Sexuality, Human Expression, and Personhood

[Liriena]

Nana is quoting the article on intersex people, not non-binary genders. Since you didn't merely deny the existence of third genders, but also the existence of intersex people, both her and I are also addressing the latter. Therefor, what Nana has provided is most certainly of interest, unless you are going to deny that you ever refused to acknowledge that intersex people exist, which would be nothing short of hilarious, given how it's now a matter of public record that you did.

I'm saying the definition of intersex is silly.

Which is really cute, but not particularly compelling.

I'm saying I go by male female depending on chromosomes. If you've read anything else into that you've read poorly.

All I read into this is that you think you know better than an overwhelming scientific consensus in matters in which you don't seem to have much insight.

[Kelinfort]

Don't condescend me, Des-Bal. Right now, you have no moral or intellectual authority to condescend anyone on this thread.

You're linking wikipedia articles, refusing to make actual arguments, and avoiding any actual discussion like the plague. My boots are kicked up and I am enjoying the view from the high ground.

http://dxline.info/diseases/klinefelters-syndrome

These syndromes present problems with chromosome method. Now, I know you already knew that, however the physical features and mental aspects complicate this.

[Des-Bal]

It isn't. You may find it silly, but your convictions hardly count here.

And we've told you that there are people who identify as neither, either psychologically or physically (as per the article I cited to you, more than once). Their gender is X, neither male nor female. They exist.

Compare your argument to that of any religious person. You're argument is that people say that certain things are true. The one article you brought up that operates on a level above personal choice polling didn't substantiate the claim that people can be neither. What I want you to do is to prove this to yourself first. Prove it using nothing but evidence, disregard what you want and just look at what is demonstrably true.

[Des-Bal]

http://dxline.info/diseases/klinefelters-syndrome

These syndromes present problems with chromosome method. Now, I know you already knew that, however the physical features and mental aspects complicate this.

They only present a problem if you believe xy male and xx female are the only forms of male and female.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It isn't. You may find it silly, but your convictions hardly count here.

And we've told you that there are people who identify as neither, either psychologically or physically (as per the article I cited to you, more than once). Their gender is X, neither male nor female. They exist.

Compare your argument to that of any religious person. You're argument is that people say that certain things are true. The one article you brought up that operates on a level above personal choice polling didn't substantiate the claim that people can be neither. What I want you to do is to prove this to yourself first. Prove it using nothing but evidence, disregard what you want and just look at what is demonstrably true.

Except the article has scientifically proven data. Check it's sources. It's not what I want to believe. It's there, clear as day. You, however, don't wish to see. Burden of proof is on you, bub.

[Des-Bal]

Except the article has scientifically proven data. Check it's sources. It's not what I want to believe. It's there, clear as day. You, however, don't wish to see. Burden of proof is on you, bub.

No it doesn't. I asked you to provide it and you've failed to. You're evidence is what certain people say is true and you're operating in the complete absence of evidence.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Except the article has scientifically proven data. Check it's sources. It's not what I want to believe. It's there, clear as day. You, however, don't wish to see. Burden of proof is on you, bub.

No it doesn't. I asked you to provide it and you've failed to. You're evidence is what certain people say is true and you're operating in the complete absence of evidence.

I'm operating on what the sources of the article state.

Be intellectually honest for once.

[Liriena]

Don't condescend me, Des-Bal. Right now, you have no moral or intellectual authority to condescend anyone on this thread.

You're linking wikipedia articles, refusing to make actual arguments, and avoiding any actual discussion like the plague.

I made my arguments a while ago. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them, much like you've refused to acknowledge anything that doesn't aid your narcissistic masturbation, it doesn't mean I haven't done my share.

It would be nice to see you provide actual sources to substantiate your claims, though.

My boots are kicked up and I am enjoying the view from the high ground.

Aww, that's so cute! He thinks he's the only smartass here!

[Des-Bal]

Which is really cute, but not particularly compelling.

All I read into this is that you think you know better than an overwhelming scientific consensus in matters in which you don't seem to have much insight.

Sure it is. I'm asking you for something that isn't based in sillyness and you don't have the ability to provide it.

No, what you should have read into it is that your "scientific consensus" isn't based on science.

[Des-Bal]

I made my arguments a while ago. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them, much like you've refused to acknowledge anything that doesn't aid your narcissistic masturbation, it doesn't mean I haven't done my share.

It would be nice to see you provide actual sources to substantiate your claims, though.


Aww, that's so cute! He thinks he's the only smartass here!

No you didn't. You have literally nothing factual. The only thing allowing you to cling to your delusions is the supposition that a link is valid evidence despite the contents of it.

My claims are the evidence isn't there.

I don't think I'm the only smartass here I think I'm the only person in this particular argument going off of evidence rather than a desire to believe something. I find that sad.

[Kelinfort]

http://dxline.info/diseases/klinefelters-syndrome

These syndromes present problems with chromosome method. Now, I know you already knew that, however the physical features and mental aspects complicate this.

They only present a problem if you believe xy male and xx female are the only forms of male and female.

Self perception also factors into this problem. You realise that, correct? Also, there are the problems with physical features and genitalia. This can have ramifications chromosomes do not account for.

[Des-Bal]

I'm operating on what the sources of the article state.

Be intellectually honest for once.

