Clegg V Farage: EU Debate

[Marcurix]

I thought they cheered for Clegg more.

I suspect anyone you ask will tell you the crowd was biased against whichever debater they happen to support themselves.

That's the problem.
This was a wash. Noone won, not even on the facts.
That makes me angry at Clegg. This should have been the beginning of the end for the Euroskeptics, and he just messed it up.

This debate was never going to be the "beginning of the end" for either side. As Arch said a few pages back it was always just going to reinforce peoples beliefs, rather than change them.

Clegg didn't do a bad job, but neither did Farage. Both played the traditional tune and went from there.

[Old Tyrannia]

"I want us to be Great Britain, not little England." Very clever soundbite right there from Mr. Clegg, appealing to patriotic Scots, Welshmen and the Northern Irish. UKIP does suffer from being portrayed as an English, not British, party. Farage, meanwhile, lost me when he started rambling about European imperialism in the Ukraine. Yeah, sure, because it's German and French troops on the streets of Sevastopol. Clegg argued well, but not well enough to change my mostly negative opinion on the EU.

Not really. I don't want to be Great Britain. I want to be Wales.

I said patriotic Welshmen, as in British patriots, not misguided Welsh nationalists.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Bless the xenophobic "anti-multiculturalism" Euroskeptics' pro-putino-authoritarian stupidity.

[Old Tyrannia]

Bless the xenophobic "anti-multiculturalism" Euroskeptics' pro-putino-authoritarian stupidity.

Yes, because all Eurosceptics are xenophobic authoritarians who support Putin.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Bless the xenophobic "anti-multiculturalism" Euroskeptics' pro-putino-authoritarian stupidity.

Yes, because all Eurosceptics are xenophobic authoritarians who support Putin.

Note how I qualified xenophobic anti-multiculturalism first and Euroskeptics later, rather than reverse.

I tagged an specific group. A group that is the most vocal in the bands, so those that are opposite to them can more easily profit.

[Old Tyrannia]

Yes, because all Eurosceptics are xenophobic authoritarians who support Putin.

Note how I qualified xenophobic anti-multiculturalism first and Euroskeptics later, rather than reverse.

I tagged an specific group. A group that is the most vocal in the bands, so those that are opposite to them can more easily profit.

Not all anti-multiculturalist Eurosceptics are pro-Putin xenophobic authoritarians, either.

[United Kingdom of Kent]

Just because he questioned some of the actions of the EU towards the crisis does not equate to Farage being pro Putin.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Both of you are far too picky.

Of course I talked about the general public impression of the Europe-hater kind's viewpoint. The stereotype. That's what counts.

[Old Tyrannia]

Both of you are far too picky.

Of course I talked about the general public impression of the Europe-hater kind's viewpoint. The stereotype. That's what counts.

What would a Brazilian know about the general public impression of "Europe-haters" in the UK?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Both of you are far too picky.

Of course I talked about the general public impression of the Europe-hater kind's viewpoint. The stereotype. That's what counts.

What would a Brazilian know about the general public impression of "Europe-haters" in the UK?

I'm not such a newbie and I'm not so ill-informed.

[Empire of Vlissingen]

Farage will win, the EU is bad the UK should leave the EU and make free trade deals with nations.

[Old Tyrannia]

What would a Brazilian know about the general public impression of "Europe-haters" in the UK?

I'm not such a newbie and I'm not so ill-informed.

I'm aware you're not. I'm just suggesting you don't really have much of a grasp on public sentiment here in Great Britain.

[United Kingdom of Kent]

What would a Brazilian know about the general public impression of "Europe-haters" in the UK?

I'm not such a newbie and I'm not so ill-informed.

Well if you're not ill-informed your doing a pretty awful job of demonstrating it. That's far from the "general" impression of eurosceptics in Britain.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I dunno. NSG's Brits seem to label the UKIP as nutters worse than American Republicans. Even euroskeptic and/or right-wing ones.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

All those Europeans supporting Putinism in the internet. They must be known, have their irl platforms and public, and disliked.

[Old Tyrannia]

I dunno. NSG's Brits seem to label the UKIP as nutters worse than American Republicans. Even euroskeptic and/or right-wing ones.

Well, there's your problem right there. You're judging general public opinion in Britain based on the general opinion of British people in NationStates General. The gulf between the two makes the Grand Canyon look like a crack in the pavement; otherwise we wouldn't have a Conservative Prime Minister. Also, you're conflating Euroscepticism in general with support for UKIP. Did you know that the Green Party, who are the leftiest lefties in Westminster, are also Eurosceptics? As are many members of Labour and the Conservative Party.

