Should Immigrants to the USA learn English?

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Then, why limit ourselves to English speakers, when English has nothing to do with their ability to function in society?

I think I have established that it does have an impact on their ability to function in society. If you seriously can't see how not being able to speak the native language would be a serious handicap, or how immigrants who know the native language would be preferable to immigrants who don't, then you are not worth my time.

You haven't...at all.


First, not speaking is a handicap to living in America, but a bearable one, given that many Americans can function in American society, and contribute to the American economy, directly or indirectly, without knowing a single word in the language.

Secondly, there is nothing that compels us to favour an immigrant that speaks the language over one that doesn't, both, in utilitarian terms, are able to perform the same work for the same age, are equally employable, or else have a better record. If I had to choose between a penniless crippled old man, who has no chance of being employed to our profit, who can speak English, over a young man, who can't speak English, but is in the prime of his health, and has a thoroughly clean record, I would choose the younger man, simply because he would garner more for me. We don't discriminate against immigrants in this way, but, such discriminations would be more reasonable than your criteria that 'they should speak English'.

[Norstal]

Yes and yes. Compulsory and paid by the taxpayers.

Says the libertarian. That'd cause a increase in taxes, you know.

Honestly, I wouldn't waste my tax money on something so foolish. Learning English as an immigrant is beneficial, but it doesn't harm anyone, but themselves, if they don't learn it. That being said, often times it doesn't even harm them.

Are you saying tax money on educating immigrants English is foolish or spending money on making it compulsory is foolish?

[Libertarian California]

So how would teaching English harm them?

It doesn't harm them. But they shouldn't be forced to learn it if they don't wish to.

It's mostly a moot point, though. Most immigrants learn English, in time, anyway. But those who don't wish to learn English, which are in their minority, shouldn't be forced to learn it if they don't want to.

I have not once said they should be forced to learn anything.

All I've said is that they should learn English, not that they must learn English.

[Nostenland]

They should at least give it a shot, for their own sakes.

[The Scientific States]

I'm not saying integration is bad, it just shouldn't be forced. There are other ways of doing so. Not to mention, you claimed that Britain is a mess because of a lack of integration, it's really not.

What other ways would you advocate? People don't generally integrate by themselves, such is the reason why there are little communities of Asians, Arabs, and Europeans.

For one, integration does occur over time. Encouraging it. Not forcing it. It's as simple as that.

I'm aware, however, those communities aren't inherently bad.

[The Scientific States]

Says the libertarian. That'd cause a increase in taxes, you know.

Honestly, I wouldn't waste my tax money on something so foolish. Learning English as an immigrant is beneficial, but it doesn't harm anyone, but themselves, if they don't learn it. That being said, often times it doesn't even harm them.

Are you saying tax money on educating immigrants English is foolish or spending money on making it compulsory is foolish?

The latter, of course.

[Libertarian California]

Not knowing English severely undercuts your competitiveness in the Anglosphere's largest economy. It is basically an unspoken prerequisite for most skilled (and a lot of unskilled) labor in this country.

State encroachment? Authoritarian? Xenophobia? What?

He supports unlimited immigration, because it depresses wages, which is (in his mind) a wonderful thing. To him, anything else is communism and authoritarianism.

I believe in another thread, he actually said that illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage is actually a good thing.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Only, getting a job doesn't require you to know English, and most are able to hold jobs without knowing English at all.

Thus, your justification for more state enthroachment on the individual liberties is completely authoritarian and only justified by a remarkably unlibertarian xenophobia.

Not knowing English severely undercuts your competitiveness in the Anglosphere's largest economy. It is basically an unspoken prerequisite for most skilled (and a lot of unskilled) labor in this country.

State encroachment? Authoritarian? Xenophobia? What?

Well, yes, no one is saying that it isn't wise for them to learn English, but that it does not make them unemployable. They can learn English on their own time, or, should they so wish, not learn English at all.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It doesn't harm them. But they shouldn't be forced to learn it if they don't wish to.

It's mostly a moot point, though. Most immigrants learn English, in time, anyway. But those who don't wish to learn English, which are in their minority, shouldn't be forced to learn it if they don't want to.

I have not once said they should be forced to learn anything.

All I've said is that they should learn English, not that they must learn English.

You seem to think that not knowing English prevents them from working or something. Even being competitive. The truth is that they are as employable as anybody else. Especially if the jobs they want, do not require direct communication with costumers and the like.

Besides, the EEOC clearly states that unless required, English is not a must in all jobs.

[Mushet]

Aren't most of the people who come to the US and don't learn English within a few years pretty old and it's hard for them to catch onto the new language, and they raise their kids to help them translate? What's the big deal?

[Viritica]

What other ways would you advocate? People don't generally integrate by themselves, such is the reason why there are little communities of Asians, Arabs, and Europeans.

For one, integration does occur over time. Encouraging it. Not forcing it. It's as simple as that.

I'm aware, however, those communities aren't inherently bad.

No one's saying they're inherently bad, but if people don't integrate it can lead to racial tension.

