Sexuality, Human Expression, and Personhood

[Liriena]

FFS, how much more evidence do you fucking want? Read the damned sources given. They're in Lirenia's posts, and in mine.

Jesus H. Christ.

You've. Given. Me. Nothing.

Then you didn't read the sources provided.

Good job, Des-Bal. You just lost my respect for this last show of dishonesty.

[Kelinfort]

You've. Given. Me. Nothing. You've linked to wikipedia pages that define and describe different ideas. I'm saying those ideas don't have enough meat to them. You have resopnded by linking to the same wikipedia pages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity Accept christ as your king. Did it work? Was that substantial evidence?

Read. The Fuck. Back.

No, it isn't wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex.

There. I made it easy for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#References

Sources to the source.

[Des-Bal]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U1C_S1V5N6E

The evidence for the existence of intersex people and people with non-binary genders was already provided in the two wiki articles I linked you to. I politely ask that you don't take me for an idiot.

I've already seen that study. It's not demonstrating what you think it is. I'm not saying there aren't people who feel male or female I'm saying there aren't people who are 1, perfectly inbetween or 2, completely separate from the gradient. That source backs up what I'm saying.

You're being silly right now. You're supporting an argument because you want it to be right not because evidence supports it and you seem to be getting upset that I won't partake in any of the sillyness. Evidence. Give it to me, hard evidence.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Read. The Fuck. Back.



There. I made it easy for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#References

Sources to the source.

Not to mention the list, in that very source, of other related terms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#See_also

[Des-Bal]

Then you didn't read the sources provided.

Good job, Des-Bal. You just lost my respect for this last show of dishonesty.

I've read your sources. They don't say what you want them to say.

[Liriena]

Then you didn't read the sources provided.

Good job, Des-Bal. You just lost my respect for this last show of dishonesty.

I've read your sources. They don't say what you want them to say.

Oh, I'm sorry. Does the article on intersex people fail to mention that intersex people exist, and probably reasons why they exist? Does the article on third genders fail to mention that non-binary genders exist and how they work?

Don't lie to my face. I may be dumb, but I'm not nearly dumb enough to fall for this sort of bullshit.

[Des-Bal]

Not to mention the list, in that very source, of other related terms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#See_also

I'd like to explain to you where the disconnect between what you're looking at and what you're thinking is happening. Tell me exactly what you think is evidence.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Not to mention the list, in that very source, of other related terms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#See_also

I'd like to explain to you where the disconnect between what you're looking at and what you're thinking is happening. Tell me exactly what you think is evidence.

That it evidences intersex people exist and that it isn't some sort of myth, as you keep insisting.

[Des-Bal]

Oh, I'm sorry. Does the article on intersex people fail to mention that intersex people exist, and probably reasons why they exist? Does the article on third genders fail to mention that non-binary genders exist and how they work?

Don't lie to my face. I may be dumb, but I'm not nearly dumb enough to fall for this sort of bullshit.

Yes,

Show me exactly where you think it says what you're thinking, what you're hoping it says. Show me your evidence. Don't link to a blind article. Don't bullshit me. Don't try to avoid confronting the bitter ugly truths about what you yourself believe. Show me EXACTLY why you believe what you do and make a case for why I should believe it.

The issue isn't that you're dumb it's that you're mistaking a desire to believe with evidence. I'd like to disabuse you of that, please let me. It will help me respect you.

[Des-Bal]

That it evidences intersex people exist and that it isn't some sort of myth, as you keep insisting.

No it isn't. Quote it. Quote the exact piece you think is evidence.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That it evidences intersex people exist and that it isn't some sort of myth, as you keep insisting.

No it isn't. Quote it. Quote the exact piece you think is evidence.

So you don't read the sources, I see.

Anyway, there:

Some individuals may be raised as a certain sex (male or female) but then identify with another later in life, while others may not identify themselves as either exclusively female or exclusively male. Research has shown gender identity of intersex individuals to be independent of sexual orientation, though some intersex conditions also affect an individual's sexual orientation. Recent legal and regulatory developments in Australia have distinguished "intersex status" from both gender identity and sexual orientation.

