Sexuality, Human Expression, and Personhood

[Liriena]

If you don't see a reason to "pander" to someone looking solely for actual evidence I am quite pleased you're no longer going to impede discussion.

Gotta hand it to you, you really do know how to make me laugh out loud at 4 a.m.

[Kelinfort]

Actually, yes. Why you ask? People can measure attraction to other genders as well as their own perceived gender. If they feel no such attraction, they may still in drift as their gender or none at all. Physical and mental being transcend two categories because these two genders are stereotypes. Such qualities as masculinity and femininity are not mutually exclusive.

Yeah no to that second thing. You're making a claim. Demonstrate it as logically true or back it with evidence.

Here's the problem: neither side has evidence. You make the claim that gender is exclusive and binary based on stereotypes and chromosomes. However, as we can see based on human genetic diseases and personality, these stereotypes do not always hold true; bodily appearance and function may be different as may personality traits.

[Des-Bal]

Gotta hand it to you, you really do know how to make me laugh out loud at 4 a.m.

Make a rational argument and if necessary back it up with sources. This is my task for you. Do this thing and we can have an actual discussion. As it stands you're making assertions, supporting them with other people's assertions.

[Des-Bal]

Here's the problem: neither side has evidence. You make the claim that gender is exclusive and binary based on stereotypes and chromosomes. However, as we can see based on human genetic diseases and personality, these stereotypes do not always hold true; bodily appearance and function may be different as may personality traits.

Right but your side is saying "believe this thing" you don't believe something in the absence of evidence.

[Kelinfort]

Here's the problem: neither side has evidence. You make the claim that gender is exclusive and binary based on stereotypes and chromosomes. However, as we can see based on human genetic diseases and personality, these stereotypes do not always hold true; bodily appearance and function may be different as may personality traits.

Right but your side is saying "believe this thing" you don't believe something in the absence of evidence.

What is your evidence that gender is exclusive and binary? The only reason humanity has believed gender is exclusive and binary is due to the perceived stereotypes of the general population throughout history, which had little knowledge of genetic ailments. Even today, we find people who break the model with different sexual features and personalities.

[Des-Bal]

What is your evidence that gender is exclusive and binary? The only reason humanity has believed gender is exclusive and binary is due to the perceived stereotypes of the general population throughout history, which had little knowledge of genetic ailments. Even today, we find people who break the model with different sexual features and personalities.

I'm saying the idea of "intersex" is best addressed by redefining our chromosomal understanding of male and female. I'm saying that the idea of men and women being separate genders makes sense, the idea of being transgender makes sense, but the idea of existing either perfectly between the two or completely off the scale does not. Show me the mechanism by which a person is without gender or create a coherent argument by which intersex is a better term and you know what will happen? I'll have learned a thing. I will spin on a mother-fucking dime and I will consider this entire discussion a great big win for me because some additional knowledge came my way. What you can't do is try to feed me bullshit and assume I'll be too lazy to read your sources.

[Liriena]

Gotta hand it to you, you really do know how to make me laugh out loud at 4 a.m.

Make a rational argument and if necessary back it up with sources. This is my task for you. Do this thing and we can have an actual discussion. As it stands you're making assertions, supporting them with other people's assertions.

My argument is the following: Given the existence of individuals whose sexual characteristics are, at the very least, ambiguous or unique in comparison to conventional males and females, and given how gender is a sociocultural and mental construct with no clearly defined universal boundaries and a long history of of being more complex than a simple binary, non-binary sexes and genders are legitimate entities, worthy of social and legal recognition.

As for sources, I already gave you more than enough, whether you wish to come to terms with it or not.

[Liriena]

Here's the problem: neither side has evidence. You make the claim that gender is exclusive and binary based on stereotypes and chromosomes. However, as we can see based on human genetic diseases and personality, these stereotypes do not always hold true; bodily appearance and function may be different as may personality traits.

Right but your side is saying "believe this thing" you don't believe something in the absence of evidence.

We don't.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

...non-binary sexes and genders are legitimate entities, worthy of social and legal recognition.

