Does True Feminism Exist Anymore?

[Dakini]

Ah, is this the part where you tell me that the n-word is equivalent to cracker because clearly all slurs are equal and have equal power because we live in a fantasy world where perfect equality has been achieved?

I don't even know what cracker means. But yes, all slurs are equal. They are just words used to insult people that only have power to do so if you feel insulted by it. Sticks and stones and all that. Or if you want to be less politically correct "suck it up". You did earn the equal right to be told to do so after all.

Ah, yes. So you are living in a fantasy world. How wonderful for you, I'll go sit here in reality now and leave you be.

[Purpelia]

I don't even know what cracker means. But yes, all slurs are equal. They are just words used to insult people that only have power to do so if you feel insulted by it. Sticks and stones and all that. Or if you want to be less politically correct "suck it up". You did earn the equal right to be told to do so after all.

Ah, yes. So you are living in a fantasy world. How wonderful for you, I'll go sit here in reality now and leave you be.

Since you don't seem like the type to converse politely I'll just boil this down to a simple multiple choice question. No need to answer in long texts for I shall not read them. Just post a single letter designating your choice.

If you behaved like you are now in public in a face to face conversation with a man. And than man decided to spit in your face, call you a jerk and tell you to *censored* and turned around to leave. The cause of that would be:
a) You being a rude jerk
b) Patriarchy

Elaborations not required and shall not be considered.

[Dakini]

Ah, yes. So you are living in a fantasy world. How wonderful for you, I'll go sit here in reality now and leave you be.

Since you don't seem like the type to converse politely I'll just boil this down to a simple multiple choice question. No need to answer in long texts for I shall not read them. Just post a single letter designating your choice.

If you behaved like you are now in public in a face to face conversation with a man. And than man decided to spit in your face, call you a jerk and tell you to *censored* and turned around to leave. The cause of that would be:
a) You being a rude jerk
b) Patriarchy

Elaborations not required and shall not be considered.

Yes! Attack that strawman!

[Anubas]

feminism exists and people who claim most or all feminists are misandrist bastards need to spend less time on tumblr. quotas have good intentions. however, there has to be better ways to get more women and minorities into different career fields.

Can we get a "for instance"? Not that I'm advocating for quotas or anything, but I'd like to see what you've got in mind.

i haven't really thought much about it, but what comes first to mind is destroying gender roles. gender roles suggest that some careers are for men and others for women. destroying them could help get people of other genders in different fields, and even if not, destroying gender roles would still be for the best. the problem with this is that I'm not sure how (if it's even possible) to rid our society of gender roles.

encouraging minorities and women to get interested in x field would be good too. though again, these are very broad plans that I haven't thought much about.

[Purpelia]

Yes! Attack that strawman!

Actually I was trying to outright point out how outright rude and condescending you were behaving and underline the fact that in a real life conversation face to face with someone who behaves like you I would quite literally tell you to *censored* and walk away. And was doing so on the vague hope that you would realize it without me having to be blunt about it.

[Ostroeuropa]

No other demographic has to put up with people waltzing up and declaring themselves to be a nazi at them on a nearly constant basis.
Just white males. Then they are stuck wondering if this is the type of nazi who wants to have them killed, thinks ridiculous laws discriminating against them are a good idea, or are just the deluded people who think nazi means "I support the fatherland."

Oh, you think the latter are the real nazis?
Well fuck then. I guess it's not their political efforts we'll judge them by, it's the apathetic people who just like a nice sounding thing to say. Oh no, the organized efforts? Those guys aren't real nazis. They completely ruined the fatherland after all.

[Orham]

Sweden and Canada off the top of my head. Both allow for a year off split between the parents, in Canada the parents can choose who takes which time and in Sweden (iirc) the parents each get 6 months off.

In Canada this typically means that men opt to let their wives take most or all of the time off (though I personally know of a few cases where the new father took almost all the time off and the new mother went back to work as soon as she was recovered). In Sweden, men typically end up just working from home during their parental leave.