[Liriena]

Not to mention the list, in that very source, of other related terms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#See_also

I'd like to explain to you where the disconnect between what you're looking at and what you're thinking is happening. Tell me exactly what you think is evidence.

Let's start with the first fucking sentence in that wiki article:

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.[1][2]

[1] Money, John; Ehrhardt, Anke A. (1972). Man & Woman Boy & Girl. Differentiation and dimorphism of gender identity from conception to maturity. USA: The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0-8018-1405-7.
[2] Domurat Dreger, Alice (2001). Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex. USA: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-00189-3.

Here you have an indisputable acknowledgement of the existence of intersex people, thus putting your claims regarding our sources in peril.

Also:

Research[11] in the late 20th century indicates a growing medical consensus that diverse intersex bodies are normal—if relatively rare—forms of human biology. Milton Diamond, one of the most outspoken experts on matters affecting intersex people, stresses the importance of care in the selection of language related to such people.

[11] Pediatric gender assignment : a critical reappraisal ; [proceedings from a conference ... in Dallas in the spring of 1999 which was entitled "pediatric gender assignment - a critical reappraisal"]. New York, NY [u.a.]: Kluwer Acad. / Plenum Publ. 2002. ISBN 0306467593.

[Kelinfort]

That it evidences intersex people exist and that it isn't some sort of myth, as you keep insisting.

No it isn't. Quote it. Quote the exact piece you think is evidence.

