NATION

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I have the right to use government land (now with slavery!)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who's right in this whole debacle

The BLM "Bureau of Land Manegment" i.e. the government
263
66%
The Nevada Rancher
71
18%
Half & Half
29
7%
Neither
35
9%
 
Total votes : 398

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Vazdania
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Posts: 19448
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Postby Vazdania » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:01 pm

Roski wrote:
Vazdania wrote:Le source!!!!!!!! I'm not saying its wrong, I just want to see for myself. :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff#United_States_v._Bundy

ew No. Wikipedia, while appropriate many times on NS. Is not something Vazdania accepts at this time, please leave a better source after the beep.



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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:01 pm

Quintium wrote:
Vazdania wrote:It was completely inappropriate.


That's not the point, though. This wasn't about turtles or cattle. This was about the reach of the federal government - how far can they go, how much can they regulate and how much do people have to take from them? Even though he's been avoiding the debate so far, you can bet that Obama knows what's going on and has been thinking about it. Should the federal government have been able to just trample over this ranch, then it would have been a very minor victory for the wildlife but a very major symbolic victory for any politician thinking of giving the federal government more funding, more power and more legal rights.


But it wasn't his land, it never was his land, he was a trespasser.

Stop making up conspiracy theories. You're worse than the people who still believe the Benghazi witness even after he admitted he made his story up.
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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:02 pm

Roski wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:The SWAT team is permitted to own and use automatic weapons, chemical agents (tear gas) and body armour, and has formal training in clearing buildings and ground.

SWAT is beating wannabe secessionists.


These guys also use Automatic weapons, can produce Napalm in their back yards, and have lots of Ammunition to fall back on.

They would most likely have to use tanks.


If the US really wanted to get serious, they could call in the National Guard and the Military.

Though again, I don't think there will be riots across the nation.
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AiliailiA
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Postby AiliailiA » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:02 pm

Quintium wrote:Here is something interesting that I've come across. It's in one of the sources posted by one of you - presumably one who does not support the Bundy family.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the ... overnment/

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid tells a local news outlet, "It's not over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over."


Do you see the subtle wording? It's not "we can't have people who violate the law and then just walk away from it." No, it's "we can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it." And still the people in Reid's camp argue that this isn't about affirming the government's power over the people.


Yep. He did say that: youtube at 1 minute 25.

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Roski
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Postby Roski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:02 pm

Vazdania wrote:

ew No. Wikipedia, while appropriate many times on NS. Is not something Vazdania accepts at this time, please leave a better source after the beep.



BEEP.


It includes the official outcome of the Supreme Court Order.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:02 pm

Roski wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:The SWAT team is permitted to own and use automatic weapons, chemical agents (tear gas) and body armour, and has formal training in clearing buildings and ground.

SWAT is beating wannabe secessionists.


These guys also use Automatic weapons, can produce Napalm in their back yards, and have lots of Ammunition to fall back on.

They would most likely have to use tanks.

I can make napalm. So can you. It's piss easy, in theory.
The trick is being able to use napalm and not kill yourself in the process.

Two tons of tear gas will have these faggoty secessionists feeling all hardman with their rifles and "down wit gub'mit" attitude weeping in a police truck.
And I will use their tears to distil me some tabasco.
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Quintium
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Postby Quintium » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:03 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Quintium wrote:
He explicitly did not say "Bundy". He did not even refer to individuals. He referred to "an American people", in the sense of roughly 317,899,000 residing within the United States of America.

If you understood context, you would realize he was referring to Bundy and his criminal buddies who have threatened violence against Federal agents.


How? There was absolutely no context provided. Reid literally said "an American people", and added that they should obey the law even if they consider it unjust. Now, while that argument has something going for it (even if this is federal power tripping and nothing more), he certainly did not mean Bundy. Plus, you know, this wasn't a mayor or a backwater judge talking. This was a national politician, and one of the most important ones at that. This, to him, is a symbolic conflict, one in which he can either affirm or lose the federal government's credibility.
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Providence and Port Hope
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Postby Providence and Port Hope » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:03 pm

Am I the only one here who noticed the OP called this a bunch of bull!?
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Roski
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Postby Roski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:03 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Roski wrote:
These guys also use Automatic weapons, can produce Napalm in their back yards, and have lots of Ammunition to fall back on.

