What is the Best Form of Communism?

[Socialist Czechia]

Merely figureheads to look nice. Valid.

Some Catholic priests in Latin America have suffered torture and death for the proletarian cause, at the hands of military dictatorships. The red flag is coloured by the blood of many martyrs, of all faiths.

As I said before, my personal distaste from so called communists-believing-in-gods is more about philosophy, and that is different question from nationalizing church's property.

To be Communist for me is same as to be Materialist. If you are Materialist, you cannot be religious in classical terms as it is understand to be religious. That's contradiction.

Or in other words, if you believe in talking dead guy, you are not materialist, so you are not marxist, therefore you are not Communist. Not true communist, at least. nuff said.

[Vazdania]

Some Catholic priests in Latin America have suffered torture and death for the proletarian cause, at the hands of military dictatorships. The red flag is coloured by the blood of many martyrs, of all faiths.

As I said before, my personal distaste from so called communists-believing-in-gods is more about philosophy, and that is different question from nationalizing church's property.

To be Communist for me is same as to be Materialist. If you are Materialist, you cannot be religious in classical terms as it is understand to be religious. That's contradiction.

Or in other words, if you believe in talking dead guy, you are not materialist, so you are not marxist, therefore you are not Communist. Not true communist, at least. nuff said.

Oh....so you're a materialist....gotchaaa......GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!

[McCatsonia]

Voluntary communes existing within capitalist state society.

This.

[Cyyro]

I'm getting the sense that you basically want religion to be treated similar to how it was under Hoxhaist Albania.

Which was a terrible, terrible experiment that must never be repeated.

Do you have a problem with getting rid of a medieval justice system that treated women as property, drastically increasing the literacy rate, as well as life-expectancy? Because all those happened in Hoxhaist Albania.

America has been Protestant ever since its first colonies and it took over 100 years for women to get suffrage.

[Constantinopolis]

Some Catholic priests in Latin America have suffered torture and death for the proletarian cause, at the hands of military dictatorships. The red flag is coloured by the blood of many martyrs, of all faiths.

As I said before, my personal distaste from so called communists-believing-in-gods is more about philosophy, and that is different question from nationalizing church's property.

To be Communist for me is same as to be Materialist. If you are Materialist, you cannot be religious in classical terms as it is understand to be religious. That's contradiction.

Or in other words, if you believe in talking dead guy, you are not materialist, so you are not marxist, therefore you are not Communist. Not true communist, at least. nuff said.

I have some obvious philosophical disagreements with pure Materialism, yes, although I completely agree with Historical Materialism as a generally accurate description of human history in practice. Historical Materialism doesn't not actually require a lack of belief in gods, it only requires a lack of belief in gods who control history. And I don't believe God controls history.

But the more important question is, should we be arguing about the finer details of philosophy when we share the same political vision? And should we criticize martyrs of the working class for their philosophical views? No.

[Constantinopolis]

By the way, on the issue of Church property, I believe it should be collectivized, rather than nationalized. That is to say, the Church should legally be treated as a commune (or a collective farm), with its property being the collective property of its members.

Of course, like all other organizations and individuals, it should never be allowed to exploit people by hiring wage labour, lending money at interest, or charging rent.

[Socialist Czechia]

I am from already Atheist society, what is, by my opinion, example for every other nation, so if there will be socialist republic and you will try to built Orthodox temple, we would be enemies.
In other case, I will just keep criticise you internationally to be nice on parasitic and destructive element of society, covered in blood of all people.

Are you from the Czech Republic? From the statistics I've seen, it's one of the most atheist societies in Europe, yeah... which means that a struggle against religion is pointless, since the "enemy", for the most part, doesn't exist.

Even if you think religion is bad, you must admit that spending energy to fight against it - and making enemies like myself along the way, who should be your allies instead - is simply counter-productive.

I mean, for example, I think homeopathy is an insidious lie that deceives people and ruins their health and lives. Am I going to make a political issue out of that? Of course not. I'm not going to try to fight people who believe in homeopathy. It's counter-productive, and they should have the freedom to be wrong if they wish.

Local communist party is so much Marxist-Leninist as it is possible, still calling themselves proudly Communist Party, it's full of hard-liners, oldschool hardcore atheists, even amongst youngest members and it's virtually impossible there imagine believer in god to be communist.

This argument is valid. But behind homeopathy there is no ancient organisation of inhuman, genocidal, greedy religious nuts.
Despite fact, that today they try to look nice, improved and sympathetic for the first time in history.

You want to believe what sounds kick-assing? What about...

Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the community are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.

Or to sounds less mysterious...

If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself.

[Socialist Czechia]

By the way, on the issue of Church property, I believe it should be collectivized, rather than nationalized. That is to say, the Church should legally be treated as a commune (or a collective farm), with its property being the collective property of its members.

Of course, like all other organizations and individuals, it should never be allowed to exploit people by hiring wage labour, lending money at interest, or charging rent.

Well, I suppose that can be possible in countries where more drastic measures would cause contrarevolution and where Church has functional enterprises.

But there are almost none.