IIRC, Australia has decided to have a Gender-neutral category for its passports (it appears as an X). I truly like that.

[Des-Bal]

My argument is the following: Given the existence of individuals whose sexual characteristics are, at the very least, ambiguous or unique in comparison to conventional males and females, and given how gender is a sociocultural and mental construct with no clearly defined universal boundaries and a long history of of being more complex than a simple binary, non-binary sexes and genders are legitimate entities, worthy of social and legal recognition.

As for sources, I already gave you more than enough, whether you wish to come to terms with it or not.

So glad you decided to have an actual discussino.


I'm going to break that down into two arguments for the purposes of clarity if you have a problem with it please let me know.

1. Individuals whose sexual characteristics are ambiguous in comparison to conventioanl male and females are worthy of social and legal recognition.

2. Gender is sociocultural and mental with no universal defined bounderies.

1. Why.

2. Doesn't your own source conflict that? We can look at white matter and see observable physical differences. If gender was a matter of preference this wouldn't be an issue, it would be like picking your own nick name.

[Liriena]

My argument is the following: Given the existence of individuals whose sexual characteristics are, at the very least, ambiguous or unique in comparison to conventional males and females, and given how gender is a sociocultural and mental construct with no clearly defined universal boundaries and a long history of of being more complex than a simple binary, non-binary sexes and genders are legitimate entities, worthy of social and legal recognition.

As for sources, I already gave you more than enough, whether you wish to come to terms with it or not.

So glad you decided to have an actual discussino.


I'm going to break that down into two arguments for the purposes of clarity if you have a problem with it please let me know.

1. Individuals whose sexual characteristics are ambiguous in comparison to conventioanl male and females are worthy of social and legal recognition.

2. Gender is sociocultural and mental with no universal defined bounderies.

1. Why.

Because refusing to recognize their condition and forcing their parents to choose between "male" and "female" would invariably lead to (more) cases in the line of David Reimer's.

2. Doesn't your own source conflict that? We can look at white matter and see observable physical differences. If gender was a matter of preference this wouldn't be an issue, it would be like picking your own nick name.

Notice how I said "sociocultural and mental".

The people who do not identify as any of the genders of the conventional binary are just as transgender as transgender men and women. They don't do so out of preference.

[Des-Bal]

Because refusing to recognize their condition and forcing their parents to choose between "male" and "female" would invariably lead to (more) cases in the line of David Reimer's.


The people who do not identify as any of the genders of the conventional binary are just as transgender as transgender men and women. They don't do so out of preference.

You're arguing it would make people happy. What you're not doing is arguing why it's true.

You're making a claim, demonstrate it to be true.

[Liriena]

Because refusing to recognize their condition and forcing their parents to choose between "male" and "female" would invariably lead to (more) cases in the line of David Reimer's.


The people who do not identify as any of the genders of the conventional binary are just as transgender as transgender men and women. They don't do so out of preference.

You're arguing it would make people happy. What you're not doing is arguing why it's true.

I beg your pardon?

You're making a claim, demonstrate it to be true.

Non-binary gender identities fall beneath the transgender umbrella.

Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1]

[Des-Bal]

Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1]

Pointless Sauce: Assertion is not based in evidence.

[Liriena]

Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1]

Pointless Sauce: Assertion is not based in evidence.

Look, it's 5 a.m. in my area and I won't be able to type a proper response, so I'll try to respond to this... thing... later.

[Des-Bal]

Look, it's 5 a.m. in my area and I won't be able to type a proper response, so I'll try to respond to this... thing... later.

It's 4:Am in my area. You don't need to explain why you won't respond logically when it's it's convenient.

[The Flood]

Why is this argument here a thing? Gosh.

Personally, I don't see why gender should be a thing at all, why don't people just identify as their sex, and act how they want, whether that coincides with their sex's typical behaviour, or the behaviour typical of the other sex? Why does gender have to be a thing to identify as, when all it really is is a certain set of behaviours associated primarily with a certain biological sex?