They would most likely have to use tanks.


If the US really wanted to get serious, they could call in the National Guard and the Military.

Though again, I don't think there will be riots across the nation.


There would be.
Others, like the Black Panthers, might get in on it, but fighting on another side.
The country is already divided into clear sides. This "siege" did not help.
I'm some 17 year old psuedo-libertarian who leans to the left in social terms, is fiercly right economically, and centrist in foriegn policy. Unapologetically Pro-American, Pro-NATO, even if we do fuck up (a lot). If you can find real sources that disagree with me I will change my opinion. Call me IHOP cause I'm always flipping.

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:04 pm

Vazdania wrote:

ew No. Wikipedia, while appropriate many times on NS. Is not something Vazdania accepts at this time, please leave a better source after the beep.



BEEP.

You need to learn to check the references...
There is nothing wrong with (that section at least) of the wikipedia article.
PDF of court decision.
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Roski
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Postby Roski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:05 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Roski wrote:
These guys also use Automatic weapons, can produce Napalm in their back yards, and have lots of Ammunition to fall back on.

They would most likely have to use tanks.

I can make napalm. So can you. It's piss easy, in theory.
The trick is being able to use napalm and not kill yourself in the process.

Two tons of tear gas will have these faggoty secessionists feeling all hardman with their rifles and "down wit gub'mit" attitude weeping in a police truck.
And I will use their tears to distil me some tabasco.


It would look like Kiev and Caracas.
Last edited by Roski on Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm some 17 year old psuedo-libertarian who leans to the left in social terms, is fiercly right economically, and centrist in foriegn policy. Unapologetically Pro-American, Pro-NATO, even if we do fuck up (a lot). If you can find real sources that disagree with me I will change my opinion. Call me IHOP cause I'm always flipping.

Follow my Vex Robotics team on instagram! @3921a_vex

I am the Federal Republic of Roski. I have a population slightly over 256 million with a GDP of 13.92-14.25 trillion. My gross domestic product increases each year between .4%-.1.4%. I have a military with 4.58 million total people, with 1.58 million of those active. My defense spending is 598.5 billion, or 4.2% of my Gross Domestic Product.

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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:05 pm

Quintium wrote:
Nazi Flower Power wrote:If his version of the law was how it worked, then the land probably would belong to some Native Americans.


Their role in this matter has been limited, unfortunately. All I could find was:

"The federal government just wants control of us. But I'm not going to be controlled," Keith Nay says.
But those seeking greater access to federal land deny they are looking for an old-West shoot-out.
"Do you want to see my weapons?" asks Norm Tom, a Paiute Indian and Nay's son-in-law, who runs about 100 cows on range adjoining Bundy's.
He pulls out two copies of the Constitution, one pocket-sized, one full sized.


Credit to Norm, he keeps his weapons in mint condition, because he clearly has never actually read the Constitution in his life.
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34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:05 pm

Quintium wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:If you understood context, you would realize he was referring to Bundy and his criminal buddies who have threatened violence against Federal agents.


How? There was absolutely no context provided. Reid literally said "an American people", and added that they should obey the law even if they consider it unjust. Now, while that argument has something going for it (even if this is federal power tripping and nothing more), he certainly did not mean Bundy. Plus, you know, this wasn't a mayor or a backwater judge talking. This was a national politician, and one of the most important ones at that. This, to him, is a symbolic conflict, one in which he can either affirm or lose the federal government's credibility.

The context is he was talking about Bundy and his criminal buddies preventing the BLM from doing their fucking job.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:06 pm

Roski wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:I can make napalm. So can you. It's piss easy, in theory.
The trick is being able to use napalm and not kill yourself in the process.

Two tons of tear gas will have these faggoty secessionists feeling all hardman with their rifles and "down wit gub'mit" attitude weeping in a police truck.
And I will use their tears to distil me some tabasco.


It would look like Kiev and Caracas.

No.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
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Roski
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Postby Roski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:06 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Quintium wrote:
How? There was absolutely no context provided. Reid literally said "an American people", and added that they should obey the law even if they consider it unjust. Now, while that argument has something going for it (even if this is federal power tripping and nothing more), he certainly did not mean Bundy. Plus, you know, this wasn't a mayor or a backwater judge talking. This was a national politician, and one of the most important ones at that. This, to him, is a symbolic conflict, one in which he can either affirm or lose the federal government's credibility.