Money, John; Ehrhardt, Anke A. (1972). Man & Woman Boy & Girl. Differentiation and dimorphism of gender identity from conception to maturity. USA: The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0-8018-1405-7.
^ Jump up to: a b c Domurat Dreger, Alice (2001). Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex. USA: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-00189-3.
Jump up ^ Marañón, Gregorio (1929). Los estados intersexuales en la especie humana. Madrid: Morata.
Jump up ^ Sexual identity and sexual orientation
^ Jump up to: a b c d Sex Discrimination Amendment (Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status) Act 2013, No. 98, 2013, ComLaw, C2013A00098, 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b Australian Parliament, Explanatory Memorandum to the Sex Discrimination Amendment (Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status) Bill 2013"
^ Jump up to: a b On the historic passing of the Sex Discrimination Amendment (Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status) Act 2013, Organisation Intersex International Australia, 25 June 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b c d Australian Government Guidelines on the Recognition of Sex and Gender, 30 May 2013
^ Jump up to: a b "Ingrid Holme, "Hearing People's Own Stories", in Science as Culture, Volume 17, Issue 3, 2008"
^ Jump up to: a b New Zealand Passports - Information about Changing Sex / Gender Identity
Jump up ^ Pediatric gender assignment : a critical reappraisal ; [proceedings from a conference ... in Dallas in the spring of 1999 which was entitled "pediatric gender assignment - a critical reappraisal"]. New York, NY [u.a.]: Kluwer Acad. / Plenum Publ. 2002. ISBN 0306467593.
Jump up ^ Knox, David; Schacht, Caroline. (2010) Choices in Relationships: An Introduction to Marriage and the Family. 11 ed. Cengage Learning. ISBN 9781111833220. p. 64.
Jump up ^ "What is intersex?". Intersex Society of North America. Retrieved 2013-11-18.
^ Jump up to: a b Children's right to physical integrity, Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly, Report Doc. 13297, 6 September 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b Guidelines to Promote and Protect the Enjoyment of All Human Rights by Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex (LGBTI) Persons, Foreign Affairs Council of the Council of the European Union, 24 June 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b Free & Equal campaign Fact Sheets, LGBT Rights: Frequently Asked Questions, Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, 2013, via UN Free & Equal.
^ Jump up to: a b Gender and Genetics, World Health Organization Genomics resource centre, 2013.
Jump up ^ "Intersex conditions". Intersex Society of North America. Retrieved 2007-12-08.
^ Jump up to: a b "How common is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America". Isna.org. Retrieved 2009-08-21.
^ Jump up to: a b Fausto-Sterling, Anne (2000). Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality. New York: Basic Books. ISBN 0-465-07713-7.
Jump up ^ Sax, Leonard (2002). "How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling.". Journal of Sex Research 39 (3): 174–178. doi:10.1080/00224490209552139. PMID 12476264.
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Jump up ^ Diamond, Milton; Linda, Watson (2004). "Androgen insensitivity syndrome and Klinefelter’s syndrome: sex and gender considerations". Child Adolesc Psychiatric Clin N Am (13). pp. 623–640.
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Jump up ^ W. S. Alexander M.D., O. D. Beresford M.D,. M.R.C.P. (1953) wrote about extensively about 'female pseudohermaphrodite' origins in utera, in his paper MASCULINIZATION OF OVARIAN ORIGIN, published An International Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Volume 60 Issue 2 pp. 252–258, April 1953.
Jump up ^ Am J Psychiatry 164:1499–1505, October 2007: Noted Mayo Clinic researchers J.M. Bostwick, MD, and Kari A Martin MD in A Man's Brain in an Ambiguous Body: A Case of Mistaken Gender wrote of the distinctions in male pseudohermaphrodite condition.