Are you in favor of quotas, then? Or did you have an alternative to both?

You didn't. I was responding to someone completely different than you. It's right there in the quote tag.

Considering Ostro had just finished exploding at me for asking whether it is reasonable to account for women's biologically normal tendency to carry a higher fat % at comparable BMIs in the armed services' physical readiness standards provided performance standards are met, and I was therefore very likely numbered among those "petulant brats" at the time, the quote tag indicating you had responded to Ostro instead of me is meaningless.

Regardless, since you apparently didn't know that I was being numbered among those "petulant brats", you're off the hook.

[Dakini]

Yes! Attack that strawman!

Actually I was trying to outright point out how outright rude and condescending you were behaving and underline the fact that in a real life conversation face to face with someone who behaves like you I would quite literally tell you to *censored* and walk away. And was doing so on the vague hope that you would realize it without me having to be blunt about it.

Well, you've already pointed out that you live in some sort of fantasy world so it's unlikely that you'd ever interact with someone who lives in reality like me. It's a miracle that you've stumbled onto a message board hosted here in reality though.

[Paixao]

These "feminists" who want more rights than men are an extreme minority. They are not nearly as widespread or influential as people like you make them out to be.

But they are very vocal, which tends to skew many people's perception.

I do think Feminism needs to be encouraged to tackle both genders sides of some of the issues it's addressing these days (domestic violence and rape, for instance), to ensure it really is a truly equal movement - and one that addresses the issue at hand, rather than just pointing out that the majority of perpetrators are male and the majority of victims are female. If feminists intend to get rid of domestic violence, they should help victims and hinder perpetrators regardless of gender.

[Ostroeuropa]

Actually I was trying to outright point out how outright rude and condescending you were behaving and underline the fact that in a real life conversation face to face with someone who behaves like you I would quite literally tell you to *censored* and walk away. And was doing so on the vague hope that you would realize it without me having to be blunt about it.

Well, you've already pointed out that you live in some sort of fantasy world so it's unlikely that you'd ever interact with someone who lives in reality like me. It's a miracle that you've stumbled onto a message board hosted here in reality though.

That's right. Despite the fact that only feminists agree with you, and they are a minority group, keep thinking everyone else is part of this huge conspiracy theory of jews to run the world.
Sorry. males.

[Purpelia]

No other demographic has to put up with people waltzing up and declaring themselves to be a nazi at them on a nearly constant basis.

Yes we do. Men have to constantly contend to people making claims that we are all rapists, criminals or just complete idiots who can't control our self when it comes to females and sex. Just look at the thread about women in the army. Every few pages we see one of these:

Nepal I have read a lot of your posts and it seems like you like to ignore something we call Biology which is kind of hard coded into us humans and can be observed in behavior. A man without training IS stronger than a woman without training, this doesn't however mean that the woman can't start working out and become more fit than the man. If a man has instincts to protect a body with tits, then he will feel the need to do that.

And that's a nice one. I have seen far worse cases of men being objectivity as rapists and perverts for no good reason.

The difference between me and you is that we just know that being a grownup is about sucking these things up and moving on. Because life won't do you any favors regardless of your gender, sexual orientation or the color of your skin. Life sucks. Get over it or get run over by it.

Just white males. Then they are stuck wondering if this is the type of nazi who wants to have them killed, thinks ridiculous laws discriminating against them are a good idea, or are just the deluded people who think nazi means "I support the fatherland."

Oh, you think the latter are the real nazis?
Well fuck then. I guess it's not their political efforts we'll judge them by, it's the apathetic people who just like a nice sounding thing to say.

I am not even sure where that comes from. But tell you what. Once you start making sense I'll start trying to provide a better reply. It can be a team effort.

[Ostroeuropa]

No other demographic has to put up with people waltzing up and declaring themselves to be a nazi at them on a nearly constant basis.