Just look at Yugoslavia. It was a nation of multiple ethnicities and they all hated each other. Eventually the nation dissolved into the cesspool you have now.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

But it's xenophobic to ask people to speak the language of a country, man!

Yeah man, you're right! Don't let the man keep you down, man!

Right Wing mutual masturbation.

Now, how do you refute the fact that english is hardly a requirement for employment, and many times does not serve as an impedement?

[The Scientific States]

He supports unlimited immigration, because it depresses wages, which is (in his mind) a wonderful thing. To him, anything else is communism and authoritarianism.

I believe in another thread, he actually said that illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage is actually a good thing.

Wat. That's pretty terrible. The reality of illegal immigration is bad, they often times can't have a steady job, can't drive, because if they're pulled over they know they'll be deported, and must "lay low." We really need a pathway to citizenship for illegals, but that's for another thread.

[Pilotto]

I think I have established that it does have an impact on their ability to function in society. If you seriously can't see how not being able to speak the native language would be a serious handicap, or how immigrants who know the native language would be preferable to immigrants who don't, then you are not worth my time.

You haven't...at all.


First, not speaking is a handicap to living in America, but a bearable one, given that many Americans can function in American society, and contribute to the American economy, directly or indirectly, without knowing a single word in the language.

Secondly, there is nothing that compels us to favour an immigrant that speaks the language over one that doesn't, both, in utilitarian terms, are able to perform the same work for the same age, are equally employable, or else have a better record. If I had to choose between a penniless crippled old man, who has no chance of being employed to our profit, who can speak English, over a young man, who can't speak English, but is in the prime of his health, and has a thoroughly clean record, I would choose the younger man, simply because he would garner more for me. We don't discriminate against immigrants in this way, but, such discriminations would be more reasonable than your criteria that 'they should speak English'.

First off, you admit that it is a handicap to not be able to speak English. So, when we are selectively choosing who gets to come here, why don't we try to accept people without this handicap? And you seem to thing that whether or not you speak English should be the only criteria. Why would it be? There are lots of other things to consider as well. You want to accept people who are likely to be highly functional members of society. That is very difficult, nearly impossible, if you do not know English.

[Merconitonitopia]

Of course.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

He supports unlimited immigration, because it depresses wages, which is (in his mind) a wonderful thing. To him, anything else is communism and authoritarianism.

I believe in another thread, he actually said that illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage is actually a good thing.

I have, and I agree with Milton Friedman that we should not have the minimum wage at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk

[The Scientific States]

Yeah man, you're right! Don't let the man keep you down, man!

Right Wing mutual masturbation.

Now, how do you refute the fact that english is hardly a requirement for employment, and many times does not serve as an impedement?

I agree that requiring immigrants to learn English is a bad thing, but your argument is really lacking. Stop yelling "right wing masturbation" and "xenophobia."

You disagree with them, debate them, don't make false claims.

[America Libertaria]

No it isn't. Teaching people English makes them more competitive and thus more likely to get a job, so that they can then pay taxes.

Unless you think having masses of unemployed foreigners is a good idea.

No one is arguing that immigrants shouldn't learn English. They shouldn't be forced. Besides, it's not like not knowing English prevents them from working. It has been said enough in this thread that non-English speaking immigrants hold jobs, every day. And they pay taxes. I've seen the tax forms in as many languages as the colors of the rainbow. Services in the US are given in several languages other than English.

Not learning the language of the country you immigrated to is an immense failure in terms of assimilation. When a nation starts to become filled with people of foreign cultures not only does it erode the native culture, but it helps fuel immense racial and cultural tension. I'm
getting tired of hearing the same old "Diversity is good! Hooray for multiculturalism!" crap. The truth is diversity and multiculturalism are not good nor healthy for a community. I mean seriously go to any modern day American city and you will be able to clearly see this. The government should offer free and compulsory language and assimilation courses for our immigrants, which we should keep to a limit.

[Libertarian California]

I believe in another thread, he actually said that illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage is actually a good thing.

I have, and I agree with Milton Friedman that we should not have the minimum wage at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk

You should hear what Rothbard had to say on immigration, if you want to have a battle of the Austrians.

[The Scientific States]

You haven't...at all.


First, not speaking is a handicap to living in America, but a bearable one, given that many Americans can function in American society, and contribute to the American economy, directly or indirectly, without knowing a single word in the language.

Secondly, there is nothing that compels us to favour an immigrant that speaks the language over one that doesn't, both, in utilitarian terms, are able to perform the same work for the same age, are equally employable, or else have a better record. If I had to choose between a penniless crippled old man, who has no chance of being employed to our profit, who can speak English, over a young man, who can't speak English, but is in the prime of his health, and has a thoroughly clean record, I would choose the younger man, simply because he would garner more for me. We don't discriminate against immigrants in this way, but, such discriminations would be more reasonable than your criteria that 'they should speak English'.