Jump up ^ Molina B Dayal, MD, MPH, Assistant Professor, Fertility and IVF Center, Division of Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, Medical Faculty Associates, George Washington University distingquishes what 'true hermaphroditism' encompases in their study of Ovotestis. Found here: http://www.emedicine.com/med/TOPIC1702.HTM
Jump up ^ Langman, Jan; Thomas Sadler (2006). Langman's medical embryology. Hagerstown, MD: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. p. 252. ISBN 0-7817-9485-4.
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Jump up ^ Dreger, Alice. ""Ambiguous sex"--or Ambivalent Medicine?". The Hastings Center Report. Retrieved 8 November 2013.
Jump up ^ "Klinefelter syndrome". U.S. National Library of Medicine. Retrieved 14 November 2013.
Jump up ^ Kirkpatrick, Martha (September 2003). "The Nature and Nurture of Gender". Psychoanalytic Inquiry 23 (4): 571. doi:10.1080/07351692309349051.
Jump up ^ Anne Fausto-Sterling in "Of Gender and Genitals", 2000
^ Jump up to: a b c Summary of Consensus Statement on Intersex Disorders and Their Management, Houk, Hughes, Ahmed, Lee, Writing Committee for the International Intersex Consensus Conference Participants, 2006, in Pediatrics, doi:10.1542.peds.2006-0737
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Jump up ^ Sarah M Creighton, Catherine L Minto, Stuart J Steele, "Cosmetic and anatomical outcomes following feminising childhood surgery for intersex conditions" (Journal of Pediatric & Adolescent Gynecology 2001; 14:142).
Jump up ^ Sarah M Creighton, Catherine L Minto, "Sexual function in adult women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome" (Journal of Pediatric & Adolescent Gynecology 2001; 14:144–145).
Jump up ^ Sarah M Creighton, Catherine Minto, "Managing intersex: Most vaginal surgery in childhood should be deferred" (BMJ 2001; 323:1264–1265).
Jump up ^ Catherine L Minto, Lih-Mei Liao, Christopher RJ Woodhouse, Phillip G Ransley, Sarah M Creighton, "The effect of clitoral surgery on sexual outcome in individuals who have intersex conditions with ambiguous genitalia: a cross-sectional study" (Lancet 2003; 361:1252–1257).
Jump up ^ Sarah Creighton, Philip Ransley, Patrick Duffy, Duncan Wilcox, Imran Mushtaq, Peter Cuckow, Christopher Woodhouse, Catherine Minto, Naomi Crouch, Richard Stanhope, Ieuan Hughes, Mehul Dattani, Peter Hindmarsh, Caroline Brain, John Achermann, Gerard Conway, Lih Mei Liao, Angela Barnicoat, and Les Perry, "Regarding the Consensus Statement on 21-Hydroxylase Deficiency from the Lawson Wilkins Pediatric Endocrine Society and The European Society for Paediatric Endocrinology" (Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2003; 88:3455).
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Jump up ^ Naomi S Crouch, Catherine L Minto, Lih-Mei Liao, Christopher R J Woodhouse, Sarah M Creighton, "Genital sensation after feminizing genitoplasty for congenital adrenal hyperplasia: a pilot study" (BJU International 2004; 93:135–138).
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^ Jump up to: a b "XXXY".
Jump up ^ Katrina Kazankazis, “Fixing Sex: Intersex, Medical Authority, and Lived Experience", 2008 (p. 222).
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^ Jump up to: a b c d e f g h Involuntary or coerced sterilisation of intersex people in Australia, Australian Senate Community Affairs Committee, October 2013.
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Jump up ^ (Chinese) 2013 第三屆世界陰陽人論壇宣言, Oii-Chinese, December 2013
Jump up ^ Human Rights Between the Sexes, Dan Christian Ghattas and Heinrich Böll Foundation, September 2013.
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Jump up ^ A preliminary study on the life situations of inter* individuals, OII Europe, 4 November 2013.
Jump up ^ Menschenrechte zwischen den Geschlechtern, Heinrich Böll Foundation, October 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b Statement on the Senate report Involuntary or coerced sterilisation of intersex people in Australia , Organisation Intersex International Australia, 29 October 2013.
Jump up ^ It's time to defend intersex rights, Morgan Carpenter at Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 15 November 2013.
Jump up ^ Australian Parliament committee releases intersex rights report, Gay Star News, 28 October 2013.