[The Archregimancy]

Did you know that the Green Party, who are the leftiest lefties in Westminster, are also Eurosceptics? As are many members of Labour and the Conservative Party.

I think that's a mischaracterisation of the Green Party's position.

As I understand it, the Green Party of England and Wales (I don't know about the pro-independence Scottish party, which is a separate organisation) wants the UK to remain in the EU, but argues for unspecified significant reform of EU institutions. Their official party policy statement on Europe is:

The Green Party wants a reformed Europe with governing institutions designed to resist capture by corporations and instead work democratically and cooperatively in the public interest. We will promote self-determination of nations and regions acting independently on local issues, whilst protecting the ability to cooperate on global issues that affect us all, like fisheries protection, climate change or human rights.

http://greenparty.org.uk/policies.html

Like all official party statements, it's a bit waffly, but it's not notably Eurosceptic, and the lack of any mention of a referendum is significant. Prior to last night's debate, the current Green Party leader described her party as a "critical friend of the European Union".

A much better example of strong left of centre opposition to the EU would have been the recently deceased Tony Benn.

[Ostroeuropa]

To those in favor of a referendum, a question:

Would you allow British Citizens currently living abroad in the EU to vote in such a referendum?
They have just as much at stake, and may be forced out of their homes by the result. I'd argue they must be included for a referendum to hold legitimacy.

[L Ron Cupboard]

I can't help feeling that these sorts of debates are bad for democracy, leading to a shallow evaluation based on the personalities of candidates rather than on policies.

[Estormo]

I am siding with Farage. He has the patriotism that Brits never have, if anything, he is saving their reputation. So yeah, go Farage.

[Ostroeuropa]

I can't help feeling that these sorts of debates are bad for democracy, leading to a shallow evaluation based on the personalities of candidates rather than on policies.

I think in Britain we've slowly evolved past the need to have politicians dictate to us our policy, or to have any meaning in debate whatsoever.
We mostly watch them, get angry, and shout at the television why they are wrong, to which someone else in the room argues with you on, saying they are wrong for entirely different reasons.
They provoke the public into debating with itself.
Akin to if US politicians regularly and consistently argued that islamo-creationism must be taught in schools, because this country was founded on Islamic values.
Everybody fucking hates that idea, but it'll get us arguing about WHY we hate it.

It's a shame we havn't managed to phase the wankers out of the voting process yet though, they still stick around for that.

The parties are basically Establishment at this point. Whoever you vote for, the government wins. So why not pick the one who's personality isn't incredibly fucking annoying? The policies will all stay the same anyway.

[Estormo]

I dunno. NSG's Brits seem to label the UKIP as nutters worse than American Republicans. Even euroskeptic and/or right-wing ones.

Most on NSG are Centre-Left to Left, so most won`t like them. But I know some who do.

[Estormo]

Both of you are far too picky.

Of course I talked about the general public impression of the Europe-hater kind's viewpoint. The stereotype. That's what counts.

Of course, no one know more about the EU than a Brazilian.

[Ostroeuropa]

I can't help feeling that these sorts of debates are bad for democracy, leading to a shallow evaluation based on the personalities of candidates rather than on policies.

I think in Britain we've slowly evolved past the need to have politicians dictate to us our policy, or to have any meaning in debate whatsoever.
We mostly watch them, get angry, and shout at the television why they are wrong, to which someone else in the room argues with you on, saying they are wrong for entirely different reasons.
They provoke the public into debating with itself.
Akin to if US politicians regularly and consistently argued that islamo-creationism must be taught in schools, because this country was founded on Islamic values.
Everybody fucking hates that idea, but it'll get us arguing about WHY we hate it.

It's a shame we havn't managed to phase the wankers out of the voting process yet though, they still stick around for that.

The parties are basically Establishment at this point. Whoever you vote for, the government wins. So why not pick the one who's personality isn't incredibly fucking annoying? The policies will all stay the same anyway.

For an actual US example of the British Politician System of provoking the public into debating with itself by proposing extremely fucking bad ideas that nobody likes, see Obamacare.
Which provoked a debate between people who shouted "JUST NATIONALIZE IT ALREADY!" at the television and Free Marketeers.

We get a debate, a bad law is passed, and everybody loses.
But maybe we get to find out who had the better argument in the meantime. Maybe.
If they don't erect four different monuments to their own incompetence and insanity before we reach a conclusion and drop the debate to move onto another one.

[Estormo]

What would a Brazilian know about the general public impression of "Europe-haters" in the UK?

I'm not such a newbie and I'm not so ill-informed.

Then stop looking like you are !