The context is he was talking about Bundy and his criminal buddies preventing the BLM from doing their fucking job without casualties and a possible uprising.
I'm some 17 year old psuedo-libertarian who leans to the left in social terms, is fiercly right economically, and centrist in foriegn policy. Unapologetically Pro-American, Pro-NATO, even if we do fuck up (a lot). If you can find real sources that disagree with me I will change my opinion. Call me IHOP cause I'm always flipping.

Follow my Vex Robotics team on instagram! @3921a_vex

I am the Federal Republic of Roski. I have a population slightly over 256 million with a GDP of 13.92-14.25 trillion. My gross domestic product increases each year between .4%-.1.4%. I have a military with 4.58 million total people, with 1.58 million of those active. My defense spending is 598.5 billion, or 4.2% of my Gross Domestic Product.

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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:06 pm

Roski wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
If the US really wanted to get serious, they could call in the National Guard and the Military.

Though again, I don't think there will be riots across the nation.


There would be.
Others, like the Black Panthers, might get in on it, but fighting on another side.
The country is already divided into clear sides. This "siege" did not help.


Once the riots are quelled and people get more complacent with the State, only the more hardcore groups will be staging riots and such.

Then these can be labelled at Domestic Terrorists and will be detained accordingly.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Quintium
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Postby Quintium » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:07 pm

Death Metal wrote:But it wasn't his land, it never was his land, he was a trespasser.


What the supposed facts are here - legally, the federal government is entirely in the right even though its argument is based on its own legislation - is not even the core of the issue. The core of the issue is the ridiculously politicized and overdrawn reaction from the federal government. Their intention was not just to take the cattle and get the rancher off the land. Their intention was to make an example of him, as they have done with all the ranchers who used to also use that land. They've been legally battering these ranchers until they gave up for decades, after demanding fees for them for another couple of decades.
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Roski
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Postby Roski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:07 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Roski wrote:
It would look like Kiev and Caracas.

No.

Except the "rioters" are much better armed, and they really don't have a chance of Russia coming in and taking part of the country.
I'm some 17 year old psuedo-libertarian who leans to the left in social terms, is fiercly right economically, and centrist in foriegn policy. Unapologetically Pro-American, Pro-NATO, even if we do fuck up (a lot). If you can find real sources that disagree with me I will change my opinion. Call me IHOP cause I'm always flipping.

Follow my Vex Robotics team on instagram! @3921a_vex

I am the Federal Republic of Roski. I have a population slightly over 256 million with a GDP of 13.92-14.25 trillion. My gross domestic product increases each year between .4%-.1.4%. I have a military with 4.58 million total people, with 1.58 million of those active. My defense spending is 598.5 billion, or 4.2% of my Gross Domestic Product.

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Roski
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Founded: Nov 18, 2013
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Postby Roski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:08 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Roski wrote:
There would be.
Others, like the Black Panthers, might get in on it, but fighting on another side.
The country is already divided into clear sides. This "siege" did not help.


Once the riots are quelled and people get more complacent with the State, only the more hardcore groups will be staging riots and such.

Then these can be labelled at Domestic Terrorists and will be detained accordingly.


If they can get them.
Understand there will be a heavy amount of loss of life involved in such an event.
I'm some 17 year old psuedo-libertarian who leans to the left in social terms, is fiercly right economically, and centrist in foriegn policy. Unapologetically Pro-American, Pro-NATO, even if we do fuck up (a lot). If you can find real sources that disagree with me I will change my opinion. Call me IHOP cause I'm always flipping.

Follow my Vex Robotics team on instagram! @3921a_vex

I am the Federal Republic of Roski. I have a population slightly over 256 million with a GDP of 13.92-14.25 trillion. My gross domestic product increases each year between .4%-.1.4%. I have a military with 4.58 million total people, with 1.58 million of those active. My defense spending is 598.5 billion, or 4.2% of my Gross Domestic Product.

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Imperializt Russia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2011
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:08 pm

Quintium wrote:
Death Metal wrote:But it wasn't his land, it never was his land, he was a trespasser.