Yes we do. Men have to constantly contend to people making claims that we are all rapists, criminals or just complete idiots who can't control our self when it comes to females and sex. Just look at the thread about women in the army. Every few pages we see one of these:

Nepal I have read a lot of your posts and it seems like you like to ignore something we call Biology which is kind of hard coded into us humans and can be observed in behavior. A man without training IS stronger than a woman without training, this doesn't however mean that the woman can't start working out and become more fit than the man. If a man has instincts to protect a body with tits, then he will feel the need to do that.

We just know that being a grownup is about sucking these things up and moving on. Because life won't do you any favors regardless of your gender, sexual orientation or the color of your skin.

Just white males. Then they are stuck wondering if this is the type of nazi who wants to have them killed, thinks ridiculous laws discriminating against them are a good idea, or are just the deluded people who think nazi means "I support the fatherland."

Oh, you think the latter are the real nazis?
Well fuck then. I guess it's not their political efforts we'll judge them by, it's the apathetic people who just like a nice sounding thing to say.

I am not even sure where that comes from. But tell you what. Once you start making sense I'll start trying to provide a better reply. It can be a team effort.

I was talking about men as the demographic that has to put up with the nazis (feminists, who think the jews males are out to ruin everything and run the world, and this makes discrimination against them ok because it's not REAL discrimination.)
I am talking about the people who identify as feminist despite not being female chauvinists and comparing them to the vast bulk of the nazi supporters who just liked the bits about national pride and the fatherland, and either ignored or didn't care about the details.

[Dakini]

Sweden and Canada off the top of my head. Both allow for a year off split between the parents, in Canada the parents can choose who takes which time and in Sweden (iirc) the parents each get 6 months off.

In Canada this typically means that men opt to let their wives take most or all of the time off (though I personally know of a few cases where the new father took almost all the time off and the new mother went back to work as soon as she was recovered). In Sweden, men typically end up just working from home during their parental leave.

Are you in favor of quotas, then? Or did you have an alternative to both?

I would advocate for building a world where employers do not discriminate on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc when it comes to decisions in hiring or promotion. In the meantime, quotas are better than nothing.

[Ostroeuropa]

Are you in favor of quotas, then? Or did you have an alternative to both?

I would advocate for building a world where employers do not discriminate on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc when it comes to decisions in hiring or promotion. In the meantime, quotas are better than nothing.

Why is it better than nothing to discriminate against males?
Don't you know Jews are overrepresented in media and business? We need anti-jewish quotas. I find it completely ridiculous that you people didn't learn the last time these arguments kept being forwarded.

[Dakini]

Well, you've already pointed out that you live in some sort of fantasy world so it's unlikely that you'd ever interact with someone who lives in reality like me. It's a miracle that you've stumbled onto a message board hosted here in reality though.

That's right. Despite the fact that only feminists agree with you, and they are a minority group, keep thinking everyone else is part of this huge conspiracy theory of jews to run the world.
Sorry. males.

Come back when you can read the conversation you're responding to.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's right. Despite the fact that only feminists agree with you, and they are a minority group, keep thinking everyone else is part of this huge conspiracy theory of jews to run the world.
Sorry. males.

Come back when you can read the conversation you're responding to.

You're arguing that calling a Jew a Kike is just fine, because lots of Jews runs banks, and that makes it entirely different to calling a German a Kraut, which is racism.
You're basically arguing the usual feminist nonsense that immediately collapses as soon as we remember what your ideological compatriots argued like.

[Dakini]

I would advocate for building a world where employers do not discriminate on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc when it comes to decisions in hiring or promotion. In the meantime, quotas are better than nothing.

Why is it better than nothing to discriminate against males?

Because doing nothing involves discriminating against women, people of colour etc.

Stop acting like the straight white men are the most persecuted peoples in the world because anyone else wants a level playing field.

