrong and deeply insulting. The Ka'ba was sacred to ancient Arabian religion. It was seized by force, desecrated and looted, before having it's history re-written in a manner that would make Orwell proud. I have no wish to be associated with such an act.

You haven't read the Qur'an, have you...?

[Gift-of-god]

[We can safely say, with a certain amount of confidence, that god does not seem to care if atrocities are committed in his or her name.

This can be surmised by the fact that atrocities are committted in god's name with no apparent punishment from supernatural deities.

Except for the continual decay of society, new diseases, and rampant discord - I'd agree with you. What do you expect? God to come down and spank the person? Maybe zap him with some lightning?

I'd say being trapped in human form and having to deal with the ravages of time and society is pretty painful, not to mention the reward or lack thereof in the afterlife.

Punishment may not always come when we think it should, either. To a God Who has no beginning and ending, time is irrelevant, therefore He may act whenever He so chooses.

I included the word apparent for a reason.

None of these so called punishments are at all obvious. You may opine that society has been in a constant state of decay, but I would argue that we have far more human rights, hygiene, opportunites and knowledge that ever before. If god actually wanted us to stop committing atrocities in his name, he could spell it out clearly for us.

So, why the silence?

[Turanbirligi]

you are right. there is also Tengri

[The Blaatschapen]

Alright believers. Let's say I'm willing to grant the supernatural entity's existence, that I've had a personal revelation that leads me to say, "I have felt the presence". Which religion should I follow?

You should follow me.

Except for when I go to the bathroom, that's just creepy.

[Omnicracy]

Alright believers. Let's say I'm willing to grant the supernatural entity's existence, that I've had a personal revelation that leads me to say, "I have felt the presence". Which religion should I follow?

You should follow me.

Except for when I go to the bathroom, that's just creepy.

But what if there are heathen assasins in the bathroom!

[Cross-Rhodes]

I included the word apparent for a reason.

None of these so called punishments are at all obvious. You may opine that society has been in a constant state of decay, but I would argue that we have far more human rights, hygiene, opportunites and knowledge that ever before. If god actually wanted us to stop committing atrocities in his name, he could spell it out clearly for us.

So, why the silence?

Yeah, I caught the word. Perhaps it's not that He is silent, but that we are too noisy. The bigger you are, the smaller God gets - metaphorically speaking.

Just a thought. As a disclaimer, I have never claimed (and no one honestly could claim) to have all the answers to questions which pertain to the nature of God. Had I or anyone else, complete knowledge of the mind of God - we would be deities, and not He.

[Big Jim P]

Wontu-Mini, the twelve handed gopher God of mischief. Most often seen while kneeling before a porcelain altar after have drank one too many.

[Abdju]

1. Lâ ilâha illallâh, Muḥammadun rasûlullâh. I don't believe it, and I don't accept it as doctrine. I believe there are many gods. Whilst Muhammed may indeed have been a prophet of the Abrahamic god, I do not hold that god to be the only one. Thus, I cannot accept the first pillar.

Do you have some sort of logical basis for this...?

I wouldn't use the term logic to describe any religious belief. No religion is "logical" by the scientific definition, even though each belief system has it's own internal logic. Egyptian religion has it's own theological schools and it's internal logical system and cosmic view, just as Islam does. Having studied both, I do not subscribe the fundamental assumptions that Islam does, but I do subscribe to those of the Helipolitan tradition within Egyptian religion, including those of the Royal cult.

2.Salat. I have no problem with people worshipping the abrhamic god, but he is not one of my gods, and I do not worship him, nor have any inclination to worship him, to accept Abrahamic theology or partake in it's religious practices. To do so would be hypocritical, especially as the prayers uttered in salat would be lies, as I said above.

Even if you know that He created you? What do you have to say about the Qur'an?

But I don't believe ("know") he created me. Allow me to put it this way:
Why do you not worship Ra, even though you know He created all existence?
You can't seriously consider the question, because you don't subscribe to that worldview. Same for me.

As for the Qu'ran, I consider it a theological text of religion I don't follow. That's it. To me, it's no different to the Vedas, Bible, Sagas or any other theological texts belonging to religions other than my own.

Fair enough

I don't think anyone could find fault with charity, except the Objectivists

4. Puasa. As above, I don't accept the theological basis for the teaching, but the teaching itself I also consider distasteful. Life is a beautiful and wonderful thing. It should be spent doing things that are meaningful, but also things that bring satisfaction and happiness. Puasa does nothing other than make people irritable and aggressive, as well as serve to mark out those less "righteous" from the "holier-than-thous"

By "puasa", you mean fasting? I disagree. It has been scientifically proven to have health benefits, such as detoxification. Additionally, it can help you eat less, which is important in this day and age.

Many Muslims fast who really shouldn't because they fear punishment in the afterlife. Relying on religious dictats for health advice is no better than Christians following Papal "advice" on family planning. There may be inadvertent benefits for some (but by no means all) people following puasa, but the fact it is routed in a literalist doctrine of absolute truth that by it's very nature cannot reflect individual approaches to it's teachings, and a monotheistic view of black and white judgement makes it incompatible with my beliefs and the most fundamental level.

You haven't read the Qur'an, have you...?

Yes I have, both formally and informally.

[Turanbirligi]

the unity in islam is a nonsense. one arab or iranian or kurd will never be my brother!

[Abdju]

the unity in islam is a nonsense. one arab or iranian or kurd will never be my brother!

The concept of a Ummah has always been more wishful thinking than reality, but then the same is true of most religions.

[Turanbirligi]

the unity in islam is a nonsense. one arab or iranian or kurd will never be my brother!

The concept of a Ummah has always been more wishful thinking than reality, but then the same is true of most religions.

the ümmet is a nonsense. you see that the hilafet stopped existing! A FRIEND OF A TURK CAN BE ONLY ANOTHER TURK-NOT ARAB, KURD, IRANIAN....