Clegg V Farage: EU Debate

[Benuty]

Neither or them considering they seem to be more into politics than their day job.

[Orla]

I am so shocked that Farage is beating Clegg on the poll up there, on NSG, one would expect a landslide for Clegg. Anyway, I support Clegg. The UKIP seem to be xenophobic, and I do not like those who are xenophobic.

[Benuty]

I am so shocked that Farage is beating Clegg on the poll up there, on NSG, one would expect a landslide for Clegg. Anyway, I support Clegg. The UKIP seem to be xenophobic, and I do not like those who are xenophobic.

When you can insult a man by calling him "as charismatic as that of a damp rag" then by far I somewhat like Farage. Before he gets into the xenophobic homeopathic nonsense which makes Cleggs beliefs seem reasonable.

[Ostroeuropa]

I am so shocked that Farage is beating Clegg on the poll up there, on NSG, one would expect a landslide for Clegg. Anyway, I support Clegg. The UKIP seem to be xenophobic, and I do not like those who are xenophobic.

When you can insult a man by calling him "as charismatic as that of a damp rag" then by far I somewhat like Farage. Before he gets into the xenophobic homeopathic nonsense which makes Cleggs beliefs seem reasonable.

Clegg believes Clegg should be in power. That is the sum total of his beliefs. That is the sum total of all the major parties beliefs.
The faustian pact that the British Public have with their political class is basically that, provided they don't fuck things up too much and basically do what we tell them (unless it's too inconvenient for their grip on power, then we might throw a bit of a tantrum instead but basically get over it), we don't expect them to actually have principles.

Whenever someone like Farage turns up who appears to actually believe in shit, some of it crazy shit (because people who believe in shit tend to have one or two batshit beliefs.) everyone else goes "Oh fuck no." and backs the status quo. Even though they hate the status quo.
The Government is basically a decision by the British to elect people without any principles or morality whatsoever, to save us from people with crazy principles and backward morality.
Whether this is working out or not is up for debate.

[Yitzchak Winternitz]

I am so shocked that Farage is beating Clegg on the poll up there, on NSG, one would expect a landslide for Clegg. Anyway, I support Clegg. The UKIP seem to be xenophobic, and I do not like those who are xenophobic.

Actually I'm shocked that Clegg is that high up on the poll.

[Estormo]

Nigel and his party are the only ones who truly want to give the British public a referendum on EU membership. It's the EU which is undemocratic.

[Greater-London]

After watching it I thought Nigel handled himself better than Nick.

The problem is that as Mr Clegg kept on giving politicians answers and never answered a question straight, love him or loathe him Mr Farage didn't beat around the bush.

The main problem I think that Nick and the entire Pro EU brigade has is that they deny things about the EU, instead of defending it.

For instance we have free movement of people in the EU, this is a good thing. So when UKIP say " X Million Europeans could come to the UK" the answer is yes they could, but you should argue how this isn't a problem rather than flat out denying it.

You can't just continually attack UKIP for "making things up" or "scaremongering" you need to address what they say and point out why its not a problem or how it can be rectified whilst being a member of the EU.

[Ostroeuropa]

After watching it I thought Nigel handled himself better than Nick.

The problem is that as Mr Clegg kept on giving politicians answers and never answered a question straight, love him or loathe him Mr Farage didn't beat around the bush.

The main problem I think that Nick and the entire Pro EU brigade has is that they deny things about the EU, instead of defending it.

For instance we have free movement of people in the EU, this is a good thing. So when UKIP say " X Million Europeans could come to the UK" the answer is yes they could, but you should argue how this isn't a problem rather than flat out denying it.

You can't just continually attack UKIP for "making things up" or "scaremongering" you need to address what they say and point out why its not a problem or how it can be rectified whilst being a member of the EU.

I agree.
I found Nigel's point of "495 million people can come to the UK, yes or no" to be ridiculous.
It warranted the response
"Yes, 495 million people can come to the UK. The BNP can win a suprise snap election in 3 months. The aliens can arrive in cardiff. I can have sex with your mother. Only one of these things is likely, however."
But political "Your momma" jokes probably wouldn't go down well.

[Scholmeria]

Both of you are far too picky.

Of course I talked about the general public impression of the Europe-hater kind's viewpoint. The stereotype. That's what counts.

Of course, no one know more about the EU than a Brazilian.

I am in favour to let some non-european countries into the EU.

[Greater-London]

I am in favour to let some non-european countries into the EU.

Out of curiosity which ones? and are these countries viable candidates for EU expansion, do they fit the EU's criteria for membership?

[The Scientific States]

I watched the debate. I think Clegg did a really good job, but Farage was definitely the more charismatic of the two.

[Divair2]

Of course, no one know more about the EU than a Brazilian.

I am in favour to let some non-european countries into the EU.

It's called the EUROPEAN Union. For EUROPEANS. Not foreigners.

[Greater-London]

I watched the debate. I think Clegg did a really good job, but Farage was definitely the more charismatic of the two.

Really? I think he was way to polished it just seemed incredibly rehearsed. I also find the use of the first name thing (which nigel did to) incredibly false, its just trying too hard.

He also did the typical Europhile thing where instead of taking something that the EU does/supports and defending it he just denied that its EU policy. Which makes moderate Eurosceptics like myself all the more sceptical.

[Greater-London]

It's called the EUROPEAN Union. For EUROPEANS. Not foreigners.

To be fair it would probably have to re-brand.