[Purpelia]

I was talking about men as the demographic that has to put up with the nazis (feminists, who think the jews males are out to ruin everything and run the world, and this makes discrimination against them ok because it's not REAL discrimination.)
I am talking about the people who identify as feminist despite not being female chauvinists and comparing them to the vast bulk of the nazi supporters who just liked the bits about national pride and the fatherland, and either ignored or didn't care about the details.

Oh, my apologies than. Now that you have explained it the point makes sense.
Excuse the brash response. I was riled up by responding to Dakini and some of that negative emotion spilled over.

I would advocate for building a world where employers do not discriminate on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc when it comes to decisions in hiring or promotion.

This is where we agree.

In the meantime, quotas are better than nothing.

And now we no longer do. Something is only better than nothing if that something is good and functional in the first place.

Stop acting like the straight white men are the most persecuted peoples in the world because anyone else wants a level playing field.

A level playing field does not mean what you think it means. It means being given the same chance and having to overcome the same type of crap to achieve the same crappy meaningless results that fade out of your grasp as soon as you get them only to be replaced by the next nigh impossible task. And it means having to do that all day long every day for the entire duration of your life just to get by because life sucks.

[Dakini]

Come back when you can read the conversation you're responding to.

You're arguing that calling a Jew a Kike is just fine,

No. If your reading comprehension did not so utterly fail you, you would find that this is not what I was arguing.

[Ostroeuropa]

Why is it better than nothing to discriminate against males?

Because doing nothing involves discriminating against women, people of colour etc.

Stop acting like the straight white men are the most persecuted peoples in the world because anyone else wants a level playing field.

It doesn't discriminate against them. They are able to get into the system just fine. Many do not, yes, and that is a problem with the culture. Not one that quotas can solve.
I'm not acting like it. I'm flat out stating that the feminist movement is actively persecuting white males. That makes it an enemy to equal rights.

[Dakini]

I'm not acting like it. I'm flat out stating that the feminist movement is actively persecuting white males. That makes it an enemy to equal rights.

It's not my fault that you are profoundly ignorant and haven't bothered to educate yourself in the least.

[Orham]

I would advocate for building a world where employers do not discriminate on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc when it comes to decisions in hiring or promotion. In the meantime, quotas are better than nothing.

I tend to advocate for non-discrimination legislation, outreach campaigns designed to encourage and equip women and girls to proactively seek to establish careers for themselves and to seek economic independence (really though, those could be targeted at everyone and things would be fine), and campaigns aimed to dissociate gender/race/sexual orientation and professional competence. These are all things that are happening, but I figured I'd outline some of the things I'm for out of fairness.

[Purpelia]

I would advocate for building a world where employers do not discriminate on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc when it comes to decisions in hiring or promotion. In the meantime, quotas are better than nothing.

I tend to advocate for non-discrimination legislation, outreach campaigns designed to encourage and equip women and girls to proactively seek to establish careers for themselves and to seek economic independence (really though, those could be targeted at everyone and things would be fine), and campaigns aimed to dissociate gender/race/sexual orientation and professional competence. These are all things that are happening, but I figured I'd outline some of the things I'm for out of fairness.

This I agree with.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not acting like it. I'm flat out stating that the feminist movement is actively persecuting white males. That makes it an enemy to equal rights.

It's not my fault that you are profoundly ignorant and haven't bothered to educate yourself in the least.

Havn't you read mein kampf?
Isn't it obvious that the Jews are out to destroy everything and run the world?
You are simply uneducated. Go read our books some more. Then you will understand why discriminating against Jews is ok, because they are the system.

[Orham]

Don't you know Jews are overrepresented in media and business? We need anti-jewish quotas. I find it completely ridiculous that you people didn't learn the last time these arguments kept being forwarded.

...I know you're more focused on Dakini than on me at present, but that's resulting in a buildup of counterexamples to your characterizations the like of which you wouldn't believe. Best to slow down, maybe take a breath, and then give the thread another shot. It can't be good for your blood pressure, getting pissed off that easily.