Jump up ^ Intersex advocates address findings of Senate Committee into involuntary sterilisation, Gay News Network, 28 October 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b Resolution 1952/2013, Provision version, Children’s right to physical integrity, Council of Europe, 1 October 2013
^ Jump up to: a b Report of the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, February 2013.
Jump up ^ Third submission to Senate Inquiry on involuntary sterilisation, Organisation Intersex International Australia, 6 June 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b Human Rights Investigation into the Medical “Normalization: of Intersex People, Human Rights Commission of the City and County of San Francisco, 2005, via Senate of Australia
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Jump up ^ We welcome the Senate Inquiry report on the Exposure Draft of the Human Rights and Anti-Discrimination Bill 2012, Organisation Intersex International Australia, 21 February 2013.
^ Jump up to: a b Government Gazette, Republic of South Africa, Vol. 487, Cape Town, 11 January 2006.
^ Jump up to: a b "X marks the spot for intersex Alex", The West Australian, 11 January 2003, via bodieslikeours.org.
Jump up ^ "Neither man nor woman", Sydney Morning Herald. 27 June 2010
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Jump up ^ "Intersex Mayor Elected in Australia", Advocate.com, December 9, 2011
Jump up ^ "Tony Briffa Of Australia's City Of Hobsons Bay Becomes World's First Intersex Mayor", HuffingtonPost.com, December 10, 2011
Jump up ^ "About Tony ... | cr Tony Briffa", Briffa.org, 2012
Jump up ^ "OII VP Tony Briffa to wed partner in NZ ceremony - Gay News Network", Gay News Network, 27 September 2013
^ Jump up to: a b c Deutsche Welle, "Third sex option on birth certificates", 1 November 2013
Jump up ^ Hida Viloria, The Advocate, "Op-ed: Germany’s Third-Gender Law Fails on Equality"
Jump up ^ OII Australia, "German proposals for a “third gender” on birth certificates miss the mark", 20 August 2013
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Jump up ^ Jaimie Veale - Academia.edu, "The prevalence of transsexualism among New Zealand passport holders, passports with an X sex descriptor are now available in New Zealand", 2008
Jump up ^ Frader, J; Alderson, P; Asch, A; Aspinall, C; Davis, D; Dreger, A; Edwards, J; Feder, EK; Frank, A; Hedley, LA; Kittay, E; Marsh, J; Miller, PS; Mouradian, W; Nelson, H; Parens, E (May 2004). "Health care professionals and intersex conditions". Arch. Pediatr. Adolesc. Med. 158 (5): 426–8. doi:10.1001/archpedi.158.5.426. PMID 15123472.
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Jump up ^ Matt Phil Carver (2013-05-31). "Meet Max, 16, a Golden Boy and intersex". Gay Star News. Retrieved 2013-07-05.
Jump up ^ Peeples, Jase (2012-11-16). "Week In Geek: DC Outs First Intersex Superhero, Minnie Mouse Works the Runway, and More". Gay.net. Retrieved 2013-07-05.
Jump up ^ "One in 2000". Retrieved 1 December 2012.
Jump up ^ Viloria, Hida (2013-06-12). "Op-ed: Intersex, the Final Coming-Out Frontier". Advocate.com. Retrieved 2013-07-05.
Jump up ^ by guccinij (2012-11-28). ""Emily Owens, M.D." recap (Ep. 6): God and Gender". AfterEllen.com. Retrieved 2013-07-05.
Jump up ^ Cooky, Cheryl; Shari L. Dworkin (Feb 2013). "Policing the Boundaries of Sex: A Critical Examination of Gender Verification and the Caster Semenya Controversy". Journal of Sex Research 50 (2): 111. doi:10.1080/00224499.2012.725488.
Jump up ^ Out of Bounds? A Critique of the New Policies on Hyperandrogenism in Elite Female Athletes, American Journal of Bioethics 12(7): 3–16, 2012, DOI: 10.1080/15265161.2012.680533.
Jump up ^ Well, Is She Or Isn't She?, SI, September 7, 2009
Jump up ^ Reexamining Rationales of “Fairness”: An Athlete and Insider's Perspective on the New Policies on Hyperandrogenism in Elite Female Athletes, American Journal of Bioethics, Volume 12, Issue 7, 2012.
Jump up ^ Is sex testing in the Olympics a fool's errand? Jon Bardin in Los Angeles Times, July 30, 2012
Jump up ^ Viloria, Hida. Letters to the Editor. The New York Times (June 23, 2012).
Jump up ^ "Defining male and female". Eurekalert.org. 2005-02-18. Retrieved 2009-08-21.