A name which showed that it wasn't purely European and the direction politically it was going

Perhaps we could call it the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

[Divair2]

It's called the EUROPEAN Union. For EUROPEANS. Not foreigners.

To be fair it would probably have to re-brand.

A name which showed that it wasn't purely European and the direction politically it was going

Perhaps we could call it the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

More like GREATER YUROP

[Wolfmanne]

I dunno. NSG's Brits seem to label the UKIP as nutters worse than American Republicans. Even euroskeptic and/or right-wing ones.

NSG also notably has a leftist bias. Speaking as one of the few British Tories on the site, I don't particularly mind UKIP, the only problem I really have is the fact that they are more wrong than the Tories, especially on the EU.

[Pesda]

Not really. I don't want to be Great Britain. I want to be Wales.

I said patriotic Welshmen, as in British patriots, not misguided Welsh nationalists.

Call me a misguided Welsh nationalist if you want, but that won't me any less of a Welsh patriot. You don't have to be a patriotic Briton to be a patriotic Welshman. Nick saying that he wants to be Great Britain doesn't really appeal to me.

[The Scientific States]

I watched the debate. I think Clegg did a really good job, but Farage was definitely the more charismatic of the two.

Really? I think he was way to polished it just seemed incredibly rehearsed. I also find the use of the first name thing (which nigel did to) incredibly false, its just trying too hard.

He also did the typical Europhile thing where instead of taking something that the EU does/supports and defending it he just denied that its EU policy. Which makes moderate Eurosceptics like myself all the more sceptical.

His statements were incredibly false, but he seemed charismatic. The people who watched the debate payed less attention to facts.

[Angleter]

Really? I think he was way to polished it just seemed incredibly rehearsed. I also find the use of the first name thing (which nigel did to) incredibly false, its just trying too hard.

He also did the typical Europhile thing where instead of taking something that the EU does/supports and defending it he just denied that its EU policy. Which makes moderate Eurosceptics like myself all the more sceptical.

His statements were incredibly false, but he seemed charismatic. The people who watched the debate payed less attention to facts.

I'm struggling with this. Clegg was demolished - although nowhere near as much as he should have - on the 'three million jobs' myth. His 'joke' about the Romanians and Bulgarians was disingenuous (together, they have a population of 28.6 million - this rounds up to 29 million anyway, is easily taken over the 29 million mark by the ~900,000 Moldovans who have Romanian passports, and as Farage said does not include the Romanians and Bulgarians already in diaspora across the EU). Rather than say that free movement of people in the EU is A Thing, he became painfully evasive and started to talk about benefits. This fact-check (Open Europe are probably closest to David Cameron's position on the EU, for the record) suggests that both were far from spot-on with the facts and that neither was particularly better than the other.

[Wolfmanne]

His statements were incredibly false, but he seemed charismatic. The people who watched the debate payed less attention to facts.

I'm struggling with this. Clegg was demolished - although nowhere near as much as he should have - on the 'three million jobs' myth. His 'joke' about the Romanians and Bulgarians was disingenuous (together, they have a population of 28.6 million - this rounds up to 29 million anyway, is easily taken over the 29 million mark by the ~900,000 Moldovans who have Romanian passports, and as Farage said does not include the Romanians and Bulgarians already in diaspora across the EU). Rather than say that free movement of people in the EU is A Thing, he became painfully evasive and started to talk about benefits. This fact-check (Open Europe are probably closest to David Cameron's position on the EU, for the record) suggests that both were far from spot-on with the facts and that neither was particularly better than the other.

Angleter is right on Open Europe; they are a great source.

[Estormo]

Farage won. Even the Guardian talked about the polls.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ope-winner

[Geilinor]

I'd like to reiterate my long-standing prediction that Clegg will win in terms of having facts and logic on his side, and Farage will win in terms of getting people angry at foreigners.

Kind of like Bill Nye vs. that creationist guy, but EU-style.

[Geilinor]

After watching it I thought Nigel handled himself better than Nick.

The problem is that as Mr Clegg kept on giving politicians answers and never answered a question straight, love him or loathe him Mr Farage didn't beat around the bush.

The main problem I think that Nick and the entire Pro EU brigade has is that they deny things about the EU, instead of defending it.

For instance we have free movement of people in the EU, this is a good thing. So when UKIP say " X Million Europeans could come to the UK" the answer is yes they could, but you should argue how this isn't a problem rather than flat out denying it.

You can't just continually attack UKIP for "making things up" or "scaremongering" you need to address what they say and point out why its not a problem or how it can be rectified whilst being a member of the EU.

I agree.
I found Nigel's point of "495 million people can come to the UK, yes or no" to be ridiculous.

This^. That many people may be eligible to come to the UK, but they aren't going to flood in like a river. They have a variety of choices if they want to go to another EU country.

[United Kingdom of Kent]

Farage won. Even the Guardian talked about the polls.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ope-winner

The Guardian saying Farage won.... Jesus didn't see that coming in a hundred years

[Lordieth]

I think Farage won the debate.

Not because of what he said, or how he handled himself. But because he's been given yet more credibility as an alternative to the liberal democrats. Just giving him another platform has been a victory for UKIP.

In terms of the actual content, I think Farage just edged past Clegg. Clegg sounds far too apologetic, and while he did make some good points, they were not backed up by anything substantial. If we leave this will happen. if we leave that will happen. Seemed the fear-mongering was coming from Clegg, not Farage.