There in my country, today, we only try to don't let already 60 years nationalized property to go back to Pope's claws. People are seriously pissed off because of that. Even many right-wing dudes, what i know is almost impossible to imagine.

[Arumdaum]

Do you have a problem with getting rid of a medieval justice system that treated women as property, drastically increasing the literacy rate, as well as life-expectancy? Because all those happened in Hoxhaist Albania.

America has been Protestant ever since its first colonies and it took over 100 years for women to get suffrage.

America existed before colonialism.

[Constantinopolis]

Despite fact, that today they try to look nice, improved and sympathetic for the first time in history.

But it's not the first time. There is a long list of historical examples of religious organizations acting on the side of the oppressed. The Christian Church itself started out as an illegal organization of the oppressed people in the Roman Empire, and Engels pointed out the similarities between early Christianity and the communist movement.

It's hard to see today, but the Orthodox Church, in its organizational structure, maintains vestiges of a democratic centralist vanguard. I recognize them for what they are because I'm a Leninist, but most Orthodox people, of course, don't notice this. And why do we say to God, before Communion, that "we will not speak of Your mysteries to Your enemies"? No priest has been able to explain this to me, but I know what it is. It's an oath of secrecy for an illegal underground organization. We still say it, although most have forgotten what it meant.

You want to believe what sounds kick-assing? What about...

Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the community are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.

But I already believe that. It sounds exactly like something a Christian would say. Abandon the self and the passions of the flesh, focus on the soul and not the body, love your neighbor as yourself and live a life of service to others.

Local communist party is so much Marxist-Leninist as it is possible, still calling themselves proudly Communist Party, it's full of hard-liners, oldschool hardcore atheists, even amongst youngest members and it's virtually impossible there imagine believer in god to be communist.

I've never spoken to a Czech communist before, but I've always admired the KSČM from a distance, for its determination and loyalty to the cause. The largest communist party in Eastern Europe outside the former USSR! When so many other party members all across Eastern Europe turned into abject traitors after 1990, forming capitalist parties and enriching themselves from the people's property, most of the comrades in the Czech Republic held strong, kept the party alive, and continued to get between 10% and 20% of the vote all the way up to the present day. And in the face of intense anti-communism and persecution, no less! I remember about ten (?) years ago, when the Czech government wanted to ban the youth wing of the Communist Party because it advocated public ownership of the means of production... They're not even hiding the fact that they want to make it illegal to criticize capitalism! And they complain about our censorship, the hypocrites.

By the way, I'm not one to demand vengeance, usually, but former Communist Party members who enriched themselves after 1990 should be lined up against a wall and shot. Other capitalists have an excuse - they didn't know any better, they were raised in a culture in which profit is considered normal, and so on. But former CP members have no excuse. They knew. They knew about exploitation. They swore to uphold socialism, to defend the people's property. Instead they stole it and built themselves corporate empires on the blood and tears of the working class. They are the most disgusting kind of traitors. God may forgive them; I won't.

Well, I suppose that can be possible in countries where more drastic measures would cause contrarevolution and where Church has functional enterprises.

But there are almost none.

There in my country, today, we only try to don't let already 60 years nationalized property to go back to Pope's claws. People are seriously pissed off because of that. Even many right-wing dudes, what i know is almost impossible to imagine.

Oh, I wasn't thinking about enterprises. I certainly don't think the Church - collectivized or otherwise - should be involved in non-religious economic activities. Obviously there should be no Church-owned industrial enterprises or agricultural land or anything like that (and certainly not banks, like the Vatican has now). Those should all be nationalized.

What the Church should continue to own, as a collectivized institution, is the property that is actually being used for religious purposes: the church buildings themselves, any other auxiliary and associated buildings (in some places the Church owns the house where the priest lives, for example), Church cemeteries, religious book publishers, religious mass-media outlets, and so on.

Most of all, under no circumstances should churches, temples, or any other worship buildings be forcibly converted to non-religious uses. That is very wrong, and it's one of the few things that Lenin did that I strongly oppose.

[Herrebrugh]

I like to stay with the core, so Marxism.

[Herrebrugh]

This thread is indicative of the problem with communism. Everyone is ignoring the most useful form: Juche communism.

Juche isn't communism. It doesn't even pretend to be communism.

[GraySoap]

This thread is indicative of the problem with communism. Everyone is ignoring the most useful form: Juche communism.

Juche isn't communism. It doesn't even pretend to be communism.

Excuse me, socialism.

[Herrebrugh]

Juche isn't communism. It doesn't even pretend to be communism.

Excuse me, socialism.

That's not a very bright mistake to make as supposed supporter of Juche.

[Inquilabstan]

Juche isn't communism. It doesn't even pretend to be communism.

Excuse me, socialism.

Ever heard of the "Burmese Way to Socialism?"

[GraySoap]

All other forms of western socialism are less applicable to Korean national history than Juche. Other struggling nations would benefit from learning of the methods of Juche to develop socialism that works for their situation. Like Hoxha, Tito, Kim, Mao, and Lenin before them, socialism must be adapted to the current situation. Capitalist nations need adopt a different method than feudalistic societies.