What the supposed facts are here - legally, the federal government is entirely in the right even though its argument is based on its own legislation - is not even the core of the issue. The core of the issue is the ridiculously politicized and overdrawn reaction from the federal government. Their intention was not just to take the cattle and get the rancher off the land. Their intention was to make an example of him, as they have done with all the ranchers who used to also use that land. They've been legally battering these ranchers until they gave up for decades, after demanding fees for them for another couple of decades.

You seem to be implying that America is an Anarchic state which the federal government has infiltrated.

I suggest you leave this idiotic logic train where it belongs, not in a public forum.
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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:09 pm

Quintium wrote:
Death Metal wrote:But it wasn't his land, it never was his land, he was a trespasser.


What the supposed facts are here - legally, the federal government is entirely in the right even though its argument is based on its own legislation - is not even the core of the issue. The core of the issue is the ridiculously politicized and overdrawn reaction from the federal government. Their intention was not just to take the cattle and get the rancher off the land. Their intention was to make an example of him, as they have done with all the ranchers who used to also use that land. They've been legally battering these ranchers until they gave up for decades, after demanding fees for them for another couple of decades.

Ah... You're a conspiracy theorist. kthanxbai.
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
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Quintium
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Postby Quintium » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:09 pm

Dyakovo wrote:The context is he was talking about Bundy and his criminal buddies preventing the BLM from doing their fucking job.


Now, now, no need to get angry. He said, though, "we can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it."
He - a man who lives and works thousands of miles from that ranch and is a very important national politician - has politicized this issue to highlight that his view, and the view of the federal government, is that the people should obey the law regardless of what the law is and how it came to exist. Believe me, a major national politician doesn't just comment randomly on local issues.
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Roski
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Founded: Nov 18, 2013
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Postby Roski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:10 pm

Quintium wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:The context is he was talking about Bundy and his criminal buddies preventing the BLM from doing their fucking job.


Now, now, no need to get angry. He said, though, "we can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it."
He - a man who lives and works thousands of miles from that ranch and is a very important national politician - has politicized this issue to highlight that his view, and the view of the federal government, is that the people should obey the law regardless of what the law is and how it came to exist. Believe me, a major national politician doesn't just comment randomly on local issues.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/07/19/remarks-president-trayvon-martin

Lies.
I'm some 17 year old psuedo-libertarian who leans to the left in social terms, is fiercly right economically, and centrist in foriegn policy. Unapologetically Pro-American, Pro-NATO, even if we do fuck up (a lot). If you can find real sources that disagree with me I will change my opinion. Call me IHOP cause I'm always flipping.

Follow my Vex Robotics team on instagram! @3921a_vex

I am the Federal Republic of Roski. I have a population slightly over 256 million with a GDP of 13.92-14.25 trillion. My gross domestic product increases each year between .4%-.1.4%. I have a military with 4.58 million total people, with 1.58 million of those active. My defense spending is 598.5 billion, or 4.2% of my Gross Domestic Product.

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Death Metal
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Founded: Dec 22, 2011
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Postby Death Metal » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:11 pm

Quintium wrote:
Death Metal wrote:But it wasn't his land, it never was his land, he was a trespasser.


What the supposed facts are here - legally, the federal government is entirely in the right even though its argument is based on its own legislation - is not even the core of the issue.


Yeah, I'm putting you on ignore now. This is happening in the real world, not the Kingdom of Make Believe. When you're ready to treat this like a real world issue, maybe I'll listen to you then.
Only here when I'm VERY VERY VERY bored now.
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Death Metal: A nation founded on the most powerful force in the world: METAL! \m/
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34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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AiliailiA
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Posts: 27722
Founded: Jul 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby AiliailiA » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:11 pm

Quintium wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:The context is he was talking about Bundy and his criminal buddies preventing the BLM from doing their fucking job.


Now, now, no need to get angry. He said, though, "we can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it."
He - a man who lives and works thousands of miles from that ranch and is a very important national politician - has politicized this issue to highlight that his view, and the view of the federal government, is that the people should obey the law regardless of what the law is and how it came to exist. Believe me, a major national politician doesn't just comment randomly on local issues.


He is one of the Senators for Nevada you know. It's obviously not a "local issue" if a Federal agency is involved and the State government isn't.
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Cannot think of a name wrote:"Where's my immortality?" will be the new "Where's my jetpack?"
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: eugenics :
What are the colons meant to convey here?
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