Jump up ^ ISNA. "What is intersex?".
^ Jump up to: a b "Rabbi Margaret Moers Wenig, D.D.". Hebrew Union College. Retrieved 2013-07-05.
Jump up ^ Spade, Joan Z.; Catherine G. Valentine (2011). The Kaleidoscope of Gender. Thousand Oaks, CA: Pine Forge Press. pp. 23–25.
Jump up ^ Spanier, Bonnie. From Molecules to Brains, Normal Science Supports Sexist Beliefs about Differences. Routledge. p. 369. ISBN 0-415-21357-6.
Jump up ^ Spanier, Bonnie (1995). "From Molecules to Brains, Normal Science Supports Sexist Beliefs About Differences" in Im/Partial Science. Bloomington and Indianapolis, IN: Indiana University Press. pp. 72–77.
References[edit]
Badgett, M.V. Lee; Brad Sears, Deborah Ho, Holning Lau (1 June 2007). "Bias in the Workplace: Consistent Evidence of Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Discrimination". The Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation Law and Public Policy: 1–31. Retrieved 2013-11-26.
Fausto-Sterling, Anne (2000). Sexing the body: gender politics and the construction of sexuality. New York, NY: Basic Books. pp. 44–11.
Lederman, Muriel (2001). From Molecules to Brains, Normal Science Supports Sexist Beliefs About Differences. London: Routledge. pp. 367–372.
Bibliography[edit]
Senate of Australia, Community Affairs References Committee, Involuntary or coerced sterilisation of intersex people in Australia, 25 October 2013.
Hazel Glenn Beh, Milton Diamond. 2000. An Emerging Ethical and Medical Dilemma: Should Physicians Perform Sex Assignment on Infants with Ambiguous Genitalia?. Michigan Journal of Gender & Law, Volume 7 (1): 1–63, 2000.
Blackless M, Charuvastra A, Derryck A, Fausto-Sterling A, Lauzanne K, Lee E (2000). "How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis". Am J Hum Biol 12 (2): 151–166. doi:10.1002/(SICI)1520-6300(200003/04)12:2<151::AID-AJHB1>3.0.CO;2-F. PMID 11534012.
Cooky, C., & Dworkin, S. L. (2013). Policing the Boundaries of Sex: A Critical Examination of Gender Verification and the Caster Semenya Controversy. Journal Of Sex Research, 50(2), 103-111
Georgiann Davis, DSD is a Perfectly Fine Term”: Reasserting Medical Authority through a Shift in Intersex Terminology, in PJ McGann, David J. Hutson (ed.) Sociology of Diagnosis (Advances in Medical Sociology, Volume 12), Emerald Group Publishing Limited, pp. 155–182, DOI: 10.1108/S1057-6290(2011)0000012012.
Dreger AD, Chase C, Sousa A, Gruppuso PA, Frader J; Chase; Sousa; Gruppuso; Frader (2005). "Changing the nomenclature/taxonomy for intersex: a scientific and clinical rationale". J. Pediatr. Endocrinol. Metab. 18 (8): 729–33. doi:10.1515/JPEM.2005.18.8.729. PMID 16200837.
Dreger, Alice. "Ambiguous sex"--or Ambivalent Medicine? The Hastings Center Report May/Jun 1998, Volume 28, Issue 3 Pages 24–35. http://www.isna.org/articles/ambivalent_medicine
Anne Fausto-Sterling, Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality, 2000.
Dan Christian Ghattas and Heinrich Böll Foundation, Human Rights Between the Sexes, September 2013.
Morgan Holmes (editor), Critical Intersex, Ashgate Publishing, October 2009.
Katrina Karkazis, Fixing Sex: Intersex, Medical Authority, and Lived Experience, 2008.
National Advisory Commission on Biomedical Ethics, Switzerland On the management of differences of sex development, Ethical issues relating to “intersexuality", Opinion No. 20/2012, November 2012.
San Francisco Human Rights Commission A Human Rights Investigation into the medical "normalization" of intersex people (PDF format via Senate of Australia)
Sax, Leonard. How common is intersex? A response to Anne Fausto-Sterling. J Sex Research 39:174-9, 2002
Schultheiss, Dirk; Herrmann, Thomas; Jonas, Udo (March 2006). "Early Photo-Illustration of a Hermaphrodite by the French Photographer and Artist Nadar in 1860". The Journal of Sexual Medicine 3 (2): 355–360. doi:10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00157.x. PMID 16490032.
"Klinefelter syndrome" U.S. National Library of Medicine Jan 2013. http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/klinefelter-syndrome
External links[edit]
Wikimedia Commons has media related to Intersexuality.
Accord Alliance
Advocates for Informed Choice (AIC)