You're talking about assertions that aren't supported by the information in the article. Things that aren't relevant to the hard data involved.

[Des-Bal]

Self perception also factors into this problem. You realise that, correct? Also, there are the problems with physical features and genitalia. This can have ramifications chromosomes do not account for.

Why. Why exactly should it factor in? I sincerely hope you're about to lead into a logical argument based in evidence, I'd consider it a delightful departure from the present state of affairs.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I'm operating on what the sources of the article state.

Be intellectually honest for once.

You're talking about assertions that aren't supported by the information in the article. Things that aren't relevant to the hard data involved.

Nope, you honestly did not read the Wiki article. But at this point, I'm not surprised.

[Des-Bal]

Nope, you honestly did not read the Wiki article. But at this point, I'm not surprised.

Yes I did. The article doesn't say what you seem to think it does. I asked you to show me exactly which parts you thought were backing you up and as I pointed out it was a lot of bullshit.

[Kelinfort]

Self perception also factors into this problem. You realise that, correct? Also, there are the problems with physical features and genitalia. This can have ramifications chromosomes do not account for.

Why. Why exactly should it factor in?

Personal perception of one's gender and place in a world are instrumental to their own happiness and success. If a person is uncomfortable with whom they are, at a basic level, they are less likely to be productive, happy, and successful in the wider world.

And what evidence do you wish for me to provide?

[Liriena]

Which is really cute, but not particularly compelling.

All I read into this is that you think you know better than an overwhelming scientific consensus in matters in which you don't seem to have much insight.

Sure it is. I'm asking you for something that isn't based in sillyness and you don't have the ability to provide it.

"Sillyness"? Is that really the only criticism you can come up with against the sources provided?

No, what you should have read into it is that your "scientific consensus" isn't based on science.

Says the Nobel Prize laureate whose brilliant criticism of medical science's recognition of intersex people he himself has summed up in one of the few words in the English language that, ironically, can seldom be used in any serious context.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Nope, you honestly did not read the Wiki article. But at this point, I'm not surprised.

Yes I did. The article doesn't say what you seem to think it does. I asked you to show me exactly which parts you thought were backing you up and as I pointed out it was a lot of bullshit.

And that was done. It's not my problem if you're not happy with the data or what it says about intersex people that contradicts your notions.

You want it to be bullshit, but your desires are irrelevant to the veracity of the information.

[Des-Bal]

Personal perception of one's gender and place in a world are instrumental to their own happiness and success. If a person is uncomfortable with whom they are, at a basic level, they are less likely to be productive, happy, and successful in the wider world.

Why is that relevant? The only argument I can draw from that is that certain things being true would be beneficial to the happiness of certain people. I'm not denying that it's just not a real argument.

[Des-Bal]

And that was done. It's not my problem if you're not happy with the data or what it says about intersex people that contradicts your notions.

You want it to be bullshit, but your desires are irrelevant to the veracity of the information.

See you don't have data. That's the problem. What you're offering is fundamentally not data.

[Liriena]

I made my arguments a while ago. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them, much like you've refused to acknowledge anything that doesn't aid your narcissistic masturbation, it doesn't mean I haven't done my share.

It would be nice to see you provide actual sources to substantiate your claims, though.


Aww, that's so cute! He thinks he's the only smartass here!

No you didn't. You have literally nothing factual. The only thing allowing you to cling to your delusions is the supposition that a link is valid evidence despite the contents of it.

My claims are the evidence isn't there.

In other words, argumentum ex culo.

I don't think I'm the only smartass here I think I'm the only person in this particular argument going off of evidence rather than a desire to believe something. I find that sad.

What evidence?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

And that was done. It's not my problem if you're not happy with the data or what it says about intersex people that contradicts your notions.

You want it to be bullshit, but your desires are irrelevant to the veracity of the information.

See you don't have data. That's the problem. What you're offering is fundamentally not data.

Right, that's what you keep saying, but we all know you're wrong.

Do you have any data to support your claims?

[Norstal]

Then you didn't read the sources provided.

Good job, Des-Bal. You just lost my respect for this last show of dishonesty.

I've read your sources. They don't say what you want them to say.

What did they say to you?

[Kelinfort]

And that was done. It's not my problem if you're not happy with the data or what it says about intersex people that contradicts your notions.

You want it to be bullshit, but your desires are irrelevant to the veracity of the information.

See you don't have data. That's the problem. What you're offering is fundamentally not data.

What data do you want to see? A scientific consensus? Personal opinion?

http://www.transchristians.org/book/boo ... d-intersex

[Des-Bal]

"Sillyness"? Is that really the only criticism you can come up with against the sources provided?


Says the Nobel Prize laureate whose brilliant criticism of medical science's recognition of intersex people he himself has summed up in one of the few words in the English language that, ironically, can seldom be used in any serious context.

Sillyness isn't a critique of the sources it's a critique of your unfortunate efforts to back up claims they don't pertain to. It's silly, it's childish, it's an effort to hide from reality.

Yep, so says I. Your data doesn't back up your claim. The purpose of using a source isn't to make words a color and then be right. Find someone whose data says what you're saying and I will look at that data and either believe you or explain to you why I don't. What you've done so far is offer sources with more baseless claims and data points that have nothing to do with what we're talking about.