In any case, what does it matter what I think, what does it matter what anyone thinks of gender if they don't actively wish to harm people of non-binary gender alignments or put them in a socially hindered position? This argument just seems silly to me. Nobody here is a bigot, so what does it matter?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Personally, I don't see why gender should be a thing at all, why don't people just identify as their sex, and act how they want, whether that coincides with their sex's typical behaviour, or the behaviour typical of the other sex? Why does gender have to be a thing to identify as, when all it really is is a certain set of behaviours associated primarily with a certain biological sex?

I feel dysphoria about my body. It's a horrible feeling. It's like feeling bad about your body because you're obese, but at least 4 or 5 times worse.

These other people probably feel uncomfortable about people assuming stuff about them, or what comes from their mouth. For some people it's all fine and dandy to not vocally express their dysphoria (I guess this is the case of plenty of non-transgender people with uncommon gender expression, maybe they actually feel non-binary but didn't give it a thought - I only found out for sure that I am at age 18, for example), but in the life of some others their families forced values on them to a level that they can't feel comfortable anymore with any sort of supposition "you are assigned to this place, and NOT the other, and if you question this duty of yours you're scum". For some people it might seem easy, but even being an effeminate man or masculine woman can get you called names and stuff (that we should be free to take in whatever part of gender role we want is part of feminism, I guess), and you can expect everybody around you to be civil enough to mention these details.

Some people have dysphorias even deeper than this, and I guess even a theoretical Gender Studies' common ideology-based perfect world would still trigger them to want to transition. This is likely caused by neurological influences that to most of us aren't even touchable because it starts to take place early and deep at childhood (like these very early trans kids insisting that they're boys/girls to their parents at ages 2, 3, 4 and 5, or the ones that weren't vocal about it but always felt that way).

In any case, what does it matter what I think, what does it matter what anyone thinks of gender if they don't actively wish to harm people of non-binary gender alignments or put them in a socially hindered position? This argument just seems silly to me. Nobody here is a bigot, so what does it matter?

In real life it wouldn't be, but in NSG assertions and reasons tend to be questioned, and intellectual dishonesty is shunned. So it became a snowball.

[Divair2]

Why is this argument here a thing?

Conservatism.

[Kelinfort]

Why is this argument here a thing?

Conservatism.

Religious Conservatism. There are a few atheistic Conservatives. Surprisingly Liberal about homosexuality and gender roles.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Conservatism.

Religious Conservatism. There are a few atheistic Conservatives. Surprisingly Liberal about homosexuality and gender roles.

Des-Bal isn't part of the religious right lol

[The Rich Port]

Conservatism.

Religious Conservatism. There are a few atheistic Conservatives. Surprisingly Liberal about homosexuality and gender roles.

Social conservatism, more broadly.

[Kelinfort]

Religious Conservatism. There are a few atheistic Conservatives. Surprisingly Liberal about homosexuality and gender roles.

Des-Bal isn't part of the religious right lol

I know, it's not universally right.

[Blackwing Coast]

I'm of the opinion that sexual openness has gone too far. The depth of perversion in society is dangerous towards both men and women. The sexualization of other human beings is the root cause of both male and female objectifation. Men and women have their places and abide by the path set forward. Shakespeare put on paper the seven stages of man, it is now my turn to give woman some spotlight. The girl next door, the mother, the wife. She is peaceful in her behavior and her words are never rotten. Her smile stuns her her male companion, courtship is how she's pleased. She's a good girl who loves her mama, she loves horses, and the chairman too. Now I'm free... free to say that culture can be shifted if we had higher standards for our boys and girls.

Should the State enforce traditonal morality to protect the people from themselves? I think the state is required to, virtue makes people- people.

I do see your point but I thoroughly disagree with you. Besides, all pretenses of morality can't "fix" that - it would require brain implants and genetic engineering. And I would much rather have the state keep out of my brain.

If you want enforced womanly conduct, convert to Islam and move to Sharia-La.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

move to Sharia-La.

Unintended NSG humor is why NSG is best