List of sources and evidence.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I'd like to explain to you where the disconnect between what you're looking at and what you're thinking is happening. Tell me exactly what you think is evidence.

Let's start with the first fucking sentence in that wiki article:

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.[1][2]

[1] Money, John; Ehrhardt, Anke A. (1972). Man & Woman Boy & Girl. Differentiation and dimorphism of gender identity from conception to maturity. USA: The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0-8018-1405-7.
[2] Domurat Dreger, Alice (2001). Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex. USA: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-00189-3.

Here you have an indisputable acknowledgement of the existence of intersex people, thus putting your claims regarding our sources in peril.

Also:

Research[11] in the late 20th century indicates a growing medical consensus that diverse intersex bodies are normal—if relatively rare—forms of human biology. Milton Diamond, one of the most outspoken experts on matters affecting intersex people, stresses the importance of care in the selection of language related to such people.

[11] Pediatric gender assignment : a critical reappraisal ; [proceedings from a conference ... in Dallas in the spring of 1999 which was entitled "pediatric gender assignment - a critical reappraisal"]. New York, NY [u.a.]: Kluwer Acad. / Plenum Publ. 2002. ISBN 0306467593.

I'll leave this to you, Liri because, frankly, you have more patience with this monkeying around than I do.

The source is clear, but you know, NSGism.

[Des-Bal]

So you don't read the sources, I see.

Anyway, there:

Some individuals may be raised as a certain sex (male or female) but then identify with another later in life, while others may not identify themselves as either exclusively female or exclusively male. Research has shown gender identity of intersex individuals to be independent of sexual orientation, though some intersex conditions also affect an individual's sexual orientation. Recent legal and regulatory developments in Australia have distinguished "intersex status" from both gender identity and sexual orientation.

The problem isn't that I'm not reading it's that you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Demonstrate to me that a person can be either 1. Completely in between male and female in terms of gender, or 2. Completely removed from the gender continuum. What you've provided there says nothing of interest.

[Liriena]

Oh, I'm sorry. Does the article on intersex people fail to mention that intersex people exist, and probably reasons why they exist? Does the article on third genders fail to mention that non-binary genders exist and how they work?

Don't lie to my face. I may be dumb, but I'm not nearly dumb enough to fall for this sort of bullshit.

Yes,

Show me exactly where you think it says what you're thinking, what you're hoping it says. Show me your evidence. Don't link to a blind article. Don't bullshit me. Don't try to avoid confronting the bitter ugly truths about what you yourself believe. Show me EXACTLY why you believe what you do and make a case for why I should believe it.

The issue isn't that you're dumb it's that you're mistaking a desire to believe with evidence. I'd like to disabuse you of that, please let me. It will help me respect you.

Don't condescend me, Des-Bal. Right now, you have no moral or intellectual authority to condescend anyone on this thread.

[Kelinfort]

So you don't read the sources, I see.

Anyway, there:

The problem isn't that I'm not reading it's that you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Demonstrate to me that a person can be either 1. Completely in between male and female in terms of gender, or 2. Completely removed from the gender continuum. What you've provided there says nothing of interest.

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
http://androgyne.0catch.com/

[Liriena]

So you don't read the sources, I see.

Anyway, there:

The problem isn't that I'm not reading it's that you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Demonstrate to me that a person can be either 1. Completely in between male and female in terms of gender, or 2. Completely removed from the gender continuum. What you've provided there says nothing of interest.

Nana is quoting the article on intersex people, not non-binary genders. Since you didn't merely deny the existence of third genders, but also the existence of intersex people, both her and I are also addressing the latter. Therefor, what Nana has provided is most certainly of interest, unless you are going to deny that you ever refused to acknowledge that intersex people exist, which would be nothing short of hilarious, given how it's now a matter of public record that you did.

[Des-Bal]

Let's start with the first fucking sentence in that wiki article:

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.[1][2]

[1] Money, John; Ehrhardt, Anke A. (1972). Man & Woman Boy & Girl. Differentiation and dimorphism of gender identity from conception to maturity. USA: The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0-8018-1405-7.
[2] Domurat Dreger, Alice (2001). Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex. USA: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-00189-3.

Here you have an indisputable acknowledgement of the existence of intersex people, thus putting your claims regarding our sources in peril.

Also:

Research[11] in the late 20th century indicates a growing medical consensus that diverse intersex bodies are normal—if relatively rare—forms of human biology. Milton Diamond, one of the most outspoken experts on matters affecting intersex people, stresses the importance of care in the selection of language related to such people.