[Herrebrugh]

All other forms of western socialism are less applicable to Korean national history than Juche. Other struggling nations would benefit from learning of the methods of Juche to develop socialism that works for their situation. Like Hoxha, Tito, Kim, Mao, and Lenin before them, socialism must be adapted to the current situation. Capitalist nations need adopt a different method than feudalistic societies.

Juche is an elitist, feudalist and monarchist (though, those three are very much related anyway) ideology, ensuring the eternal rule of the Kim-family and repressing any form of protest through a policy of fear. It's also extremely classist to its very core, looking at songbun, which is a fundamental part of the Chosun state designed by Kim Il-sung himself, which devides the populace into three categories, namely friendly, loyal and enemy forces. This is done by looking at family background (for example, someone with a Japanese background will almost always have bad songbun, an important exemption being Ko Young-hee, who is the mother of the present "Dear Respected" Kim Jong-un, and born in Osaka). It is also a lot easier to go down the steps of songbun than up.

There is absolutely nothing, and I repeat, nothing socialist about Juche.

[GraySoap]

There is absolutely nothing, and I repeat, nothing socialist about Juche.

You are entitled to your opinion. Juche is most applicable socialism for Korean peoples and history.

[Herrebrugh]

There is absolutely nothing, and I repeat, nothing socialist about Juche.

You are entitled to your opinion. Juche is most applicable socialism for Korean peoples and history.

I don't think you read this part:

"Juche is an elitist, feudalist and monarchist (though, those three are very much related anyway) ideology, ensuring the eternal rule of the Kim-family and repressing any form of protest through a policy of fear. It's also extremely classist to its very core, looking at songbun, which is a fundamental part of the Chosun state designed by Kim Il-sung himself, which devides the populace into three categories, namely friendly, loyal and enemy forces. This is done by looking at family background (for example, someone with a Japanese background will almost always have bad songbun, an important exemption being Ko Young-hee, who is the mother of the present "Dear Respected" Kim Jong-un, and born in Osaka). It is also a lot easier to go down the steps of songbun than up."

[GraySoap]

You are entitled to your opinion. Juche is most applicable socialism for Korean peoples and history.

I don't think you read this part:

"Juche is an elitist, feudalist and monarchist (though, those three are very much related anyway) ideology, ensuring the eternal rule of the Kim-family and repressing any form of protest through a policy of fear. It's also extremely classist to its very core, looking at songbun, which is a fundamental part of the Chosun state designed by Kim Il-sung himself, which devides the populace into three categories, namely friendly, loyal and enemy forces. This is done by looking at family background (for example, someone with a Japanese background will almost always have bad songbun, an important exemption being Ko Young-hee, who is the mother of the present "Dear Respected" Kim Jong-un, and born in Osaka). It is also a lot easier to go down the steps of songbun than up."

But then why is Stalinism on here? Ethnicities deported to Kazakhstan or the Far East? Or Leninism with its New Economic Policy? All follow tenets of Marxism, but made practical to the nation and situation at hand.

[Herrebrugh]

I don't think you read this part:

"Juche is an elitist, feudalist and monarchist (though, those three are very much related anyway) ideology, ensuring the eternal rule of the Kim-family and repressing any form of protest through a policy of fear. It's also extremely classist to its very core, looking at songbun, which is a fundamental part of the Chosun state designed by Kim Il-sung himself, which devides the populace into three categories, namely friendly, loyal and enemy forces. This is done by looking at family background (for example, someone with a Japanese background will almost always have bad songbun, an important exemption being Ko Young-hee, who is the mother of the present "Dear Respected" Kim Jong-un, and born in Osaka). It is also a lot easier to go down the steps of songbun than up."

But then why is Stalinism on here? Ethnicities deported to Kazakhstan or the Far East? Or Leninism with its New Economic Policy? All follow tenets of Marxism, but made practical to the nation and situation at hand.

You have refuted absolutely nothing of what I've written. Care to try again? (Tip: you can't, because this is how Juche works, and that goes contrary to how socialism works or is supposed to work, and because you really don't know jack of what Juche is, both in ideological perspective and in reality).

[Kiribati-Tarawa]

No Communism at all is the best form of Communism. However, if I had to choose, I would say Gorbachev had the best Communist policies, because they were the least totalitarian of all the various Communistic forms of government. However, his policies of reform and openness also caused the downfall of the Soviet Union, which comes to show how Communism cannot truly exist without creating a police state, thus making it the worst form of government ever conceived.

[Dejanic]

No such thing as a form of Communism, all of the poll options are simply Marxist ideologies/methods to reaching Communism (a classless stateless moneyless world). Overall I'd say Left-Communism (of the Italian variety) or plain classical Marxism would be the "best" Marxist ideology, where as Eurocommunism/Stalinism/Maoism/Juche are shitty left-capitalist ideologies that belong in a special pit in hell.

Whilst I respect Trotsky the man, "Trotskyism" is largely reformist, if you look at the manifesto of Labour and a typical Trot party you'll think you're seeing double.

[CTALNH]

Marxism Leninism Stalinism

[Nervium]

Of all of them, anarcho-communism sounds fun.