First off, you admit that it is a handicap to not be able to speak English. So, when we are selectively choosing who gets to come here, why don't we try to accept people without this handicap. And you seem to thing that whether or not you speak English should be the only criteria. Why would it be? There are lots of other things to consider as well. You want to accept people who are likely to be highly functional members of society. That is very difficult, nearly impossible, if you do not know English.

Why should we selectively choose? As I asked you earlier, you act if citizenship should only be given to a select few, but you never answered that post.

Either that, or I never saw your response.

[Norstal]

For one, integration does occur over time. Encouraging it. Not forcing it. It's as simple as that.

I'm aware, however, those communities aren't inherently bad.

No one's saying they're inherently bad, but if people don't integrate it can lead to racial tension.

Just look at Yugoslavia. It was a nation of multiple ethnicities and they all hated each other. Eventually the nation dissolved into the cesspool you have now.

We have Chinatown in San Francisco and there hasn't been a (Chinese) race riot.

I go to Chinese markets because that's the only place where I can get spices and herbs from Asia. It has fuck all to do with me not wanting to integrate in the U.S. I just need my goddamn ingredients.

[The Scientific States]

No one is arguing that immigrants shouldn't learn English. They shouldn't be forced. Besides, it's not like not knowing English prevents them from working. It has been said enough in this thread that non-English speaking immigrants hold jobs, every day. And they pay taxes. I've seen the tax forms in as many languages as the colors of the rainbow. Services in the US are given in several languages other than English.

Not learning the language of the country you immigrated to is an immense failure in terms of assimilation. When a nation starts to become filled with people of foreign cultures not only does it erode the native culture, but it helps fuel immense racial and cultural tension. I'm
getting tired of hearing the same old "Diversity is good! Hooray for multiculturalism!" crap. The truth is diversity and multiculturalism are not good nor healthy for a community. I mean seriously go to any modern day American city and you will be able to clearly see this. The government should offer free and compulsory language and assimilation courses for our immigrants, which we should keep to a limit.

Free? Yes. Encouraged? Yes. Compulsory? No.

Immigration shouldn't be kept to a limit, not only does it benefit our economy, it benefits them. They move to America, often through dangerous methods, just for a better opportunity. If they want to be here that badly, let them in.

[Viritica]

Right Wing mutual masturbation.

Now, how do you refute the fact that english is hardly a requirement for employment, and many times does not serve as an impedement?

I agree that requiring immigrants to learn English is a bad thing, but your argument is really lacking. Stop yelling "right wing masturbation" and "xenophobia."

You disagree with them, debate them, don't make false claims.

Thank you.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No one is arguing that immigrants shouldn't learn English. They shouldn't be forced. Besides, it's not like not knowing English prevents them from working. It has been said enough in this thread that non-English speaking immigrants hold jobs, every day. And they pay taxes. I've seen the tax forms in as many languages as the colors of the rainbow. Services in the US are given in several languages other than English.

Not learning the language of the country you immigrated to is an immense failure in terms of assimilation. When a nation starts to become filled with people of foreign cultures not only does it erode the native culture, but it helps fuel immense racial and cultural tension. I'm
getting tired of hearing the same old "Diversity is good! Hooray for multiculturalism!" crap. The truth is diversity and multiculturalism are not good nor healthy for a community. I mean seriously go to any modern day American city and you will be able to clearly see this. The government should offer free and compulsory language and assimilation courses for our immigrants, which we should keep to a limit.

Erosion of what culture? American culture? A culture that is an amalgamation of many different immigrant cultures?

And I have said it several times already. Immigrants should learn the language of the country they emigrate to. But forcing them to is not the way. If anything, what that, compulsory education in English, may do is force them into isolation out of anger.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

You haven't...at all.


First, not speaking is a handicap to living in America, but a bearable one, given that many Americans can function in American society, and contribute to the American economy, directly or indirectly, without knowing a single word in the language.

Secondly, there is nothing that compels us to favour an immigrant that speaks the language over one that doesn't, both, in utilitarian terms, are able to perform the same work for the same age, are equally employable, or else have a better record. If I had to choose between a penniless crippled old man, who has no chance of being employed to our profit, who can speak English, over a young man, who can't speak English, but is in the prime of his health, and has a thoroughly clean record, I would choose the younger man, simply because he would garner more for me. We don't discriminate against immigrants in this way, but, such discriminations would be more reasonable than your criteria that 'they should speak English'.

First off, you admit that it is a handicap to not be able to speak English. So, when we are selectively choosing who gets to come here, why don't we try to accept people without this handicap.

Because it is unfounded, it does not offer any severe degree of handicap, and many time it is preferable to choose someone who would prove to be a better citizen that does not speak English than one that does.

And you seem to think that whether or not you speak English should be the only criteria.

Fixed, and I don't. I don't think it should be a criteria at all.

Why would it be? There are lots of other things to consider as well. You want to accept people who are likely to be highly functional members of society. That is very difficult, nearly impossible, if you do not know English.

Again, English is not an indication of their functionality, their education (which does tie in with the ability to speak English, but not necessarily), the age, their health, their overall employability would play a much bigger role than the ability to speak English.