[11] Pediatric gender assignment : a critical reappraisal ; [proceedings from a conference ... in Dallas in the spring of 1999 which was entitled "pediatric gender assignment - a critical reappraisal"]. New York, NY [u.a.]: Kluwer Acad. / Plenum Publ. 2002. ISBN 0306467593.

I'm saying I go by karyotype and that looking at chromosomal variations beyond xy male and xx female as other than male or female as NOT being male or female is fucking stupid.

That thing I just said but imagine I said it again with my thumb and pointer finger resting against the bridge of my nose.

[Des-Bal]

Nana is quoting the article on intersex people, not non-binary genders. Since you didn't merely deny the existence of third genders, but also the existence of intersex people, both her and I are also addressing the latter. Therefor, what Nana has provided is most certainly of interest, unless you are going to deny that you ever refused to acknowledge that intersex people exist, which would be nothing short of hilarious, given how it's now a matter of public record that you did.

I'm saying the definition of intersex is silly. I'm saying I go by male female depending on chromosomes. If you've read anything else into that you've read poorly.

[Des-Bal]

Don't condescend me, Des-Bal. Right now, you have no moral or intellectual authority to condescend anyone on this thread.

You're linking wikipedia articles, refusing to make actual arguments, and avoiding any actual discussion like the plague. My boots are kicked up and I am enjoying the view from the high ground.

[Liriena]

Let's start with the first fucking sentence in that wiki article:

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.[1][2]

[1] Money, John; Ehrhardt, Anke A. (1972). Man & Woman Boy & Girl. Differentiation and dimorphism of gender identity from conception to maturity. USA: The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0-8018-1405-7.
[2] Domurat Dreger, Alice (2001). Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex. USA: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-00189-3.

Here you have an indisputable acknowledgement of the existence of intersex people, thus putting your claims regarding our sources in peril.

Also:

Research[11] in the late 20th century indicates a growing medical consensus that diverse intersex bodies are normal—if relatively rare—forms of human biology. Milton Diamond, one of the most outspoken experts on matters affecting intersex people, stresses the importance of care in the selection of language related to such people.

[11] Pediatric gender assignment : a critical reappraisal ; [proceedings from a conference ... in Dallas in the spring of 1999 which was entitled "pediatric gender assignment - a critical reappraisal"]. New York, NY [u.a.]: Kluwer Acad. / Plenum Publ. 2002. ISBN 0306467593.

I'm saying I go by karyotype and that looking at chromosomal variations beyond xy male and xx female as other than male or female as NOT being male or female is fucking stupid.

Well, that has got to be the most thorough, enlightening and researched commentary I've ever read on a discussion about matters related to social and natural sciences, gender and sex.

That thing I just said but imagine I said it again with my thumb and pointer finger resting against the bridge of my nose.

It's alright. I have long since pictured you as a textbook pedant.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I'm saying the definition of intersex is silly. I'm saying I go by male female depending on chromosomes. If you've read anything else into that you've read poorly.

It would make sense if we guessed people's chromosomes by looking at them like biometric machines identify individuals.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Nana is quoting the article on intersex people, not non-binary genders. Since you didn't merely deny the existence of third genders, but also the existence of intersex people, both her and I are also addressing the latter. Therefor, what Nana has provided is most certainly of interest, unless you are going to deny that you ever refused to acknowledge that intersex people exist, which would be nothing short of hilarious, given how it's now a matter of public record that you did.

I'm saying the definition of intersex is silly. I'm saying I go by male female depending on chromosomes. If you've read anything else into that you've read poorly.

It isn't. You may find it silly, but your convictions hardly count here.

And we've told you that there are people who identify as neither, either psychologically or physically (as per the article I cited to you, more than once). Their gender is X, neither male nor female. They exist.

[Des-Bal]

It would make sense if we guessed people's chromosomes by looking at them like biometric machines identify individuals.

I do. I assume physical appearance matches the most common genotype sometimes I'm wrong but it's rare.